Anihilationism

Sue D. · Dec 9, 2020

@Butch5 -- okay. The reasoning process. You're the one who brought in 'logic / logical fallacies'. So 'logic' is 'proper reasoning'. It's saying the same thing -- using different terminology.

The topic is 'anihilationism'. Whether or not a person ceases to exist when they die. No human being wants another person to suffer 'forever' unless they have problems , themselves. Even when a person has committed a horrible crime. At times the idea is that death is too good for that person, they Need to suffer as much as their victim suffered. Maybe it was kidnapping, torture and then death. And Then there's the idea that 'who wants to pay for their food and prison cell for a life in prison with no parole. SO -- let the person suffer for a while and Then they can cease to exist.

We can't picture God being someone who Could sentence a person He created to an eternity of suffering.

But -- Scripture tells us that God never intended for human beings to end up there. It's only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. We know who satan is, but the other two are speculations.

The Only reason that people will end up in the eternal lake of fire and brimstone is because they do Not do what God tells us to do. He provided mankind with salvation From that hell // lake of fire and brimstone // we Could all be spending eternity in Heaven / the New Jerusalem. But satan already knows what his future will be and he wants lots of company there. So satan tells us all kinds of lies to get us to join him and Then -- when it's too late -- we'll find out the truth. But it will be too late to change our minds.

So -- accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior. Or reject Him.

So -- having said all of 'this' -- a person Can use all sorts of 'reasoning' to try to support anihilationism. But it makes More sense to be prepared For eternity to be real and being spent either in Lake of fire and brimstone Or the New Jerusalem.

complete · Dec 9, 2020

Hi @Butch5,

I see that aion (Strongs G165) can be used for an indefinitely long period, of eternity (past or future) as in John 6:51 & John 9:32; or of a certain segment of time, an era or age (present or future) as in Matthew 12:32 or Mark 10:30, or can also be used of the material universe as the manifestation of the ages, ie., the aggregate of things contained in time as in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, and Matthew 24:3, where it is translated 'world'.

'for ever'- Matthew 6:13; 21:19; Mark 11:14; Luke 1:33,55; 6:51,58; 8:35(2), 51-52; John 12:34; 14:16; Rom. 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27;
'never' (lit. 'not for ever') - Mark 3:29; John 4:14; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8;
'world' (lit. 'from ever') - Luke 1:70; John 9:32; Acts 3:21; 15:18
'this (the) world' - Matthew: 13:22; 39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20; Mark 4:19; 10:30; Luke 16:8; 18:30; 20:34-35; Rom. 12:2; 1 Cor.1:20; 2:6(2),7-8; 3:18;
----------
'for ever' 'evermore' - 2 Cor.9:9; 11:31; Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20(2); 1 Tim.1:17(2); 2Tim.4:18; Heb.1:8; 5:6; 6:20; 7:17,21,24,28; 13:8,21(2); 1Pet.1:23,25;
'never' (lit. 'not for ever') -
'world' (lit. 'from ever') -
'this (the) world' - 1 Cor. 8:13; 10:11; 2 Cor.4:4; Gal.1:4; Eph.1:21; 3:9,21; 6:12; 1Tim.6:17; 2Tim. 4:10; Tit.2:12; Heb.1:2; Heb.6:5; 9:26; 11:3;
'the course of this world' - Eph. 2:2
'the age' 'ages' - Eph.2:7; Col.1:26;
'eternal' - Eph.3:11; 1 Tim.1:17;
----------
'for ever' 'evermore' - 1Pet.4:11(2); 5:11(2); 2 Pet.2:17; 3:18(2); 1 John 2:17; 2 John 2; Jude 13,25; Rev.1:6(2), 18; 4:9(2)-10; 5:13(2)-14; 7:12(2);
Rev. 10:6(2); 11:15(2); 14:11(2); 15:7(2); 19:3(2); 20:10(2); 22:5(2)

* There is also aionios (adjective) (Strongs G166) - 'eternal' or 'everlasting', either without beginning or end as in Romans 16:26; or without beginning, as in Romans 16:25; and 'without end' as in Hebrews 13:20 and John 3:16. We must let the context be our guide. I won't give the references to this for it is just too much to do, but worthy of study, as you have discovered.

Hope this helps sombody.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 9, 2020

Butch5 said:
No one is saying God's word is wrong. On the contrary, my argument is based on God's word being correct. What's in question is man's understanding of God's word. The original readers saw the word aion, not everlasting. How did they understand the word aion? Translators are the ones who say aion means forever. However, as we can see from Scripture they've made a mistake. Jesus spoke of the end of this aion. If this aion ends, how can it be forever? So, were left with this question, who better understands the word aion, Jesus or our translators? The apostles spoke of the end of this aion. So, we're left with this question, who better understood the word aion better, the apostles or our translators?

I think it's dangerous when we just blindly accept what translators, commentators, and pastors say. There was a time when I did that. It lead me to believe things that weren't true. No matter what translation or commentary we read, or what pastor we listen to, we're getting God's word filtered through the minds of men. How do we know those men correctly understand God's word? Even if we read the original languages, we're reading copies of God's word. We don't have the originals that were written by the apostles. Fortunately we have enough copies to compare to see what is the most accurate. I think every Christian should look into the translation process. It's an eye opener and I think it would show people that just blindly accepting what translators say isn't necessarily a good idea.

The word you used was 'aion' a Greek word Not the original....so, what does yomam v’lailah l’Olemei Olamim mean? It means forever and ever and ever and ever etc unending. If you want to talk about the original, you should stay with the original.

Sue D. · Dec 9, 2020

@Admon Mikha'el -- there's a message waiting for you in the 'conversation' area of the Forum.

complete · Dec 9, 2020

Admon Mikha'el said:
The word you used was 'aion' a Greek word Not the original....so, what does yomam v’lailah l’Olemei Olamim mean? It means forever and ever and ever and ever etc unending. If you want to talk about the original, you should stay with the original.

Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

@Butch5 did consider the Hebrew 'Olam' (goh-luhm) in an earlier post. (Strongs H5769), in reply#16. It is translated 'for ever', 'always', 'perpetual', 'everlasting' etc., but is translated by the Gr. aion.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 9, 2020

complete said:
Hello @Admon Mikha'el,

@Butch5 did consider the Hebrew 'Olam' (goh-luhm) in an earlier post. (Strongs H5769), in reply#16. It is translated 'for ever', 'always', 'perpetual', 'everlasting' etc., but is translated by the Gr. aion.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

LOL Fortunately we are not looking at the Greek...People make mistakes, even intelligent translators,

Primordial Light · Dec 9, 2020

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

No 'anhilationism' there.

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 9, 2020

Primordial Light said:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

No 'anhilationism' there.

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 9, 2020

Primordial Light said:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

No 'anhilationism' there.

Oops! What I wanted to say here is...IF you are saying here, what I think you are saying, then you are using one verse to contradict and entire bible.

Primordial Light · Dec 9, 2020

Admon Mikha'el said:
Oops! What I wanted to say here is...IF you are saying here, what I think you are saying, then you are using one verse to contradict and entire bible.

The entire Bible as you understand it.

Here is #2 -
II Cor 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The question is, do you teach the "word of reconciliation"?

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 9, 2020

Primordial Light said:
The entire Bible as you understand it.

Here is #2 -
II Cor 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The question is, do you teach the "word of reconciliation"?

How does this apply to the topic at hand?

complete · Dec 10, 2020

Primordial Light said:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

No 'anhilationism' there.

Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven,
.... and that are in earth,
...... visible and invisible,
........ whether they be thrones,
.......... or dominions,
............. or principalities,
................ or powers:
.................. all things were created by Him, and for Him:
And He is before all things,
and by Him all things consist.

And He is the head of the body, the church:
.. Who is the beginning,
.... the firstborn from the dead;
...... that in all things He might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;
.. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross,
.... by Him to reconcile all things unto Hmself;
...... by Him, I say,
........ whether they be things in earth,
.......... or things in heaven.'
(Colossians 1:15-20)

Hello @Primordial Light,

Thank you for referencing Colossians 1:20, for I do love this passage of Scripture. However, it has no bearing on the present subject concerning 'Annihilation-ism'. For the 'all things' do not include the unbelieving, as the testimony of all Scripture makes clear. If you take a verse out of it's context you can make it mean what you like, but that leads to error. It must be kept within it's context, and it's meaning must agree with the testimony of all Scripture. In Colossians chapter one, the 'all things' being referred to are those within that context. It is the preeminence of Christ which is the issue there, especially in regard to the Church which is His Body,' the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' of Ephesians 1:19-23.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hekuran · Dec 10, 2020

Primordial Light said:
The question is, do you teach the "word of reconciliation"?

That's a really interesting question well worth exploring -- would you consider opening another thread on this topic to discuss it fully, and keep this one on the topic of annihilationism.

twcstp111 · Dec 10, 2020

I'm going to recess this conversation; Anihilationism is among the most useless of conversations.

I will prove it with scripture:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

twcstp111 · Dec 10, 2020

Hekuran said:
That's a really interesting question well worth exploring -- would you consider opening another thread on this topic to discuss it fully, and keep this one on the topic of annihilationism.

'restoration'

reconcile to restore or restore to reconcile

one who was without must reconcile before they can restore;
one who was with must restore before they can reconcile

something like that, pretty much

Primordial Light · Dec 10, 2020

complete said:
Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven,
.... and that are in earth,
...... visible and invisible,
........ whether they be thrones,
.......... or dominions,
............. or principalities,
................ or powers:
.................. all things were created by Him, and for Him:
And He is before all things,
and by Him all things consist.

And He is the head of the body, the church:
.. Who is the beginning,
.... the firstborn from the dead;
...... that in all things He might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;
.. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross,
.... by Him to reconcile all things unto Hmself;
...... by Him, I say,
........ whether they be things in earth,
.......... or things in heaven.'
(Colossians 1:15-20)

Hello @Primordial Light,

Thank you for referencing Colossians 1:20, for I do love this passage of Scripture. However, it has no bearing on the present subject concerning 'Annihilation-ism'. For the 'all things' do not include the unbelieving, as the testimony of all Scripture makes clear. If you take a verse out of it's context you can make it mean what you like, but that leads to error. It must be kept within it's context, and it's meaning must agree with the testimony of all Scripture. In Colossians chapter one, the 'all things' being referred to are those within that context. It is the preeminence of Christ which is the issue there, especially in regard to the Church which is His Body,' the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' of Ephesians 1:19-23.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chrisly

You mentioned the "Unbelieving" are not included in Col 1:20.
I remain unpersuaded by your rationale - mainly because it is inconsistant with the Abrahamic Covenant.
Romans 11:32 should then have you rejoicing in the fact that the saving power of God is bigger than you have been taught -

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all".

Butch5 · Dec 10, 2020

complete said:
Hi @Butch5,

I see that aion (Strongs G165) can be used for an indefinitely long period, of eternity (past or future) as in John 6:51 & John 9:32; or of a certain segment of time, an era or age (present or future) as in Matthew 12:32 or Mark 10:30, or can also be used of the material universe as the manifestation of the ages, ie., the aggregate of things contained in time as in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, and Matthew 24:3, where it is translated 'world'.

'for ever'- Matthew 6:13; 21:19; Mark 11:14; Luke 1:33,55; 6:51,58; 8:35(2), 51-52; John 12:34; 14:16; Rom. 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27;
'never' (lit. 'not for ever') - Mark 3:29; John 4:14; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8;
'world' (lit. 'from ever') - Luke 1:70; John 9:32; Acts 3:21; 15:18
'this (the) world' - Matthew: 13:22; 39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20; Mark 4:19; 10:30; Luke 16:8; 18:30; 20:34-35; Rom. 12:2; 1 Cor.1:20; 2:6(2),7-8; 3:18;
----------
'for ever' 'evermore' - 2 Cor.9:9; 11:31; Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20(2); 1 Tim.1:17(2); 2Tim.4:18; Heb.1:8; 5:6; 6:20; 7:17,21,24,28; 13:8,21(2); 1Pet.1:23,25;
'never' (lit. 'not for ever') -
'world' (lit. 'from ever') -
'this (the) world' - 1 Cor. 8:13; 10:11; 2 Cor.4:4; Gal.1:4; Eph.1:21; 3:9,21; 6:12; 1Tim.6:17; 2Tim. 4:10; Tit.2:12; Heb.1:2; Heb.6:5; 9:26; 11:3;
'the course of this world' - Eph. 2:2
'the age' 'ages' - Eph.2:7; Col.1:26;
'eternal' - Eph.3:11; 1 Tim.1:17;
----------
'for ever' 'evermore' - 1Pet.4:11(2); 5:11(2); 2 Pet.2:17; 3:18(2); 1 John 2:17; 2 John 2; Jude 13,25; Rev.1:6(2), 18; 4:9(2)-10; 5:13(2)-14; 7:12(2);
Rev. 10:6(2); 11:15(2); 14:11(2); 15:7(2); 19:3(2); 20:10(2); 22:5(2)

* There is also aionios (adjective) (Strongs G166) - 'eternal' or 'everlasting', either without beginning or end as in Romans 16:26; or without beginning, as in Romans 16:25; and 'without end' as in Hebrews 13:20 and John 3:16. We must let the context be our guide. I won't give the references to this for it is just too much to do, but worthy of study, as you have discovered.

Hope this helps sombody.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris, I just don't see how aion or aionios, they're different forms of the same word, can possibly mean eternal when the Scriptures plainly says it ends. By definition something that ends cannot be eternal.

I agree with you that the context will determine the time, however, I think we need to make sure it is the context and not our presuppositions that we're using to determine the time.

Butch5 · Dec 10, 2020

Admon Mikha'el said:
The word you used was 'aion' a Greek word Not the original....so, what does yomam v’lailah l’Olemei Olamim mean? It means forever and ever and ever and ever etc unending. If you want to talk about the original, you should stay with the original.

I used the Greek word because that is the original from the passages that were quoted. I've also addressed the Hebrew. If you read through the tread you see.

Please show me how it means forever. Your statememt above, forever and ever and ever, please explain it. If forever means all eternity, what does "ever and ever" mean? There can't be anything more than eternity.

Admon Mikha'el · Dec 10, 2020

Butch5 said:
I used the Greek word because that is the original from the passages that were quoted. I've also addressed the Hebrew. If you read through the tread you see.

Please show me how it means forever. Your statememt above, forever and ever and ever, please explain it. If forever means all eternity, what does "ever and ever" mean? There can't be anything more than eternity.

Do you really want to play with semantics? I don't want to. So, I won't. I really do not have the time. I AM on a really limited time frame.

Butch5 · Dec 10, 2020

Primordial Light said:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

No 'anhilationism' there.

Please explain how this passage addresses the subject.

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Anihilationism

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