Admon Mikha'el
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I seem to have a very short 'shelf life' before I wind down... I need to stop for a while. I'll be back. Later if not sooner LOL
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Anihilationism
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I seem to have a very short 'shelf life' before I wind down... I need to stop for a while. I'll be back. Later if not sooner LOL
Butch5
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The Bible tells us a good bit about God and His character. It tells us that He is just, He is righteous, and that He is love. It tells us that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It tells us that He is Holy, It tells us that He is good and that there is no darkness in Him. So, we see that God is the epitome of all that is good. On the other hand we have a doctrine that says God will torture the wicked for eternity. That He will never give them relief. In order to do this He must keep them alive for eternity, because contrary to popular belief man is not immortal. So we really need to look at this doctrine and how it reflects on God's character. I'd really be interested in hearing how people can reconcile this doctrine of infinite torture with a God who literally is said to be love, to be good, to be righteous, and to be holy.
Admon Mikha'el
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Simply put...God is NOT going to torture anybody....He does not do that...Anyone going to hell is choosing to follow Satan and his demons, so they follow him all the way. All God does is to allow those people their freedom of choice.
Butch5
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How do you figure that given that they have to be raised from the dead and then they have to be kept alive in order to suffer eternally? The only one who can keep them alive is God.
Admon Mikha'el
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Raised from the dead...They have spirit bodies which don't die..Just as soon as they stepped out of their flesh bodies they got those spirit bodies... so they don't have to be kept alive...they won't ever die in that sense, they already did. So they follow Satan to Satans eternal home...the lake of fire...the second death is eternal separation from God. So...They don't need to be kept alive, they are separated from God forever, and God has nothing to do with them...ever. It is given to man, once to die, and then, the judgment.
Butch5
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Spirit bodies? Do you believe in reincarnation? I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. If that's the case then no one lives on after death unless God keeps them alive. Paul said that God gives, present tense, life to all things. Again, if that's that the case then the only way one can live is if God gives them life. This idea of an immortal soul doesn't come from the Scriptures. Also, in order for the second death to be the second, it has to be like the first one. If it's different than the first one it's not the second, it's something different.
Admon Mikha'el
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Ok Let's start here...God is eternal He always was and will always be. We are immortal. We have a start and never die. We leave these bodies but WE do not die. We step out of these flesh bodies and into spirit bodies. Then we never pass through death again. We...hmmm You know? There is no place in the bible that says that our flesh bodies are raised up from the dead! It says "
11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. 14 Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire."
So our spirit bodies are suddenly standing before God to be judged for what we did, and off we go to be with God or to be with the devil, depending on your life. Our flesh bodies are dead and stay that way. "Thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return...So how are we raised up? The damned presently reside in Hell, Sheol, Hades ...all the same place, the waiting place of the damned. The Old Covenant saints and the dead in Christ are with the Father. So all those dead in hell are raised up to the presence of God to be judged...to eternal damnataion..
I strongly suggest that when you get into the Word, you listen to the Holy Spirit who has been given to us as a teacher...There is no better person to expound on the Word of God than God Himself.
Butch5
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I understand that's what you believe, however, that cannot be established from Scripture. As I stated, Paul said that the Father alone has immortality.
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)
Paul said the only one who has immortality is the one that no man has seen nor can see. That is the Father. That means that man is not immortal. Paul even says, this mortal must put on immortality.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor. 15:53-54 KJV)
God told Adam that he was dust. He didn't say his body was dust, He said, you are dust. He also said that man is flesh.
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)
He didn't say man's body is flesh, He said, he is flesh.
You said there is no place in the Bible that says bodies are raised up from the dead. Check out Ezekiel 37. It's the valley of dry bones and it's when Israel is raised up from the dead. It explicitly says that the bones come together and flesh comes upon them and God puts His breath in them and they live. See also Job 19:26.
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Job 19:25-26 KJV)
Job says that after his body is destroyed, in the end he, in the flesh, will see God. That's a raising up of the body.
Jesus is our prototype, He was raised bodily from the dead. He even showed Thomas the scars. I don't know where this idea of spiritual bodies comes from but it's not Biblical.
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Hello @Admon Mikha'el,
The Lord Jesus was clear as to the nature of His resurrection body, in Luke 24:36-41, and showed His disciples what it consisted of and how it operated, by allowing them to handle Him, and by eating and drinking with them. In doing so He showed that He was not a spirit, but consisted of flesh and bones, capable of functioning like their own.
It is only the resurrection power of God which can raise the believer from the dead, and this takes place at the resurrection. Until then God regards the believing dead to be 'asleep in Christ', unaware of the passage of time until they awake with His likeness.
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The Lord Jesus was clear as to the nature of His resurrection body, in Luke 24:36-41, and showed His disciples what it consisted of and how it operated, by allowing them to handle Him, and by eating and drinking with them. In doing so He showed that He was not a spirit, but consisted of flesh and bones, capable of functioning like their own.
It is only the resurrection power of God which can raise the believer from the dead, and this takes place at the resurrection. Until then God regards the believing dead to be 'asleep in Christ', unaware of the passage of time until they awake with His likeness.
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Brad Huber
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He is immortal in that He has no "beginning" nor end. Eternal. He however can grant eternal life from our moment of conception. Surely you know matter and energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be changed. It is the same with us. Our bodies can be changed to dust, but the energy, the Spirit, will only continue on even after death. The only possible conclusions are that we continue on for eternity.... or that we after many eons, if not given input from God, we lose the intelligence and soul and our energy disapates back into the Oneness of God or into usuable energy for God's purpose.
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'And this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life.'
(1 John 2:25)
Hi @Brad Huper,
Christ is our life. Eternal life can only be ours 'in Him'.
' If ye then be risen with Christ,
seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above,
not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You write: "Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire." Who do you think is doing the hurling? And what do you think they think is going to happen to the person in the lake of fire if they hurl the person into it?
Also, are you saying that "those people" use their freedom to choose to be tortured 24/7 for eternity? Why on earth would they do that?
Admon Mikha'el
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You're still missing it...There is a distinct difference between being eternal, and being immortal...God is not immortal.
The word 'immortall' that Paul used translates to 'everlasting' That is "Eternal" Immortal says you have a beginning and no end...The translators chose the wrong word. God is eternal, we are immortal.
immortal
[ ih-mawr-tl ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR immortal ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying: our immortal souls.
remembered or celebrated through all time: the immortal words of Lincoln.
not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting.
perpetual; lasting; constant:
eternal
[ ih-tur-nl ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR eternal ON THESAURUS.COM
adjective
without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (opposed to temporal): eternal life.
perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
enduring; immutable: eternal principles.
Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
noun
something that is eternal.
the Eternal, God.
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complete
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'That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings,
and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.'
(1 Timothy 6:14)
@Admon Mikha'el,
Hello there,
The word 'immortality' in 1 Timothy 6:14, is translated from the Greek word, 'athanasia' (G110), description = immortality (ie., deathlessness).
The Scriptures do not substantiate the belief that man has an immortal soul; for it says in Ezekiel 18:4 that 'the soul that sinneth it shall die'. If man is immortal, why does 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 tell us that 'mortality must put on immortality' at the resurrection? The soul is the whole man; that is a body energised by the breath of life (ie., spirit) (Genesis 2:7).
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in His times He shall shew,
Who is the blessed and only Potentate,
the King of kings,
and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality,
dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.'
(1 Timothy 6:14)
@Admon Mikha'el,
Hello there,
The word 'immortality' in 1 Timothy 6:14, is translated from the Greek word, 'athanasia' (G110), description = immortality (ie., deathlessness).
The Scriptures do not substantiate the belief that man has an immortal soul; for it says in Ezekiel 18:4 that 'the soul that sinneth it shall die'. If man is immortal, why does 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 tell us that 'mortality must put on immortality' at the resurrection? The soul is the whole man; that is a body energised by the breath of life (ie., spirit) (Genesis 2:7).
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Admon Mikha'el
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Why would anyone in their right minds vote for Biden/ Harris when they know they would destroy the United States...They're deceived....Satan deceived his followers...They don't believe that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire. They don't choose the lake of fire....They choose what they think is the winning side, no matter who. and they're wrong
Admon Mikha'el
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Man is a spirit, he has a soul, and he lives in a body....
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'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'
(Gen 2:7)
Hello @Admon Mikha'el,
I can see that you are fixed in your mind, and that you are not willing to consider the soul to be the whole person. However, I would ask you to look at the way that the word 'Soul' is used in Scripture, for that is the deciding factor. Sometimes the life of a man is referred to in this way, but for the majority of the time it is the whole person that is being referred to.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'
(Gen 2:7)
Hello @Admon Mikha'el,
I can see that you are fixed in your mind, and that you are not willing to consider the soul to be the whole person. However, I would ask you to look at the way that the word 'Soul' is used in Scripture, for that is the deciding factor. Sometimes the life of a man is referred to in this way, but for the majority of the time it is the whole person that is being referred to.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
B-A-C
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The Bible separates the body, mind, and spirit of man.
Eccl 2:3; I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.
Rom 7:23; but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
1Cor 14:14; For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1Cor 14:15; What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
The spirit is not the mind or the body.
Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
1Thes 5:23; Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Our spirit will remain, but our bodies will be changed.
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27; And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Eccl 2:3; I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.
Rom 7:23; but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
1Cor 14:14; For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1Cor 14:15; What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
The spirit is not the mind or the body.
Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
1Thes 5:23; Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Our spirit will remain, but our bodies will be changed.
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27; And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Butch5
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God could do that if He chose to. However, we find that His promise is to give life to those who believe, not those who don't believe. However, as I've shown from Scripture the apostle Paul states that man is mortal. God said that man is flesh. The flesh returns to the dust, that means the man returns to the dust. Thus he is not immortal.
According to Scripture, man was created from the dust. Thus he is dust. Then God breathed something of Himself into the man, that was the breath or spirit of life. When God did that there was a transformation and the man became a living soul. All three are mentioned and explained in Gen 2:7. The body, is the man, the spirit is something of God. it's not man. Those two together formed a living soul. If the breath or spirit of life is taken away, there is no soul. There is only a body, the man, which returns to dust. The spirit or breath which is something of God returns to Him. There is nothing left to live on. All three are accounted for.
Butch5
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Your argument is that man doesn't die but lives on after the body dies, That would immortal, even by the definitions you give here. However, as we've seen from Scripture the Father alone is immortal.
