Butch5 said:

I have studied the word spirit. I had to to understand what a man is. The Greek and Hebrews words literally means wind and by extension breath. When you see the English word spirit it is a figure of speech. This word is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians about this subject. So, if I am a wind, what does that mean? The Bible says I am dust, not wind. The Bible says God is wind.

One problem that we have is that our translators have used this word spirit to translate, neshamah, ruach, and pneuma. These words all mean wind. They are sometimes used as a figure of speech to describe angels and demons. What happens is that people assume that because the English word spirit usually denotes a disembodied consciousness, these Greek and Hebrew words must mean a disembodied consciousness. What they've done is take a figure of speech and imported that idea as the literal definition of these words. However, these words have no such meaning. In the Bible angels and demons are called winds, which is translated spirits. However, this is a figure of speech. They are called winds because they have similar traits. In John Jesus said the wind blows where it will, you don't know where it comes from nor where it goes. but, you can see the effects of it. Well, it's the same with angels and demons. They come and go as they will and you don't know where they come from or where they are going. However, when they interact with the physical world you can see their effects.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

In this passage the words wind and Spirit are both the same Greek word, pneuma. Why do you suppose the translators used two different words for the same Greek word in this sentence? Could it be translator bias? Did they translate it based on what they already believe? Why not translate it wind in both cases and let the reader decide if it's a figure of speech or not?
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Butch5 said:

I have studied the word spirit. I had to to understand what a man is. The Greek and Hebrews words literally means wind and by extension breath. When you see the English word spirit it is a figure of speech. This word is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians about this subject. So, if I am a wind, what does that mean? The Bible says I am dust, not wind. The Bible says God is wind.

One problem that we have is that our translators have used this word spirit to translate, neshamah, ruach, and pneuma. These words all mean wind. They are sometimes used as a figure of speech to describe angels and demons. What happens is that people assume that because the English word spirit usually denotes a disembodied consciousness, these Greek and Hebrew words must mean a disembodied consciousness. What they've done is take a figure of speech and imported that idea as the literal definition of these words. However, these words have no such meaning. In the Bible angels and demons are called winds, which is translated spirits. However, this is a figure of speech. They are called winds because they have similar traits. In John Jesus said the wind blows where it will, you don't know where it comes from nor where it goes. but, you can see the effects of it. Well, it's the same with angels and demons. They come and go as they will and you don't know where they come from or where they are going. However, when they interact with the physical world you can see their effects.



In this passage the words wind and Spirit are both the same Greek word, pneuma. Why do you suppose the translators used two different words for the same Greek word in this sentence? Could it be translator bias? Did they translate it based on what they already believe? Why not translate it wind in both cases and let the reader decide if it's a figure of speech or not?

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Butch....again you misunderstand. I did not suggest you study the word 'spirit' You ARE a spririt...Let the Holy Spirit teach your spirit....You want to understand what a man is....Man is a spirit...Not complicated. You have been made a similar type creature to God...You are like Him. You are a triune being as He is...The difference being all three parts are in one package..
Pnuma also means breath...as in LIFE. Don't forget that. God breathed His life into you! What do you have if you no longer have His life? All your body is is a lump of dirt. Your spirit needs His life even more. Without Him we are DEAD! But still moving....

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Butch5 said:

I have studied the word spirit. I had to to understand what a man is. The Greek and Hebrews words literally means wind and by extension breath. When you see the English word spirit it is a figure of speech. This word is one of the reasons there is so much confusion among Christians about this subject. So, if I am a wind, what does that mean? The Bible says I am dust, not wind. The Bible says God is wind.

One problem that we have is that our translators have used this word spirit to translate, neshamah, ruach, and pneuma. These words all mean wind. They are sometimes used as a figure of speech to describe angels and demons. What happens is that people assume that because the English word spirit usually denotes a disembodied consciousness, these Greek and Hebrew words must mean a disembodied consciousness. What they've done is take a figure of speech and imported that idea as the literal definition of these words. However, these words have no such meaning. In the Bible angels and demons are called winds, which is translated spirits. However, this is a figure of speech. They are called winds because they have similar traits. In John Jesus said the wind blows where it will, you don't know where it comes from nor where it goes. but, you can see the effects of it. Well, it's the same with angels and demons. They come and go as they will and you don't know where they come from or where they are going. However, when they interact with the physical world you can see their effects.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

In this passage the words wind and Spirit are both the same Greek word, pneuma. Why do you suppose the translators used two different words for the same Greek word in this sentence? Could it be translator bias? Did they translate it based on what they already believe? Why not translate it wind in both cases and let the reader decide if it's a figure of speech or not?

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Admon Mikha'el said:

You too Chris...show me.

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Admon Mikha'el said:

Butch....again you misunderstand. I did not suggest you study the word 'spirit' You ARE a spririt...Let the Holy Spirit teach your spirit....You want to understand what a man is....Man is a spirit...Not complicated. You have been made a similar type creature to God...You are like Him. You are a triune being as He is...The difference being all three parts are in one package..
Pnuma also means breath...as in LIFE. Don't forget that. God breathed His life into you! What do you have if you no longer have His life? All your body is is a lump of dirt. Your spirit needs His life even more. Without Him we are DEAD! But still moving....

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Butch5 said:

The Scriptures don't say I'm a wind or breath, they say I'm dust. Moses said that God formed man from dust.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

God said Adam is dust.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God said man is flesh.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

There is nothing in Scripture that says man is breath or spirit. The only spirit we see connected with the creation of man is the breath or spirit of God which is something of God Himself and it's not man. Man can't be as spirit if there is no mention of a spirit in his creation. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says man is a spirit. That should send u red flags.

I agree that man needs God's breath or spirit in him to life, that's clear in Scripture.

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Dave M said:

it really as simple as this

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

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Admon Mikha'el said:

I'm done....You NEED the HOLY SPIRIT to teach you, and you NEED to LISTEN to Him

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Butch5 said:

How do you know He hasn't? What I've presented fits perfectly with Scripture. On the other hand the ETC argument doesn't. It is wrought with problems. That there are so many problems should be red flags. I would think the most important thing we can do as Christians is make sure we properly understand the Scriptures. If what we can't reconcile all of Scripture on a given subject then we have something wrong. It's only when we have harmony that we have come to a correct understanding.

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Butch5 said:

How do you know He hasn't? What I've presented fits perfectly with Scripture. On the other hand the ETC argument doesn't. It is wrought with problems. That there are so many problems should be red flags. I would think the most important thing we can do as Christians is make sure we properly understand the Scriptures. If what we can't reconcile all of Scripture on a given subject then we have something wrong. It's only when we have harmony that we have come to a correct understanding.

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Admon Mikha'el said:

A soul, person is NEVER destroyed...They go on forever....

The only problems with eternal punishment are on your side. The Word has no problems with it....Its just that you do not want to believe the Word...If the Holy Spirit had been teaching you...you would have no problems with it.
Do these scriptues say Hell is permanent? No. Do these scriptures say the Lake of Fire is permanent? Yes...And those that reside there? Permanently!


Matthew 25:41-46 King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.





2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 King James Version (KJV)
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

If you're going to claim to be right in everything...BE right. and you're not.

Now I'm out of here. I'm fading again

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Butch5 said:

You keep saying that a person isn't destroyed but you haven't given anything that says that. In these passages your argument is based on the word aion. We've been through that. We've shown that aion doesn't mean everlasting. But you've defeated your own argument here. In the passage from 2 Thess. It says aionios destruction. That shows us that they are destroyed. If it meant everlasting then their destruction is everlasting. In other words, they won't be coming back. It doesn't say everlasting destructing, it says everlasting destruction.

It's not Conditional Immortality that has problems with the Scriptures, it's ETC. According to the ETC doctrine the wicked will burn forever. However, God said the soul that sins shall die. Conditional Immortality agrees with this. ETC doesn't. According to ETC a sinner doesn't die, just their body dies, they live forever. But again, God said the soul that sins shall die, He didn't say the body that sins shall die.

The Lake of Fire is called the second death. Conditional Immortality agrees with this. A person dies, later is resurrected, and if wicked is cast into the Lake of Fire where they die again. ETC doesn't agree with this. ETC has to redefine the word death when it refers to the Lake of Fire because it doesn't believe that sinners die. ETC has to say the second death is separation from God. However, that doesn't make sense. For something to be the second one it must be like the first one. If I have an orange and I get a second orange, it's an orange. It's not a apple or a pear, it's an orange. Likewise, the second death has to be like the first death, thus it cannot be separation from God.

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Admon Mikha'el said:

Wow...I thought I was the one who is sick in the head...Are you as well? You point out that this word or that word is not in the Bible...Yet you use words that are not in t he bible. Aion is not in the bible. What's ETC? I said nothing about what you call conditional immortality. Let's do it this way...You need to remember that I AM sick, my cognition skills are dwindling. So please...Keep it simple....Dead means separated from God forever...Destroyed or destruction means the same. There is no conditional immortality...We are immortal because of Jesus' sacrifice, and because the Father adopted us, saved us and made us to live forever.
I have explained to you TWICE already that to be separated from LIFE is Death...Separation from life is destruction...The body still functions, the mind functions..But there is NOTHING good left in it. You can understand that...You're smart. Umm I'm lost..I'll stop here...

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Butch5 said:

Aion is in the Bible. It is the Greek word that is often (wrongly) translated forever or everlasting. ETC is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. It's the idea that people will burn in the Lake of Fire forever. Conditional Immortality is the doctrine I hold to. It says that man is a physical being and when he dies he is dead until the Resurrection. The believer will receive eternal life and the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will burn up and exist no more. Dead in any dictionary means the cessation of life. It doesn't mean separation from God. Man is not immortal. I've already given plenty of passages that show that. Paul tells us plainly that the Father alone is immortal.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

Here Paul tells us that Jesus will show the only one who has immortality, who no man has seen nor can see. That is the Father. He is the only one who has immortality. Man is not immortal.
Paul too tells us that he is mortal.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(1 Cor. 15:51-55 KJV)

Paul talks of being mortal. He speaks of putting on immortality at the Resurrection.

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Admon Mikha'el said:

Uh Okaaay....Since that contradicts the Word, I can only conclude that we no longer have any basis for conversation. The basis for what I share IS the bible...I don't know where you got what you share.

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Butch5 said:

The people in this passage are alive. Note the context.

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Butch5 said:

The people in this passage are alive. Note the context.

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:9-12 KJV)

The Mark of the Beast takes place during the Tribulation. The Greek word translated, here, means at that location. Notice that the saints are there. If this is eternal torment in the Lake of Fire why are the saints there? Do believers also get cast into the Lake of Fire?

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Jesus_is_LORD said:

I put together an excerpt from J.C Ryle's book on Holiness in which he talks about Hell.
This might help some. A little less than 10 minutes

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