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Anihilationism

Butch5 said:
It is off topic. If you'd like to start a new thread I'd be happy to address it. I really would rather not derail this thread.
Click to expand...

It's only off topic if one can be annihilated, but the other can't. Since this thread is about annihilation.
 
Mark 9:4; Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

Matt 17:3; And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Moses died hundreds of years before this was written, was he annihilated?

Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Jesus will return "in the same way" as He left. When He left, did He have a flesh body?

Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
 
B-A-C said:
Jesus died around 2,000 years ago. Was He annihilated? Did He totally cease to exist?
Click to expand...

He died. However, we're told that He did not see corruption. He wasn't dead long enough to decay. Then He was resurrected. Most of the wicked have been or will be dead much longer, long enough to decay. They will all one day be resurrected. After the judgment those who don't believe will be cast into Gehenna and burned up.
 
2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9; Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
 
B-A-C said:
Mark 9:4; Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

Matt 17:3; And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Moses died hundreds of years before this was written, was he annihilated?

Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Jesus will return "in the same way" as He left. When He left, did He have a flesh body?

Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Click to expand...

It seems you're conflating two ideas. The annihilation or destruction comes after the Resurrection. Moses and Elijah died before the Resurrection, They did decay, or as Scripture says, returned to the dust. However, they still have the Resurrection to come
 
B-A-C said:
2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:7; for we walk by faith, not by sight—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:9; Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Click to expand...
What is the point you're making here?
 
Butch5 said:
He died. However, we're told that He did not see corruption. He wasn't dead long enough to decay. Then He was resurrected. Most of the wicked have been or will be dead much longer, long enough to decay. They will all one day be resurrected. After the judgment those who don't believe will be cast into Gehenna and burned up.
Click to expand...

OK, we agree He was resurrected. We also agree one day, everyone else will be resurrected. That's a start.
Gehenna is not the Lake of Fire, it is Hades. Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. People who's names are not written in the Book of Life, will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Hades is a temporary place, that will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
 
Butch5 said:
It seems you're conflating two ideas. The annihilation or destruction comes after the Resurrection. Moses and Elijah died before the Resurrection, They did decay, or as Scripture says, returned to the dust. However, they still have the Resurrection to come
Click to expand...

I agree, but this is an important point.

Jude 1:9; But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

A minor technicality, on Elijah, the Bible never says that he died, he was taken up to heaven. So I'm not sure he decayed either.
But for everyone else I agree. They decay. Yet they are all given another body, a spiritual body. Everyone is resurrected, even the non-believing wicked. ( John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; )
And the judgment takes place after this. But by then they already have an imperishable body. A new body, a different body.

1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

This new body is an "imperishable" body, it cannot die.
 
Butch5 said:
It's the idea that the "real man" is immaterial and able to live apart from the body, that the body is only a temporary dwelling. However, that's not what the Scriptures teach. They teach that man is from the dust of the ground with the breath of God giving him life. In this, man cannot live apart from the body.
Click to expand...

If the old body is decayed, and returns to the dust? Does that mean these people face the judgment without a body? If this is the case, wouldn't that mean they can live "without a body"?
 
B-A-C said:
OK, we agree He was resurrected. We also agree one day, everyone else will be resurrected. That's a start.
Gehenna is not the Lake of Fire, it is Hades. Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. People who's names are not written in the Book of Life, will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Hades is a temporary place, that will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Click to expand...

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that Gehenna is in fact the Lake of Fire described in the book of Reevaluation. If it's not the same place we have another dilemma. Jesus tells us that the wicked will be case into Gehenna. Revelation says they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. So, which is it? That's a problem. Also, before John wrote Revelation Christians didn't know anything about a Lake of Fire. They knew that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. None of the apostles knew anything about a Lake of Fire. Paul told the Ephesian elders.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:26-27 KJV)

Paul said he had declared to them the whole counsel of God. How can that be if the Lake of Fire is some new place that the wicked are going to be cast into? Unless Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are one and the same Paul didn't declare the whole counsel of God to them. Paul tells them he has declared all the counsel of God to them before there is any mention of a lake of fire. Likewise Jude speaks of the faith "once delivered" to the saints. So, when Jude wrote the faith was complete. How could it be complete if there is this new place called The Lake of Fire that has not yet been revealed?

Also, Revelation is a book full of symbolism. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem. If this valley was full of dead burning bodies what would it look like? A lake of fire.
 
Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hades is a temporary place that gets thrown into the permanent place, the Lake of Fire.

Butch5 said:
None of the apostles knew anything about a Lake of Fire.
Click to expand...

Apparently John did. Or whoever wrote Revelation.

Hades is just a waiting room until the judgment. The Lake of Fire is where the "second death" happens.
 
B-A-C said:
I agree, but this is an important point.

Jude 1:9; But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

A minor technicality, on Elijah, the Bible never says that he died, he was taken up to heaven. So I'm not sure he decayed either.
But for everyone else I agree. They decay. Yet they are all given another body, a spiritual body. Everyone is resurrected, even the non-believing wicked. ( John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; )
And the judgment takes place after this. But by then they already have an imperishable body. A new body, a different body.

1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

This new body is an "imperishable" body, it cannot die.
Click to expand...

That's actually a poor translation. Incorruptible is an accurate translation. However, it's the same body. It's not different. Notice verse 42, "it is sown a corruptible body it is raised an incorruptible body".

Also, It's not that the raised body cannot die, it's that God will continue to give it life. The Scriptures tell us that God gives life, present tense, is giving, life to all things. That means everything that is alive right now is alive because God is actively giving it life. Literally every breath we take is in God's hand. Jesus said in His Revelation to John that to those who overcome He would give to eat of the 'Tree of Life."

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

Why did Adam die? He lost access to the Tree of LIfe.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
(Gen. 3:22-23 KJV)

It's not that believers will be unable to die. It's that God has promised to give them life. Paul states plainly that the Father alone has immortality. He is the only one who cannot die.
 
B-A-C said:
Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hades is a temporary place that gets thrown into the permanent place, the Lake of Fire.



Apparently John did. Or whoever wrote Revelation.

Hades is just a waiting room until the judgment. The Lake of Fire is where the "second death" happens.
Click to expand...

John only knew about it after getting the Revelation. That was some 60 years after Christ's resurrection.
Hades is the grave. Death and the grave will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Obviously this is a metaphor to show that death and the grave will be no more.
 
1 Corinthians 15:42
(AMPC) So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal). [Dan_12:3]
(ASV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(CSB) So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
(ESV) So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
(GNB) This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.
(GW) That is how it will be when the dead come back to life. When the body is planted, it decays. When it comes back to life, it cannot decay.
(HCSB) So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
(ISV) This is how it will be at the resurrection of the dead. What is planted is decaying, what is raised cannot decay.
(KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(KJVA) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(MKJV) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
(MSG) This image of planting a dead seed and raising a live plant is a mere sketch at best, but perhaps it will help in approaching the mystery of the resurrection body—but only if you keep in mind that when we're raised, we're raised for good, alive forever!
(NAS77) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
(NASB) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
(NIrV) It will be like that with bodies that are raised from the dead. The body that is planted does not last forever. The body that is raised from the dead lasts forever.
(NIV) So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
(NLT) It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.

aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.
Total KJV occurrences: 8
 
B-A-C said:
1 Corinthians 15:42
(AMPC) So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal). [Dan_12:3]
(ASV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(CSB) So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
(ESV) So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
(GNB) This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.
(GW) That is how it will be when the dead come back to life. When the body is planted, it decays. When it comes back to life, it cannot decay.
(HCSB) So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
(ISV) This is how it will be at the resurrection of the dead. What is planted is decaying, what is raised cannot decay.
(KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(KJVA) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(MKJV) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
(MSG) This image of planting a dead seed and raising a live plant is a mere sketch at best, but perhaps it will help in approaching the mystery of the resurrection body—but only if you keep in mind that when we're raised, we're raised for good, alive forever!
(NAS77) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
(NASB) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
(NIrV) It will be like that with bodies that are raised from the dead. The body that is planted does not last forever. The body that is raised from the dead lasts forever.
(NIV) So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
(NLT) It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.

aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.
Total KJV occurrences: 8
Click to expand...

For some reason there is a concept that I'm not getting across. I've stated previously that translators, Theologians, lexicographers and the like all have biases. Everyone does. What a person believes in their Christian faith will determine how they translate, how they understand the Bible, how they define words. A dictionary is not "proof" of anything other than showing what the author thinks the word means, that's all. I'll give you an example. Evangelicals believe in one God in three persons and translate John 1, 'the Word was God'. Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in one God in three persons and they translate it 'the word was a god'. If they are right or wrong is not the issue. The point is that they translate it based on what they already believe. Most translation boards require that if you're going to work with them on a translation you must believe in the Trinity. So, they all agree. Of course all of their works will be the same. Suppose for a moment that the Trinity doctrine was wrong. How would anyone reading their translations ever know? They wouldn't, because the translators don't allow for dissension.

Another example of this is the words that are translated spirit. They literally mean breath or wind. They have nothing to do with the idea of a disembodied being as the English word spirit does. So, when people see this word spirit they impose this idea of a disembodied being onto the text. Remember, the people who were reading the Greek and Hebrew texts saw the word wind. Can you see how they and we would come to a completely different understanding of certain passages with this disparity in the definition of a single word.

If we want to know what a word really means we need to look at how that word is used throughout Scripture. It's funny how often people will say Scripture interprets Scripture, yet when that doesn't fit one's theology it gets tossed to the side. That's just another indication that people interpret Scripture based on what they already believe.

I would seriously encourage you and everyone else to take dictionaries and commentaries as a general guide that is susceptible to error. Remember, they don't prove anything other than the author's understanding of a word.
 
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