Sin is tied to free will

KingJ · Mar 2, 2019

Br. Bear said:
the more i look at the title of this thread, the more i get irked.

You would not be a Christian if it didn't. We live daily hating and fighting sin.

Br. Bear said:
sin is 'tied to' disobedience and rebellion.

Yes it is. But we have to differentiate between two types of disobedience.

1. Eating the forbidden fruit. Does it seem appropriate if God said to Adam, because you ate the fruit I told you not to eat, you will be punished in hell for all eternity? Just....because.....they ate a fruit.....from the wrong tree. God put that tree there. God put the serpent there.

2. Mortal sinners like murderers, pedophiles and rapists. Would anyone be surprised if God placed such a person in hell?

I believe that as humans know good and evil as God does Gen 3:22 and will never lose this ability. There is no reason for God to ever put another tree of good and evil in a garden with us. We ''know''. This knowledge is with us for all eternity. Hence we are able to sin at anytime we wish in heaven and for all eternity.

Not saying we love sin. If we loved sin we would not be grafted into God's family and en route to an eternity in heaven. I want to make it crystal clear that we retain free will to reject or accept sin for all eternity. God is not a tyrant that will demand His way or the highway on all matters.

B-A-C · Mar 2, 2019

KingJ said:
1. Eating the forbidden fruit. Does it seem appropriate if God said to Adam, because you ate the fruit I told you not to eat, you will be punished in hell for all eternity? Just....because.....they ate a fruit.....from the wrong tree. God put that tree there. God put the serpent there.

God allows all of us to be tested.

He allowed Satan to test Job.

Satan was "allowed" to test Peter. (Peter didn't do so good on that specific test) but He made up for it later in life.

He allowed Satan to test Jesus.

...and... he allowed Satan to test Adam and Eve.

In fact most of life is a test... we are tested almost everyday.

Jas 1:2; Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Jas 1:3; knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

Jas 1:12; Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

IF... "if" IF... we persevere in these trials.... we can be "approved" and receive the crown of life.

1 Pet 1:6; In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith , being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Pet 1:8; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1 Pet 1:9; obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

It is these tests, that "prove" our faith. The faith that "obtains the salvation of your soul".

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

We will all go through thousands of tests in life. These tests will reveal your heart to you and to God. (mostly us, He already knows your heart).
How we handle these tests determine where we will spend eternity.

God tells us all "don't eat of the fruit" every day. But do we do any better than Adam and Eve?

2 Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you— unless indeed you fail the test?

B-A-C · Mar 2, 2019

For some people... putting an ice cream cone in front of them is a test. (This isn't necessarily a sin, but it is a test)
For others it might be putting a cigarette in front of them.
For someone else it might be a glass of alcohol.
For this person it might be pictures of naked women.
For that person it might be texting dirty jokes to your girl-friend.

Maybe you had a chance to steal something you really wanted. Maybe you lied and blamed someone else because you were about to get in trouble.
Maybe you called a woman at work to meet you for dinner because you were mad at your wife.

These are just a few examples.... but all of these are tests.
We can blame God for allowing us to be tested. Or we can simply past the test sometimes... Most of the time. (I'm not saying we have to be 100% perfect)
If we are "born again". If we have put aside the lusts of the flesh and really... I mean really... crucified the old self with it's worldly desires.
..and we have the Holy Spirit living inside us, empowering us. What excuse do we have to keep failing these tests over and over and over everytime, everyday
for the rest of our lives?

Rom 2:24; For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Dave M · Mar 2, 2019

sin is tied to the curse of a fallen world and we receive a sin nature

Dave M · Mar 2, 2019

B-A-C said:
If we have put aside the lusts of the flesh and really... I mean really... crucified the old self with it's worldly desires.
..and we have the Holy Spirit living inside us, empowering us. What excuse do we have to keep failing these tests over and over and over everytime, everyday
for the rest of our lives?

AMEN brotther

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 2, 2019

KingJ said:
I want to propose that because sin is linked to free will, we never lose the ability to sin.

A good God gives true free will to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves, who are created just beneath the angels Heb 2:7. Without the ability to sin against God, true free will is a fallacy.

Since God is good Psalm 136:1, He always gives us true free will. We will always have the ability to disobey Him. To disagree with Him. To sin.

Some facts to consider:

1. Babies / Children are born in sin Psalm 51:5 but yet heaven belongs to them Matt 19:14.
2. There are ranks in heaven among the angels. Michael is an arch angel. Why if they all perfect?
3. Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
4. We are able to judge right from wrong Gen 3:22 just as God does. Does God lose this ability? Do we? If not why?
5. In 1 Cor 6:3 Paul says we will Judge angels. Unlikely that this be those who have been sentenced to hell as God has judged them.
6. If there are righteous that are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, it is clear that not all the righteous want to serve God as much as the next.
7. In Rev 6:10 we see saints in heaven wanting vengeance on those who killed them. They must be having some bad thoughts.
8. Not all sin is unto death 1 John 5:16.
9. Lastly and most noteworthy, ONLY God is good Mark 10:18.

I am not proposing Heaven is a place rife with sin. I believe thinking on this subject helps us grasp two very important facts with crystal clarity.

Fact 1: God is exceedingly good. He tolerates imperfection / sin / what He hates in His space to uphold being good to His creation, for all eternity. Being eternally sanctified by the blood of Jesus is truly evidence of love from God.

Fact 2: Repentance separates sinner from sinner. There must be a clear and distinct difference between sinners in heaven and sinners in hell as heaven and hell are eternal homes for each type. Just as there was a separation with sinners in Abraham's bosom and sinners on the other side of the divide in Hades. Those who repent hate what is wicked and have genuine love for God Rom 12:9. Those who repent do not love the darkness, so they accept the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those who repent truthfully, God will not despise Psalm 51:17.

God hates sin. If we hate sin we love God. If we hate sin, we repent. God forgives sincere repentance 7 x 70 times (always) Matt 18:22. Never harden your heart Rom 2:5, always repent.

If all of mankind (according to the Apostle of the Ascended Christ and main originator of Christianity as we have today Paul) are born with a sin nature they cannot have free will as their nature is that of a sinner and all they can do is sin all day long. They are programmed as it were to sin. A snake bites the hand that feeds it. That is its nature.

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 2, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
If all of mankind (according to the Apostle of the Ascended Christ and main originator of Christianity as we have today Paul) are born with a sin nature they cannot have free will as their nature is that of a sinner and all they can do is sin all day long. They are programmed as it were to sin. A snake bites the hand that feeds it. That is its nature.

Therefore we need a new nature that does not sin. That is when Christ comes in and it is him in us that does not sin. His nature. That is why in 1 John 3:9 we read that whatsoever that is born of God cannot sin. Christ in you cannot sin and He is our glory.

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 2, 2019

B-A-C said:
He determines our circumstances, but not not our decisions. Let me qualify that last half.

God can use circumstances to influence our decisions. I will even go so far as to say He may influence "some" of our decisions. But not the ones our salvation depends on.
He wants to know our hearts, and He wants us to know His. But He doesn't force either one to happen.

AS soon as you say "there is no free-will" for Christians... you are saying when we sin it's God's fault. He (God) "made" you sin because... well... you have no will of your own.

Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

How convenient it must be, to be able to blame God for our sins.

However God does test people. Look at Abraham and Job etc. He allows things to happen. Why?

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
If all of mankind (according to the Apostle of the Ascended Christ and main originator of Christianity as we have today Paul) are born with a sin nature they cannot have free will as their nature is that of a sinner and all they can do is sin all day long. They are programmed as it were to sin. A snake bites the hand that feeds it. That is its nature.

If we were talking about an animal you would have a case for no free will. But a human is not an animal. A human is a creation just beneath the angels Heb 2:7. Created with a body, soul and spirit 1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture like the popular Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me, is referring to an environment of sin. My mother was a sinner. The doctor is a sinner. The people in the cars on the way home are all sinners. The lion hunting it's food. The viruses making us sick. All part of a sinful environment.

The bible says God is impartial Act 10:34. As such everyone of us have to partake of sin to be guilty of sin. Otherwise God would be partial and wicked. God is good Psalm 136:1. Not wicked.

The closest we can get to a '''sin nature''' is grasping our weak flesh. Our flesh is weak and able to easily partake of sin. Nothing more or less then Adam and Eve had with the forbidden fruit though.

Free will comes in when we grasp our will driven by our soul and spirit to hate what is wicked. Not giving in to the weakness of our flesh and its desire to sin.

Matt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

We all have the ability to follow Rom 12:9, that is free will.

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
Therefore we need a new nature that does not sin. That is when Christ comes in and it is him in us that does not sin. His nature. That is why in 1 John 3:9 we read that whatsoever that is born of God cannot sin. Christ in you cannot sin and He is our glory.

Not true. We don't need a new nature to follow Rom 12:9. It is because we follow Rom 12:9 that God gives us a new nature. Cart before horse. It is ''crazy'' thinking like this that started Calvinism.

Think of David. No new nature, but yet God boasts of him. Saying ''there is a man I can use for anything. A man after my own heart.'' Consider also how God chose Abraham. Was it by random selection? If we read Gen 18 we see that Abraham interrogated God over the destruction of Sodom. He wanted assurance that God was not being wicked. He got it. Abraham was hence also a man after God's heart. No new nature from Christ. Then consider also the divide in Hades. Many in Abraham's bosom. How so if no new nature from Christ?

When someone repents, God judges their hearts and minds as only He can Jer 17:9-11. When we pass, God gives us a revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. When we receive this revelation of Jesus we become new creations. We desire to be baptized. We are grafted into His family. Jesus only comes in when we open the door to our heart Rev 3:20. We only open the door if we truly repent of our sin Psalm 51:17 / are prepared to lay our lives down for Him Matt 16:24.

No new nature needed to repent, hate what is wicked and accept Jesus. Cart before horse!!

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
However God does test people. Look at Abraham and Job etc. He allows things to happen. Why?

God tests the wicked to see if they have any hope of truly hating what is wicked.

His people have already passed the first test. All tests are now geared toward growing closer to God and Him closer to us. For all of eternity Job's crown will read ''remained faithful through x, y and z''. We will report to him in heaven as it is clearly evident that not all of us would pass such tests.

Job had an insane trust in God and His goodness. If Job ever thought God was wicked, he would have denied and cursed God on day one. He knew that this insanely good God that was allowing these wicked things to happen to him had a very good reason for it. Just as Abraham did. They both had impeccable faith in God being good.

Not all of us can endure such tests as Abraham and Job. Perhaps if you mentioned Jonah we could better relate.

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 3, 2019

KingJ said:
Not true. We don't need a new nature to follow Rom 12:9. It is because we follow Rom 12:9 that God gives us a new nature. Cart before horse. It is ''crazy'' thinking like this that started Calvinism.

Think of David. No new nature, but yet God boasts of him. Saying ''there is a man I can use for anything. A man after my own heart.'' Consider also how God chose Abraham. Was it by random selection? If we read Gen 18 we see that Abraham interrogated God over the destruction of Sodom. He wanted assurance that God was not being wicked. He got it. Abraham was hence also a man after God's heart. No new nature from Christ. Then consider also the divide in Hades. Many in Abraham's bosom. How so if no new nature from Christ?

When someone repents, God judges their hearts and minds as only He can Jer 17:9-11. When we pass, God gives us a revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. When we receive this revelation of Jesus we become new creations. We desire to be baptized. We are grafted into His family. Jesus only comes in when we open the door to our heart Rev 3:20. We only open the door if we truly repent of our sin Psalm 51:17 / are prepared to lay our lives down for Him Matt 16:24.

No new nature needed to repent, hate what is wicked and accept Jesus. Cart before horse!!

Sounds reasonable. Give me some time to respond. Like a few days. My other Boss is keeping me quite busy at home.

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 3, 2019

Ican

KingJ said:
God tests the wicked to see if they have any hope of truly hating what is wicked.

His people have already passed the first test. All tests are now geared toward growing closer to God and Him closer to us. For all of eternity Job's crown will read ''remained faithful through x, y and z''. We will report to him in heaven as it is clearly evident that not all of us would pass such tests.

Job had an insane trust in God and His goodness. If Job ever thought God was wicked, he would have denied and cursed God on day one. He knew that this insanely good God that was allowing these wicked things to happen to him had a very good reason for it. Just as Abraham did. They both had impeccable faith in God being good.

Not all of us can endure such tests as Abraham and Job. Perhaps if you mentioned Jonah we could better relate.

I can do ALL things through Christ .... Phil4:13

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
Ican

I can do ALL things through Christ .... Phil4:13

Yes we can, but not all of us do. God does not need us to endure the worse test to be convinced of our love of Him. There are minimum thresholds. Martyr Rev 2:10. Truthful repentance Psalm 51:17. Drawing near to God by hating what is evil and cleansing our hands James 4:8. True selflessness James 1:27.

I am most terrified by what Christians may encounter in Rev 2:10. Ten days of torture and then death. I cannot even survive one minute of torture. I hope God knows this and does not think I can. What a crown for those that do though!!!! Such depth of dedication and love to God!!

Imagine we were married to a spouse that would do such for us. How much closer would we be to them? We ''have'' to bear this truth in mind. This is the time and place that God will test us.

One scripture to bear in mind is 1 Cor 10:13 But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

B-A-C · Mar 3, 2019

How do you reconcile...

Rom 9:10; And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

B-A-C · Mar 3, 2019

This verse is taken by some churches to say infants are only "clean" as long as one of the parents is a believer. Otherwise "your children are unclean".

1 Cor 7:14; For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Does God really hold us responsible for what our parents have done?

Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exod 34:7; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
Numb 14:18; 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
Deut 5:9; 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Does God hold it against us what Adam did?

Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

B-A-C said:
How do reconcile...

Rom 9:10; And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Are you asking or making a statement?

Have you never discussed with a Calvinist before?

KingJ · Mar 3, 2019

B-A-C said:
This verse is taken by some churches to say infants are only "clean" as long as one of the parents is a believer. Otherwise "your children are unclean".

1 Cor 7:14; For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Does God really hold us responsible for what our parents have done?

Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exod 34:7; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
Numb 14:18; 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
Deut 5:9; 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Does God hold it against us what Adam did?

Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

You are mixing two separate issues. What is up with you? You tired? Are you being serious?

B-A-C · Mar 3, 2019

KingJ said:
Have you never discussed with a Calvinist before?

I attended a southern Baptist church for about 10 years.

KingJ · Mar 4, 2019

B-A-C said:
I attended a southern Baptist church for about 10 years.

Rom 9 is perhaps the most quoted passage Calvinist's use.

Paul is just saying that God can do anything. He can make from a lump of clay a vessel unto dishonor. He can make from the same lump a vessel unto honor. This does not mean He does. The rest of scripture tells us what in fact God decides to do. He chooses to be good Psalm 136:1 and impartial Acts 10:34, that is why we give thanks.

Esau I have hated and Jacob I have loved, if you read about them it is simply a case of Jacob I have chosen and Esau I have not. If God hated Esau, Esau would have had fire and brimstone rain down on him. But he didn't. Because God is not partial and a fool. As many want to insinuate He is. God bashers, Calvinists. Be so careful with how you wield the scriptures BAC, unless you want to be in those camps.

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Sin is tied to free will

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