KingJ said:

You would not be a Christian if it didn't. We live daily hating and fighting sin.

Yes it is. But we have to differentiate between two types of disobedience.

1. Eating the forbidden fruit. Does it seem appropriate if God said to Adam, because you ate the fruit I told you not to eat, you will be punished in hell for all eternity? Just....because.....they ate a fruit.....from the wrong tree. God put that tree there. God put the serpent there.

2. Mortal sinners like murderers, pedophiles and rapists. Would anyone be surprised if God placed such a person in hell?

I believe that as humans know good and evil as God does Gen 3:22 and will never lose this ability. There is no reason for God to ever put another tree of good and evil in a garden with us. We ''know''. This knowledge is with us for all eternity. Hence we are able to sin at anytime we wish in heaven and for all eternity.

Not saying we love sin. If we loved sin we would not be grafted into God's family and en route to an eternity in heaven. I want to make it crystal clear that we retain free will to reject or accept sin for all eternity. God is not a tyrant that will demand His way or the highway on all matters.

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All sin that has ever been committed is done so because Adam ate the fruit. You cannot divide sin into two camps where one sends you to Hell and one does not. The human race went down to the simple disobedient act of eating a fruit. It is appropriate, because God had so planned it.

You say we can sin anytime we want in Heaven. Do you think God prepares a new Heaven and new Earth with the possibility of our sinning again? Do you think Christ can sin in Heaven? Why would Christ give us a body like His with the possibility of sinning? (Philippians 3:21) "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Actually God is quite the dictator. The world will understand this during the Millennium when Christ rules with a rod of iron. His way or the highway. There is nothing wrong with a dictator if the dictator is God. That is what we want.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

All sin that has ever been committed is done so because Adam ate the fruit. You cannot divide sin into two camps where one sends you to Hell and one does not. The human race went down to the simple disobedient act of eating a fruit. It is appropriate, because God had so planned it.

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Adam sin was the start of our sin. Angel's sin was a separate issue. Our sin is on us, not Adam. That is why we can go to hell.

Yes you can divide sin. Adam's sin got him excommunicated from the garden of Eden. The devil's sin got him kicked out of heaven and en route to the lake of fire. Unpardonable sin and sin unto death 1 John 5:16-17, Matt 12:22-32.

God split sins in the OT. Some sin got you stoned to death. Some sin got you excommunicated. Some sin got you a warning. God does not change. God is not a foolish mental case who see's sin with no degrees. The view of sin = sin opposes all scripture. Even many examples in the NT. Take Matt 5:28 vs Matt 5:32 as an example.

Quantrill said:

You say we can sin anytime we want in Heaven. Do you think God prepares a new Heaven and new Earth with the possibility of our sinning again? Do you think Christ can sin in Heaven? Why would Christ give us a body like His with the possibility of sinning? (Philippians 3:21) "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

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This is contentious. I am not going to say I am 100% certain that you are wrong and I am right. I am just chewing on the fact that God is not a tryant who forces His way or the highway. He leaves space for free will. We are perfect to God, not perfect like God. The new body spoken of in Phil 3:21 is speaking to a body that is not weak. It will not succumb to the lustful desires of the flesh. This does not mean our mind will not. We do not ever lose our will. Otherwise God should have made more monkey's and not humans.

Quantrill said:

Actually God is quite the dictator. The world will understand this during the Millennium when Christ rules with a rod of iron. His way or the highway. There is nothing wrong with a dictator if the dictator is God. That is what we want.

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God is not a dictator or tryant. You are using ''rod of iron'' at its extremity. Like saying daddy lion's big teeth is evidence of merciless parenting. Lions have big teeth but are teddy bears to their children and allow their brides to push them around.

The rod of iron speaks to God not budging on what is holy. What is RIGHT. He is never wicked. Never partial. What is holy and RIGHT is NOT tyrannical rule. You take rod of iron to push wicked ruler when it is evidence of the complete opposite. God's management style is hinted at in Matt 18:2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. God is the greatest, therefore God is the most humble in heaven.

God does not see all sin as extreme rebellion. God does not rule with a rod of iron in the millennium in context of absolutely no sin taking place. A proper reading of Micah 4 shows this.

KingJ said:

Adam sin was the start of our sin. Angel's sin was a separate issue. Our sin is on us, not Adam. That is why we can go to hell.

Yes you can divide sin. Adam's sin got him excommunicated from the garden of Eden. The devil's sin got him kicked out of heaven and en route to the lake of fire. Unpardonable sin and sin unto death 1 John 5:16-17, Matt 12:22-32.

God split sins in the OT. Some sin got you stoned to death. Some sin got you excommunicated. Some sin got you a warning. God does not change. God is not a foolish mental case who see's sin with no degrees. The view of sin = sin opposes all scripture. Even many examples in the NT. Take Matt 5:28 vs Matt 5:32 as an example.

This is contentious. I am not going to say I am 100% certain that you are wrong and I am right. I am just chewing on the fact that God is not a tryant who forces His way or the highway. He leaves space for free will. We are perfect to God, not perfect like God. The new body spoken of in Phil 3:21 is speaking to a body that is not weak. It will not succumb to the lustful desires of the flesh. This does not mean our mind will not. We do not ever lose our will. Otherwise God should have made more monkey's and not humans.

God is not a dictator or tryant. You are using ''rod of iron'' at its extremity. Like saying daddy lion's big teeth is evidence of merciless parenting. Lions have big teeth but are teddy bears to their children and allow their brides to push them around.

The rod of iron speaks to God not budging on what is holy. What is RIGHT. He is never wicked. Never partial. What is holy and RIGHT is NOT tyrannical rule. You take rod of iron to push wicked ruler when it is evidence of the complete opposite. God's management style is hinted at in Matt 18:2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. God is the greatest, therefore God is the most humble in heaven.

God does not see all sin as extreme rebellion. God does not rule with a rod of iron in the millennium in context of absolutely no sin taking place. A proper reading of Micah 4 shows this.

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Adam's sin and the sin of the angels, was all sin. The price was separation from God eternally. Adams sin is on us, which is why we sin. The results of sin are the same no matter where sin is found. Separation from God eternally.

All sin, any sin, will send one to Hell. Though there are degrees of sin in that some are worse sins than others, all sins send one to Hell. That's right...God does not change.

Of course it is contentious. I meant it to be. Yes we will have a will, but that will must always be in line with God's will or submissive to God's will. Never in opposition to God's will. The new body in (Philippians 3:21) is speaking of a body like Christ. And we will have completely in that day the mind of Christ in that we will no longer have our fleshly mind. (1 Cor. 2:14-16) (Rom. 8:27)

God is a dictator. It is His way or the highway. If it is not His way, whose way is it? God is not establishing a democracy. He is sole Ruler. And what He says will go, or you will go. That is good. Because God always rules righteously. What He does is always right and good. Your example with a lion and their cubs doesn't work. I haven't said that God will be merciless to His children. He is merciful in that He has brought us to Heaven already. You, for some reason, want to make us still sinners while we are there.

That's right....God will not budge. He is the Holy Dictator. I didn't say God was wicked. You assume I say that because I said God is a dictator. Of course God is the greatest. And God can be humble. That doesn't mean He doesn't always get His way. It is always His way.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

Adam's sin and the sin of the angels, was all sin. The price was separation from God eternally.

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Not true. Whilst wages of sin is death. God always knew He would make a plan for those sinners who repent. Abraham's bosom in the OT. Christians to heaven in the NT. Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4 for all repentant sinners.

If Jesus never died there would still be a separation of sinners in death. God would not throw Abraham's bosom into the lake of fire if it had people in it.

Quantrill said:

Adams sin is on us, which is why we sin.

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No its not. The result of Adam's sin is on us. Namely God removing Himself from earth.

We sin because we want to sin. If there was no fall of Adam sprouting wickedness all around us, it would just be a matter of time before we sin. God knew all mankind would inevitably sin. He 1. Created us beneath the angels who sinned, 2. He put the devil on earth. Wolves with big teeth lay with lambs in the garden of Eden.

You and I cannot blame Adam for any of our sin.

Quantrill said:

All sin, any sin, will send one to Hell. Though there are degrees of sin in that some are worse sins than others, all sins send one to Hell. That's right...God does not change.

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If by hell you infer lake of fire. Not true. As I have said there were sinners in Abraham's bosom. Abraham and the prophets that never died were sinners not en route to hell. Do you think God is mad? A madman will call sin, sin and send all to hell. ''Adam, you ate fruit from the forbidden tree, take your ticket to eternal fire and torment.....alongside Stalin''. That is like the worst discernment imaginable. You are literally implying that God is brain dead and wicked.

Quantrill said:

Of course it is contentious. I meant it to be. Yes we will have a will, but that will must always be in line with God's will or submissive to God's will. Never in opposition to God's will. The new body in (Philippians 3:21) is speaking of a body like Christ. And we will have completely in that day the mind of Christ in that we will no longer have our fleshly mind. (1 Cor. 2:14-16) (Rom. 8:27)

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We never lose our will. Human 101. Bride and groom 101. Relationship 101. What bride on this planet will agree with those terms and conditions your presume God demands? We get a new body. A renewed mind. We think a lot more like Christ. But we are never perfect like God. Only God is good and perfect Mark 10:18. Not angels. Not us in heaven. This perfection is epic miss reading of scripture. Wanting to be a perfect god is Satanism.

Quantrill said:

God is a dictator. It is His way or the highway. If it is not His way, whose way is it? God is not establishing a democracy. He is sole Ruler. And what He says will go, or you will go. That is good. Because God always rules righteously. What He does is always right and good. Your example with a lion and their cubs doesn't work. I haven't said that God will be merciless to His children. He is merciful in that He has brought us to Heaven already. You, for some reason, want to make us still sinners while we are there.

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Ruling correctly / righteously requires Him to accommodate a level of rebellion.

Quantrill said:

That's right....God will not budge. He is the Holy Dictator. I didn't say God was wicked. You assume I say that because I said God is a dictator. Of course God is the greatest. And God can be humble. That doesn't mean He doesn't always get His way. It is always His way.

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His way is to rule correctly. Which requires Him to respect free will. Free will is only free if there is opportunity, time and space to disobey God.

KingJ said:

Not true. Whilst wages of sin is death. God always knew He would make a plan for those sinners who repent. Abraham's bosom in the OT. Christians to heaven in the NT. Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4 for all repentant sinners.

If Jesus never died there would still be a separation of sinners in death. God would not throw Abraham's bosom into the lake of fire if it had people in it.

No its not. The result of Adam's sin is on us. Namely God removing Himself from earth.

We sin because we want to sin. If there was no fall of Adam sprouting wickedness all around us, it would just be a matter of time before we sin. God knew all mankind would inevitably sin. He 1. Created us beneath the angels who sinned, 2. He put the devil on earth. Wolves with big teeth lay with lambs in the garden of Eden.

You and I cannot blame Adam for any of our sin.

If by hell you infer lake of fire. Not true. As I have said there were sinners in Abraham's bosom. Abraham and the prophets that never died were sinners not en route to hell. Do you think God is mad? A madman will call sin, sin and send all to hell. ''Adam, you ate fruit from the forbidden tree, take your ticket to eternal fire and torment.....alongside Stalin''. That is like the worst discernment imaginable. You are literally implying that God is brain dead and wicked.

We never lose our will. Human 101. Bride and groom 101. Relationship 101. What bride on this planet will agree with those terms and conditions your presume God demands? We get a new body. A renewed mind. We think a lot more like Christ. But we are never perfect like God. Only God is good and perfect Mark 10:18. Not angels. Not us in heaven. This perfection is epic miss reading of scripture. Wanting to be a perfect god is Satanism.

Ruling correctly / righteously requires Him to accommodate a level of rebellion.

His way is to rule correctly. Which requires Him to respect free will. Free will is only free if there is opportunity, time and space to disobey God.

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It is true. All sin results in separation from God eternally. That a remedy was provided for man, doesn't change the affect of sin. I didn't say I blamed Adam. I said Adams sin is on us. And it is. This is why we sin. Neither did I say we are not responsible for our sin, we are. But that doesn't change the fact that we sin because of Adams sin.

The simple sin of disobedience of eating fruit from a tree caused the fall of Adam and Eve and the human race. Can't get anymore harmless than eating fruit. Yet they died. (Rom. 5:12) You will have to take it up with God, for He tells the whole story in (Genesis 3). No, I am not implying God is brain dead. You are. I am just saying what the Scripture says. And you are saying God can't be like that.

I never said we lose our will. You say we are not perfect. Yet God says we are the very righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21) Paul says we shall be glorious, having no spot or wrinkle or blemish. (Eph. 5:27) How can that be if we still sin? Plus Paul says we shall be made perfect just like Christ. (Eph. 4:13) (Philippians 3:21) All of this I have already showed you.

God does not accommodate rebellion. He is not required to accomodate rebellion. Yes He does rule correctly. Which means He does as He pleases. He does not 'respect' free will. He gives man a will and mans will is in line with his will or submissive to it. If mans will is in conflict with His will, judgement follows. Man is not free to disobey God. Man has a will and in Heaven God has brought man to a place where God's will and man's will are not in conflict.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

It is true. All sin results in separation from God eternally. That a remedy was provided for man, doesn't change the affect of sin. I didn't say I blamed Adam. I said Adams sin is on us. And it is. This is why we sin. Neither did I say we are not responsible for our sin, we are. But that doesn't change the fact that we sin because of Adams sin.

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If Adam never sinned, we would still have sinned. It is a moot point.

Quantrill said:

The simple sin of disobedience of eating fruit from a tree caused the fall of Adam and Eve and the human race. Can't get anymore harmless than eating fruit. Yet they died. (Rom. 5:12) You will have to take it up with God, for He tells the whole story in (Genesis 3). No, I am not implying God is brain dead. You are. I am just saying what the Scripture says. And you are saying God can't be like that.

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God differentiates between death as in temporal separation and death as in eternal lake of fire. When you suggest God would eternally separate someone just because they ate a fruit from the wrong tree, that is suggesting God has the discernment of a mad person. Just go ask any judge. Ask them if they sentence a thief who stole candy the same as a rapist.

Take it up with God? I don't need to. His word says I must judge properly in 1 Cor 6:1-8. Paul basically rebukes those who go before the worldly court as we should be able to better discern. He also gives me 1 Cor 11:31 ''If I judged myself I would not be judged''. God is all for us judging ourselves and Him. He wants us to grasp that He is good Eph 3:18.

Now you come along and say I cannot judge and grasp God is good. Gen 3:22 says I can grasp good and evil. My ability to grasp good and evil and every other sane person on this planet will agree with me that a God who sentences a person who just took a fruit from the wrong tree to the same eternal punishment as a rapist is a mental case. God is not a mental case. His word is full of examples of His wrath only coming on those whose sin was full measure. People who are sold out to sin.

I truly can't stand how so many think and teach we must just accept clear wickedness as God is God. Who are we to question Him. Interrogating Him is what He wants!!! He wants a bride!! Lets not miss-represent Him to others.

Quantrill said:

I never said we lose our will. You say we are not perfect. Yet God says we are the very righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21) Paul says we shall be glorious, having no spot or wrinkle or blemish. (Eph. 5:27) How can that be if we still sin? Plus Paul says we shall be made perfect just like Christ. (Eph. 4:13) (Philippians 3:21) All of this I have already showed you.

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Why does Jesus say in Mark 10:18 that only God is good?

The context of those verses has to be that we are perfect to God. Just as Jesus is perfect to God. This does not mean we are perfect like God. For that we would need to be a god.

Quantrill said:

God does not accommodate rebellion. He is not required to accomodate rebellion. Yes He does rule correctly. Which means He does as He pleases. He does not 'respect' free will. He gives man a will and mans will is in line with his will or submissive to it. If mans will is in conflict with His will, judgement follows. Man is not free to disobey God. Man has a will and in Heaven God has brought man to a place where God's will and man's will are not in conflict.

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It is impossible for two wills to not be in conflict unless there is tyranny. You cannot win this discussion. Your statement is wrong. If you did a poll among all the sane people of the earth, they would agree with me. Why is it that some Christians go mad in defense of what all would judge the actions of a wicked God? God is not wicked. We need to work backwards from that truth.

KingJ said:

If Adam never sinned, we would still have sinned. It is a moot point.

God differentiates between death as in temporal separation and death as in eternal lake of fire. When you suggest God would eternally separate someone just because they ate a fruit from the wrong tree, that is suggesting God has the discernment of a mad person. Just go ask any judge. Ask them if they sentence a thief who stole candy the same as a rapist.

Take it up with God? I don't need to. His word says I must judge properly in 1 Cor 6:1-8. Paul basically rebukes those who go before the worldly court as we should be able to better discern. He also gives me 1 Cor 11:31 ''If I judged myself I would not be judged''. God is all for us judging ourselves and Him. He wants us to grasp that He is good Eph 3:18.

Now you come along and say I cannot judge and grasp God is good. Gen 3:22 says I can grasp good and evil. My ability to grasp good and evil and every other sane person on this planet will agree with me that a God who sentences a person who just took a fruit from the wrong tree to the same eternal punishment as a rapist is a mental case. God is not a mental case. His word is full of examples of His wrath only coming on those whose sin was full measure. People who are sold out to sin.

I truly can't stand how so many think and teach we must just accept clear wickedness as God is God. Who are we to question Him. Interrogating Him is what He wants!!! He wants a bride!! Lets not miss-represent Him to others.

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It is not a moot point. The point is that we are sinners because of Adam's sin. We are responsible for our sins, yet we are sinners due to Adam's sin. This is what you don't want to recognize. We sin because we are sinners. Not, we are sinners because we sin. And we are sinners because of Adam's sin.

Due to Adam's sin, the human race fell. Correct? Look at all the grief and hell that has come about due to just eating of the fruit. Are you saying God is mad for having such a terrible sentence of death inflicted upon the human race due to eating of the fruit. (Gen. 2:17) "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And they did. As did the whole race of Adam. (Rom. 5:12) I didn't tell you to go before a 'worldly court'. I told you take it up with God as He is the One who wrote the Book. Read it...(Gen. 3).


Well, you do need to take it up with God because your judgement is contrary to Scripture, the Word of God.

I never said you couldn't judge that God is good. Your judgement is flawed however because you are judging God on your goodness...your flawed worldly goodnes. God is good and because He is good He allowed the sin of Adam to fall upon the whole race of Adam. That sin of eating the fruit is the cause of all rapes, murders, homosexualtiy, idolotry, and any other horrible sin you can imagine. The one simple disobedient act did all that.

Just because God delays His immediate judgement upon anyone's sin and let's them store it up for future judgement, doesn't mean that sin is not enough to send one to Hell or to require the just judgement of God. It is and it does. God stores it up so that He can give a full measure of judgement when the time comes. All the while the possibility is there for the person to repent and turn to God. But alas, usually it works out that because God does not inflict an immediate judgement upon a sin, then everyone thinks it is not that big a deal. (Ecc. 8:11) "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."

Your last statement makes little sense.

Quantrill

KingJ said:

Why does Jesus say in Mark 10:18 that only God is good?

The context of those verses has to be that we are perfect to God. Just as Jesus is perfect to God. This does not mean we are perfect like God. For that we would need to be a god.



It is impossible for two wills to not be in conflict unless there is tyranny. You cannot win this discussion. Your statement is wrong. If you did a poll among all the sane people of the earth, they would agree with me. Why is it that some Christians go mad in defense of what all would judge the actions of a wicked God? God is not wicked. We need to work backwards from that truth.

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Of course only God is good. Yet you want to judge God by your flawed worldly goodness.

We are perfect to God because God will make us perfect, without sin, the very righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21) How can we be the righteousness of God and still be sinners? We can't. The context doesn't 'have to be' anything. The context is what it is. You are judging context by what you want to force on the Scripture. Because you believe this way, then that must be saying this. Poor practice. (Eph. 5:27) says we shall be holy and without blemish. Yet you say we are still sinners. (Philippians 3:21) says our new bodies will be like Christ's glorious body. Yet you say we will still sin.



Jesus has a will, and His will is always in line with the Fathers will, or submissive to it. And we will be like Jesus. Well, most sane people on earth are going to Hell, so your poll is on fire. I never said God is wicked. You are accusing me of that, but I never said that. Indeed you are working backwards. You are interpreting God and the Scriptures with your flawed sense of goodness.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

We are responsible for our sins, yet we are sinners due to Adam's sin. This is what you don't want to recognize.

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If Adam never sinned would we still sin? Yes. Moot argument.

Quantrill said:

Due to Adam's sin, the human race fell. Correct? Look at all the grief and hell that has come about due to just eating of the fruit. Are you saying God is mad for having such a terrible sentence of death inflicted upon the human race due to eating of the fruit. (Gen. 2:17) "...in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And they did. As did the whole race of Adam. (Rom. 5:12) I didn't tell you to go before a 'worldly court'. I told you take it up with God as He is the One who wrote the Book. Read it...(Gen. 3).

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You are miss representing His book. His book says '''Adam and Eve's '''death'' was banishment to earth as we know it''. Not the lake of fire or annihilation as one who reads sin as sin would assume, given that the lake of fire is the devils fate for his sin that got him cast out of heaven.

Quantrill said:

Well, you do need to take it up with God because your judgement is contrary to Scripture, the Word of God.

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How is it contrary? Paul rebukes someone like you who does not discern in 1 Cor 6:1-8.

Quantrill said:

I never said you couldn't judge that God is good. Your judgement is flawed however because you are judging God on your goodness...your flawed worldly goodnes.

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Gen 3:22 says otherwise. Do you think my judgement is corrupted since I won't give a person who stole some candy from the candy store the death penalty?

Quantrill said:

God is good and because He is good He allowed the sin of Adam to fall upon the whole race of Adam. That sin of eating the fruit is the cause of all rapes, murders, homosexualtiy, idolotry, and any other horrible sin you can imagine. The one simple disobedient act did all that. .

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Imagine you were Adam and I said to you ''Adam because you ate that forbidden fruit, Stalin brutally murdered twenty million of his own people''.

Quantrill said:

Just because God delays His immediate judgement upon anyone's sin and let's them store it up for future judgement, doesn't mean that sin is not enough to send one to Hell or to require the just judgement of God. It is and it does. God stores it up so that He can give a full measure of judgement when the time comes. All the while the possibility is there for the person to repent and turn to God. But alas, usually it works out that because God does not inflict an immediate judgement upon a sin, then everyone thinks it is not that big a deal. (Ecc. 8:11) "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."

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This I agree with. Sin full measure is a concept throughout scripture. There comes a point where God is fully convinced that someone is beyond hope. This however does not mean that all on the other side of the line are equally wicked.

Quantrill said:

Your last statement makes little sense.

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Only if you see nothing wrong with serving a wicked god.

Quantrill said:

We are perfect to God because God will make us perfect,

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God can't make us perfect. Your idea of perfect is where you are coming unstuck.

We are perfect to Him because we repent and lay our lives down for Him. To disagree with me is to believe in no true free will or see white washed tombs as perfect Matt 23:27.

Quantrill said:

How can we be the righteousness of God and still be sinners? We can't.

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We are not sinners. Sinners refers to those who continue in sin unrepentant.

Quantrill said:

(Philippians 3:21) says our new bodies will be like Christ's glorious body. Yet you say we will still sin.

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So you are saying that because we have a new ''body'' we cannot at anytime ever disobey God?

If I get a Ferrari, I cannot at anytime take it on a wrong turn. I will be forced to stay on a certain road for all eternity?

Quantrill said:

Jesus has a will, and His will is always in line with the Fathers will, or submissive to it. And we will be like Jesus.

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Like Jesus. Not Jesus. Jesus is a God. We are a human.

Quantrill said:

Well, most sane people on earth are going to Hell, so your poll is on fire.

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They will grasp that they deserve hell just as they can correctly grasp your take on God is one where He deserves a cell next to theirs.

Quantrill said:

I never said God is wicked. You are accusing me of that, but I never said that. Indeed you are working backwards. You are interpreting God and the Scriptures with your flawed sense of goodness.

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But you have said God is wicked. No true free will is wicked. Partiality. No ability to properly judge the wicked. Sin is sin. You are espousing God being a wicked mental case.

Flawed sense of goodness? God gave us a brain that can discern right and wrong. He wants us to use it. Statements like yours are evidence of ostrich syndrome.

Greetings @KingJ and @Quantrill

may I suggest that you both try a little to address the words written by each other rather than continually have derogatory remarks against each other.
You both are talking about my Lord and King and i would appreciate if He also is your Saviour that you talk Jesus in love?
It is OK to discuss the points you do but leave the personal stuff out.
it turns the otherwise wholesome and healthy discussion into and ugly and unpleasant read, for me and no doubt for any others who may come this way.

I am sure you understand what i am saying.
If i came on here and called you both idiots, would you consider that worthy of an example of Who our God is and what He has done for us? I doubt it very much.

Perhaps exercise your will in this matter and you may even start discovering some of the truths you are both trying to explain?

Bless you both ....><>

Br. Bear said:

Greetings @KingJ and @Quantrill

may I suggest that you both try a little to address the words written by each other rather than continually have derogatory remarks against each other.
You both are talking about my Lord and King and i would appreciate if He also is your Saviour that you talk Jesus in love?
It is OK to discuss the points you do but leave the personal stuff out.
it turns the otherwise wholesome and healthy discussion into and ugly and unpleasant read, for me and no doubt for any others who may come this way.

I am sure you understand what i am saying.
If i came on here and called you both idiots, would you consider that worthy of an example of Who our God is and what He has done for us? I doubt it very much.

Perhaps exercise your will in this matter and you may even start discovering some of the truths you are both trying to explain?

Bless you both ....><>

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You mind pointing out my derogatory remarks?

Quantrill

KingJ said:

If Adam never sinned would we still sin? Yes. Moot argument.

You are miss representing His book. His book says '''Adam and Eve's '''death'' was banishment to earth as we know it''. Not the lake of fire or annihilation as one who reads sin as sin would assume, given that the lake of fire is the devils fate for his sin that got him cast out of heaven.

How is it contrary? Paul rebukes someone like you who does not discern in 1 Cor 6:1-8.

Gen 3:22 says otherwise. Do you think my judgement is corrupted since I won't give a person who stole some candy from the candy store the death penalty?

Imagine you were Adam and I said to you ''Adam because you ate that forbidden fruit, Stalin brutally murdered twenty million of his own people''.

This I agree with. Sin full measure is a concept throughout scripture. There comes a point where God is fully convinced that someone is beyond hope. This however does not mean that all on the other side of the line are equally wicked.

Only if you see nothing wrong with serving a wicked god.

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Again, the argument is not moot. Adam did sin and as a result we are born sinners. Thus we sin. You can 'if' all day long but that is how it occurred. It doesn't matter if anyone else would have done better or not. The human race fell in one man due to his one sin. Death is death. It is not banishment from the garden. They died before they were banished. They died spiritually immediately, and death now worked in them and would eventually physically kill them. Your point of death being banishment from the garden is another example of your judgement being contrary to Scripture.

(Gen. 3:22) says nothing of the sort concerning your flawed judgement. Your judgement is flawed because you are looking at it through the world's goodness and not the goodness of God. God destroyed the whole world in the flood save Noah and His family. Millions of men, women, and children died as a result. That was a 'good' act of God. Wasn't it?

The gravity of the sin of Adam does not change the fact that Adams sin caused the fall of the human race. It really doesn't matter how Adam would feel. I know he really didn't know the extent of his sin till he saw Able laying dead in the field. Yes, one sin of disobedience caused it all.

I never said all are equally wicked. I said all sin can send one to Hell. The human race fell in Adam. Some seek God and redemption. Others do not. All are sinners and on their way to Hell. Only those who come to God and Christ are redeemed. There are a lot of 'good' people who will go to Hell. They are good by the world's standards. But not by God's standard.

I have never implied I serve a wicked God. That is your accusation.

Quantrill

Yes, greetings to you , Quantrill,

Why do you ask? Are you brain dead? Is it better to ask if you are or to simply state it and say you are brain dead?
Actually being brain dead is not a very nice condition and especially not nice for loved ones of those deemed brain dead.

I did not make a count nor specify the number of times any derogatory remarks were made by either of you. Simply, though, there have been and 'tis best there are none. One could get into a debate of what is derogatory and what is not and likewise, i am not as bad as the other, etc but again, I have and am asking that we can leave off those slip ups, whether they are deliberate or not, as they do not read well and make an otherwise intelligent discussion common and not very appetising ... unless of course the reader fancies that sort of thing or agrees with the comment, in which case I would rather we don't attract those who enjoy such manners.

Please understand that there are no hard feelings, but please (both) understand that in love is the way to hear, to teach, to disciple, to give and to receive, to expect, to get through and to reap fruit and of course to bear it.
I know for a certainty that i have definitely NOT always acted accordingly and i do not pretend to be better than either of you.


Bless you ....><>

KingJ said:

God can't make us perfect. Your idea of perfect is where you are coming unstuck.

We are perfect to Him because we repent and lay our lives down for Him. To disagree with me is to believe in no true free will or see white washed tombs as perfect Matt 23:27.

We are not sinners. Sinners refers to those who continue in sin unrepentant.

So you are saying that because we have a new ''body'' we cannot at anytime ever disobey God?

If I get a Ferrari, I cannot at anytime take it on a wrong turn. I will be forced to stay on a certain road for all eternity?

Like Jesus. Not Jesus. Jesus is a God. We are a human.

They will grasp that they deserve hell just as they can correctly grasp your take on God is one where He deserves a cell next to theirs.

But you have said God is wicked. No true free will is wicked. Partiality. No ability to properly judge the wicked. Sin is sin. You are espousing God being a wicked mental case.

Flawed sense of goodness? God gave us a brain that can discern right and wrong. He wants us to use it. Statements like yours are evidence of ostrich syndrome.

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The verses I gave you say otherwise. I disagree with you but still see man with a will. Your having a will doesn't give you the freedom to will against God's will. Our wills will be either in line with the will of God, or submissive to the will of God.

You say we are not sinners, yet you say we will sin in Heaven. Why are we not sinners here but are sinners there? All men born of Adam are sinners. Even if you are redeemed, you're still a sinner. If you were no longer a sinner, you wouldn't die. But you will die, because you are still a sinner. (Rom. 5:12-14) ".....by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression..." Do you see that? God did not impute the sins of the people from Adam to Moses to them. Yet they died because they were sinners. But not their sins, but from Adams sin.

You again isolate one sentence removing it from the paragraph. I said, (2 Cor. 5:21), (Philippians 3:21), and (Eph. 5:27) prove that we will not be sinners in Heaven. Because we have been made the righteousness of God, without spot or blemish, with a glorified body like Jesus Christ, we will no longer be sinners or will sin. We will be redeemed sinners forever.

Jesus is God, not 'a' god. And yes, we will be like Him. Jesus is Human also. He is the God/Man. Can Jesus sin in Heaven? Could Jesus have sinned on earth?

Again, you are working backwards. You are defining God by your goodness. And your goodness is of the world. Was God good when he destroyed millions by the flood? Was He good when He had the Israelites kill men, women, and children in Canaan? Was He good when killed thousands of Jews for their various rebellions against Him? Is He good when He sends the unbelieving to an eternal lake of fire? The answer is yes, God is good in doing all of these. Why? Because what God does is good. In other words, God doesn't do the good. What He does is the good. This is not God being wicked. This is God doing the good.

Quantrill

Br. Bear said:

Yes, greetings to you , Quantrill,

Why do you ask? Are you brain dead? Is it better to ask if you are or to simply state it and say you are brain dead?
Actually being brain dead is not a very nice condition and especially not nice for loved ones of those deemed brain dead.

Bless you ....><>

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Are you saying this is the statement you are referring to? If so where is it found?

Quantrill

Br. Bear said:

Greetings @KingJ and @Quantrill

may I suggest that you both try a little to address the words written by each other rather than continually have derogatory remarks against each other.
You both are talking about my Lord and King and i would appreciate if He also is your Saviour that you talk Jesus in love?
It is OK to discuss the points you do but leave the personal stuff out.
it turns the otherwise wholesome and healthy discussion into and ugly and unpleasant read, for me and no doubt for any others who may come this way.

I am sure you understand what i am saying.
If i came on here and called you both idiots, would you consider that worthy of an example of Who our God is and what He has done for us? I doubt it very much.

Perhaps exercise your will in this matter and you may even start discovering some of the truths you are both trying to explain?

Bless you both ....><>

Click to expand...

Greeting Br Bear. Yes, will do. Easy to get irritated when you feel conversation is circular.

Br. Bear said:

Yes, greetings to you , Quantrill,

Why do you ask? Are you brain dead? Is it better to ask if you are or to simply state it and say you are brain dead?
Actually being brain dead is not a very nice condition and especially not nice for loved ones of those deemed brain dead.

Bless you ....><>

Click to expand...

Since you did not respond I can only assume that post [HASH=1839]#(45[/HASH]) is what you are referring to. You accuse me of saying one is brain dead. But I never said that. KingJ accused me of implying that God is brain dead and wicked in post [HASH=1840]#(44[/HASH]). To which I responded saying, "No, I am not implying God is brain dead. You are" The meaning is that it is not me that is implying God is brain dead, it is KingJ.

So, no derogatory statement there. But of course then there is yours in post [HASH=1660]#(55[/HASH]) asking me if I am brain dead. But you needn't worry, those types of comments are like water on a ducks back with me. Comes with the territory.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

Since you did not respond I can only assume that post [HASH=1839]#(45[/HASH]) is what you are referring to. You accuse me of saying one is brain dead. But I never said that. KingJ accused me of implying that God is brain dead and wicked in post [HASH=1840]#(44[/HASH]). To which I responded saying, "No, I am not implying God is brain dead. You are" The meaning is that it is not me that is implying God is brain dead, it is KingJ.

So, no derogatory statement there. But of course then there is yours in post [HASH=1660]#(55[/HASH]) asking me if I am brain dead. But you needn't worry, those types of comments are like water on a ducks back with me. Comes with the territory.

Quantrill

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Greetings,

thank you for clarifying your post.
I appreciate that you took the time to let me and others who may have mis-read what you wrote.
That sort of thing happens all too often and communication is good for bringing out what is meant.
Now we all need to seek the Lord in how we read the Scriptures we have been given for edifying and building each other up with.


Bless you ....><>