Sin is tied to free will

KingJ · Feb 28, 2019

I want to propose that because sin is linked to free will, we never lose the ability to sin.

A good God gives true free will to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves, who are created just beneath the angels Heb 2:7. Without the ability to sin against God, true free will is a fallacy.

Since God is good Psalm 136:1, He always gives us true free will. We will always have the ability to disobey Him. To disagree with Him. To sin.

Some facts to consider:

1. Babies / Children are born in sin Psalm 51:5 but yet heaven belongs to them Matt 19:14.
2. There are ranks in heaven among the angels. Michael is an arch angel. Why if they all perfect?
3. Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
4. We are able to judge right from wrong Gen 3:22 just as God does. Does God lose this ability? Do we? If not why?
5. In 1 Cor 6:3 Paul says we will Judge angels. Unlikely that this be those who have been sentenced to hell as God has judged them.
6. If there are righteous that are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, it is clear that not all the righteous want to serve God as much as the next.
7. In Rev 6:10 we see saints in heaven wanting vengeance on those who killed them. They must be having some bad thoughts.
8. Not all sin is unto death 1 John 5:16.
9. Lastly and most noteworthy, ONLY God is good Mark 10:18.

I am not proposing Heaven is a place rife with sin. I believe thinking on this subject helps us grasp two very important facts with crystal clarity.

Fact 1: God is exceedingly good. He tolerates imperfection / sin / what He hates in His space to uphold being good to His creation, for all eternity. Being eternally sanctified by the blood of Jesus is truly evidence of love from God.

Fact 2: Repentance separates sinner from sinner. There must be a clear and distinct difference between sinners in heaven and sinners in hell as heaven and hell are eternal homes for each type. Just as there was a separation with sinners in Abraham's bosom and sinners on the other side of the divide in Hades. Those who repent hate what is wicked and have genuine love for God Rom 12:9. Those who repent do not love the darkness, so they accept the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those who repent truthfully, God will not despise Psalm 51:17.

God hates sin. If we hate sin we love God. If we hate sin, we repent. God forgives sincere repentance 7 x 70 times (always) Matt 18:22. Never harden your heart Rom 2:5, always repent.

Quantrill · Feb 28, 2019

KingJ said:
I want to propose that because sin is linked to free will, we never lose the ability to sin.

A good God gives true free will to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves, who are created just beneath the angels Heb 2:7. Without the ability to sin against God, true free will is a fallacy.

Since God is good Psalm 136:1, He always gives us true free will. We will always have the ability to disobey Him. To disagree with Him. To sin.

Some facts to consider:

1. Babies / Children are born in sin Psalm 51:5 but yet heaven belongs to them Matt 19:14.
2. There are ranks in heaven among the angels. Michael is an arch angel. Why if they all perfect?
3. Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
4. We are able to judge right from wrong Gen 3:22 just as God does. Does God lose this ability? Do we? If not why?
5. In 1 Cor 6:3 Paul says we will Judge angels. Unlikely that this be those who have been sentenced to hell as God has judged them.
6. If there are righteous that are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, it is clear that not all the righteous want to serve God as much as the next.
7. In Rev 6:10 we see saints in heaven wanting vengeance on those who killed them. They must be having some bad thoughts.
8. Not all sin is unto death 1 John 5:16.
9. Lastly and most noteworthy, ONLY God is good Mark 10:18.

I am not proposing Heaven is a place rife with sin. I believe thinking on this subject helps us grasp two very important facts with crystal clarity.

Fact 1: God is exceedingly good. He tolerates imperfection / sin / what He hates in His space to uphold being good to His creation, for all eternity. Being eternally sanctified by the blood of Jesus is truly evidence of love from God.

Fact 2: Repentance separates sinner from sinner. There must be a clear and distinct difference between sinners in heaven and sinners in hell as heaven and hell are eternal homes for each type. Just as there was a separation with sinners in Abraham's bosom and sinners on the other side of the divide in Hades. Those who repent hate what is wicked and have genuine love for God Rom 12:9. Those who repent do not love the darkness, so they accept the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those who repent truthfully, God will not despise Psalm 51:17.

God hates sin. If we hate sin we love God. If we hate sin, we repent. God forgives sincere repentance 7 x 70 times (always) Matt 18:22. Never harden your heart Rom 2:5, always repent.

Are you saying in Heaven we will have the ability to sin against God because we have a will? If so, then are you saying our eternal life, may be lost in Heaven?

If our will ever runs contrary to the will of God, that would be sin...correct? So, in Heaven, do we all have only one will...the will of God? And we all will the same all the time?

I myself believe our eternity is settled forever in Heaven with Christ. I don't know exactly how it will all work, but my opinion is that we will maintain our distinct personalities and have our own will. And our own will, will be aligned with the will of God. It is hard to imagine having a will and that will always being in agreement with God. But, of course I am looking at it from a sinners point of view.

Quantrill

B-A-C · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
Fact 1: God is exceedingly good. He tolerates imperfection / sin / what He hates in His space to uphold being good to His creation, for all eternity. Being eternally sanctified by the blood of Jesus is truly evidence of love from God.

A lot of people confuse "good" and "nice". God does NOT tolerate sin of any kind, they ONLY reason He tolerates us (in our sin) is because of the cross.
A "nice" parent will let their kids stay up too late, not punish them for misbehaving, give them too many sweets to eat, and let them play in the street.
A "good" parent will not let their kids do any of these things very often.

If you're living in willful sin, you aren't sanctified.

KingJ · Mar 1, 2019

Quantrill said:
Are you saying in Heaven we will have the ability to sin against God because we have a will? If so, then are you saying our eternal life, may be lost in Heaven?

Yes to the first line and a no to the second.

Yes, we never lose free will. We have free will to say no to God in heaven. God is never a tryant.

No, we never lose our eternal life. Sanctification in Jesus. The criteria to being sanctified is to lay our lives down for God Matt 16:24. This is why all martyr's for Jesus have a one way ticket to heaven Rev 2:10. God wants to be with those that can and have laid their lives down for Him just as He has done for us.

Example, marriage. Marriage works because the love two have for each other is real. Both parties have laid their lives down in that they have committed to the vows of ''richer or poorer, till death do us part''. It is this depth of intent, sincere dedication that makes marriage work even if we or our spouse are not ''perfect''. Now with God, God is a perfect spouse but we are not. God does know who will lay their lives down for Him and who won't. God is not a fool who marries a devil. This is why OSAS is true.

Quantrill said:
If our will ever runs contrary to the will of God, that would be sin...correct? So, in Heaven, do we all have only one will...the will of God? And we all will the same all the time?

Yes that is sin. Our wills however will never oppose God at a level where heaven will be a place of disorder.

If someone in the army takes a bullet for you they are never going to rape your wife or molest your child. They may argue and throw the odd tantrum. Refuse to do x and y. Unless of course they took the bullet for you by accident. God does not make the mistake of taking fake Christians to heaven.

Quantrill said:
I myself believe our eternity is settled forever in Heaven with Christ. I don't know exactly how it will all work, but my opinion is that we will maintain our distinct personalities and have our own will. And our own will, will be aligned with the will of God. It is hard to imagine having a will and that will always being in agreement with God. But, of course I am looking at it from a sinners point of view.

If God wanted someone always inline with His will He would not have made angels and humans. Only monkeys and baboons.

KingJ · Mar 1, 2019

B-A-C said:
A lot of people confuse "good" and "nice". God does NOT tolerate sin of any kind, they ONLY reason He tolerates us (in our sin) is because of the cross.
A "nice" parent will let their kids stay up too late, not punish them for misbehaving, give them too many sweets to eat, and let them play in the street.
A "good" parent will not let their kids do any of these things very often.

If you're living in willful sin, you aren't sanctified.

He does tolerate sin. He doesn't tolerate people sold out to sin. Love of sin full measure.

God is good. Fullstop. As such we need to consider the following:

1. A good person will not force an arranged marriage.
2. A good person will not force their spouse who has chosen to be with them, to do the dishes, iron the clothing.
3. A good person who is married will not divorce their spouse unless there is a sin as harsh as adultery Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9.
4. A perfect spouse (which God is) will never bond Himself with someone capable of adultery.

Quantrill · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
Yes to the first line and a no to the second.

Yes, we never lose free will. We have free will to say no to God in heaven. God is never a tryant.

No, we never lose our eternal life. Sanctification in Jesus. The criteria to being sanctified is to lay our lives down for God Matt 16:24. This is why all martyr's for Jesus have a one way ticket to heaven Rev 2:10. God wants to be with those that can and have laid their lives down for Him just as He has done for us.

Example, marriage. Marriage works because the love two have for each other is real. Both parties have laid their lives down in that they have committed to the vows of ''richer or poorer, till death do us part''. It is this depth of intent, sincere dedication that makes marriage work even if we or our spouse are not ''perfect''. Now with God, God is a perfect spouse but we are not. God does know who will lay their lives down for Him and who won't. God is not a fool who marries a devil. This is why OSAS is true.

Yes that is sin. Our wills however will never oppose God at a level where heaven will be a place of disorder.

If someone in the army takes a bullet for you they are never going to rape your wife or molest your child. They may argue and throw the odd tantrum. Refuse to do x and y. Unless of course they took the bullet for you by accident. God does not make the mistake of taking fake Christians to heaven.

If God wanted someone always inline with His will He would not have made angels and humans. Only monkeys and baboons.

You present a contradictory scenario. You say if our will is contrary to the will of God, that is sin. Yet you say if God wanted someone always inline with His will, He would not have made angels and humans.

Understand I agree we will always have a will. I just can't comprehend our will always in harmony with God's will. And sin, I believe, in it's most basic form, is a will contrary or independent to God's will. But, as I said, this is probably incomprehensible due to our sinful nature at this time.

Quantrill

KingJ · Mar 1, 2019

Quantrill said:
You present a contradictory scenario. You say if our will is contrary to the will of God, that is sin.

The will of God is that our will is able to be contrary. I wouldn't say it is always sin.

Quantrill said:
Yet you say if God wanted someone always inline with His will, He would not have made angels and humans.

Correct.

Not sure what is contradictory. The fact that He made angels and humans is evidence of Him being pleased by a being that has a will of its own.

Quantrill said:
Understand I agree we will always have a will. I just can't comprehend our will always in harmony with God's will.

Agreed.

Quantrill said:
And sin, I believe, in it's most basic form, is a will contrary or independent to God's will. But, as I said, this is probably incomprehensible due to our sinful nature at this time.

I don't think sin is ever incomprehensible due to Gen 3:22.

I believe too many push a false concept of heaven. One where we all get along 100% for all eternity. A lot will change and a lot will stay the same. If God wanted a being completely different to what we are now, He would have created that instead of creating us. We stay the human race. The human race is full of mistakes and imperfections.

Quantrill · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
The will of God is that our will is able to be contrary. I wouldn't say it is always sin.

Correct.

Not sure what is contradictory. The fact that He made angels and humans is evidence of Him being pleased by a being that has a will of its own.

Agreed.

I don't think sin is ever incomprehensible due to Gen 3:22.

I believe too many push a false concept of heaven. One where we all get along 100% for all eternity. A lot will change and a lot will stay the same. If God wanted a being completely different to what we are now, He would have created that instead of creating us. We stay the human race. The human race is full of mistakes and imperfections.

The contradiction is that you recognize a will contrary to the will of God is sin. But you then say God does not always want humans in line with His will.

You speak of it, our will, not being sin due to a level of the will exercised, or not always sin. But how can that be? An independent will is sin against God. Jesus Christ had a will, but it was always submissive to the will of the Father. He always did the will of the Father....didn't He? Even though His will was, 'Let this cup pass from me' , (Matt. 26:39), He submits to the will of the Father. 'nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt' (26:39) So, His will is always in line with, in harmony with, the will of the Father. It is only in this sense that I believe we will exercise our will. Our will may be something else than the will of the Father or Christ, yet we submit our will to them.

My point was not that sin is incomprehensible. You come to that conclusion due to your isolating every sentence as though it stands alone. A poor practice. See the paragraph as a whole and you will see what is incomprehensible.

Yes, we stay the human race, but redeemed. What you are saying is that we still will make mistakes and be imperfect in Heaven. You say mistakes because you probably didn't want to say 'sin'. And why wouldn't we get along throughout eternity? What would cause us to not get along?

Quantrill

KingJ · Mar 1, 2019

Quantrill said:
The contradiction is that you recognize a will contrary to the will of God is sin. But you then say God does not always want humans in line with His will.

I do not recognize a will contrary to the will of God as always sin. If our will is contrary to God's will on an action that is sinful, yes God allows it. It is His will. Otherwise the opportunity to do this sin would not exist. There is no contradiction even in the extremer case where our will results in sin. Example 1: God wants us to try His new coffee. We say no. No sin. Example 2. God doesn't want us to egg our neighbors house. We egg it. They both upset. Sin. God allows both scenarios.

Quantrill said:
You speak of it, our will, not being sin due to a level of the will exercised, or not always sin. But how can that be? An independent will is sin against God. Jesus Christ had a will, but it was always submissive to the will of the Father. He always did the will of the Father....didn't He? Even though His will was, 'Let this cup pass from me' , (Matt. 26:39), He submits to the will of the Father. 'nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt' (26:39)

The cross was a 'material' matter. Our wills will be inline with God on material matters. He has our heart. Mortal sins vs venial sins. A Christian in heaven will never be able to molest someone. But verbally insult them, very likely. Think of a marriage and how Jesus says only adultery is grounds for divorce. This type of mortal sin a Christian now and in heaven cannot commit. Otherwise we did not truly lay our lives down for God.

Quantrill said:
So, His will is always in line with, in harmony with, the will of the Father. It is only in this sense that I believe we will exercise our will. Our will may be something else than the will of the Father or Christ, yet we submit our will to them.

Jesus submitted His will perfectly because 1. He is a God and 2. He is God. We are humans created just beneath the angels.

Quantrill said:
My point was not that sin is incomprehensible. You come to that conclusion due to your isolating every sentence as though it stands alone. A poor practice. See the paragraph as a whole and you will see what is incomprehensible.

I am all for context. But Gen 3:22 works just fine a stand alone verse. ''And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever''. What will the paragraph add to this? We know what is good and evil just as God does. Just as the angels do.

Quantrill said:
Yes, we stay the human race, but redeemed. What you are saying is that we still will make mistakes and be imperfect in Heaven. You say mistakes because you probably didn't want to say 'sin'. And why wouldn't we get along throughout eternity? What would cause us to not get along?

Mistakes can be sin. I have said from the OP that we will sin in heaven.

Quantrill said:
And why wouldn't we get along throughout eternity? What would cause us to not get along?

For the same reason there are ranks among angels and humans. Some want to serve God more then others. If some want to serve God more then others, rest assured some want to befriend you more or less then others. If some want to befriend you less, why is that? God won't force some to better serve Him. We will have a similar difficulty to God. We may be redeemed, have new bodies and be smiling a lot more....but humans are humans. God wanted humans. God created humans. Humans will never be anything more or less then humans. An ant is an ant. An angel is an angel. A human is a human. Humans never get along in perfect harmony. It will be a lot better then earth, don't get me wrong. But we will never be perfect as God. Only God is perfect.

Victor Van Heerden · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
I want to propose that because sin is linked to free will, we never lose the ability to sin.

A good God gives true free will to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves, who are created just beneath the angels Heb 2:7. Without the ability to sin against God, true free will is a fallacy.

Since God is good Psalm 136:1, He always gives us true free will. We will always have the ability to disobey Him. To disagree with Him. To sin.

Some facts to consider:

1. Babies / Children are born in sin Psalm 51:5 but yet heaven belongs to them Matt 19:14.
2. There are ranks in heaven among the angels. Michael is an arch angel. Why if they all perfect?
3. Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
4. We are able to judge right from wrong Gen 3:22 just as God does. Does God lose this ability? Do we? If not why?
5. In 1 Cor 6:3 Paul says we will Judge angels. Unlikely that this be those who have been sentenced to hell as God has judged them.
6. If there are righteous that are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, it is clear that not all the righteous want to serve God as much as the next.
7. In Rev 6:10 we see saints in heaven wanting vengeance on those who killed them. They must be having some bad thoughts.
8. Not all sin is unto death 1 John 5:16.
9. Lastly and most noteworthy, ONLY God is good Mark 10:18.

I am not proposing Heaven is a place rife with sin. I believe thinking on this subject helps us grasp two very important facts with crystal clarity.

Fact 1: God is exceedingly good. He tolerates imperfection / sin / what He hates in His space to uphold being good to His creation, for all eternity. Being eternally sanctified by the blood of Jesus is truly evidence of love from God.

Fact 2: Repentance separates sinner from sinner. There must be a clear and distinct difference between sinners in heaven and sinners in hell as heaven and hell are eternal homes for each type. Just as there was a separation with sinners in Abraham's bosom and sinners on the other side of the divide in Hades. Those who repent hate what is wicked and have genuine love for God Rom 12:9. Those who repent do not love the darkness, so they accept the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those who repent truthfully, God will not despise Psalm 51:17.

God hates sin. If we hate sin we love God. If we hate sin, we repent. God forgives sincere repentance 7 x 70 times (always) Matt 18:22. Never harden your heart Rom 2:5, always repent.

What is biblical sin?

KingJ · Mar 1, 2019

Victor Van Heerden said:
What is biblical sin?

Two types of sin in the bible.

1. Sin that results in only death.

What Catholics would call venial sins. I guess best defined as disobedience to God. As in the case of Adam Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

2. Sin that results in eternal hell.

Mortal sins. 1 John 5:16 type sins. Sins that got the devil kicked out of heaven. Sins that point to being sold out to sin with no hope of repentance. Also defined as rejecting Jesus. As only those sold out to a love of the darkness reject the light John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Quantrill · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
I do not recognize a will contrary to the will of God as always sin. If our will is contrary to God's will on an action that is sinful, yes God allows it. It is His will. Otherwise the opportunity to do this sin would not exist. There is no contradiction even in the extremer case where our will results in sin. Example 1: God wants us to try His new coffee. We say no. No sin. Example 2. God doesn't want us to egg our neighbors house. We egg it. They both upset. Sin. God allows both scenarios.

The cross was a 'material' matter. Our wills will be inline with God on material matters. He has our heart. Mortal sins vs venial sins. A Christian in heaven will never be able to molest someone. But verbally insult them, very likely. Think of a marriage and how Jesus says only adultery is grounds for divorce. This type of mortal sin a Christian now and in heaven cannot commit. Otherwise we did not truly lay our lives down for God.

Jesus submitted His will perfectly because 1. He is a God and 2. He is God. We are humans created just beneath the angels.

I am all for context. But Gen 3:22 works just fine a stand alone verse. ''And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever''. What will the paragraph add to this? We know what is good and evil just as God does. Just as the angels do.

Mistakes can be sin. I have said from the OP that we will sin in heaven.

For the same reason there are ranks among angels and humans. Some want to serve God more then others. If some want to serve God more then others, rest assured some want to befriend you more or less then others. If some want to befriend you less, why is that? God won't force some to better serve Him. We will have a similar difficulty to God. We may be redeemed, have new bodies and be smiling a lot more....but humans are humans. God wanted humans. God created humans. Humans will never be anything more or less then humans. An ant is an ant. An angel is an angel. A human is a human. Humans never get along in perfect harmony. It will be a lot better then earth, don't get me wrong. But we will never be perfect as God. Only God is perfect.

What would a will of yours be that is contrary to God's will, but not sin? Again, the very basic definition of sin is a will in opposition to God's will...a will independent of God's will. The first sin of the universe was "I will".

Jesus said His will, was always to obey the Father's will. (John 4:34) (John 5:19) (John 6:38) you are saying, not always. Where do you get the authority to state what sins the Christian commits in Heaven and what He does not?

Jesus was human also. Are we not supposed to be as He? Will we not be as He in Heaven? You are saying no.

You have nothing to prove that we will sin in Heaven. Such a statement is blasphemous at best.

No, you are not all for context. You are for taking a sentence and making it say something it never said. Just as you did, by isolating it from the context. Yet now you ask, what would context add. As I said, poor practice on your part. And that is the best that could be said.

We are not just humans, we are also sons of God. In that day, we no longer have this body of death and sin to carry about with us. Your statement that we will sin in Heaven because we are human is ridiculous and blasphemous.

What God makes perfect is perfect. And we will be perfect.

Quantrill

B-A-C · Mar 1, 2019

KingJ said:
I want to propose that because sin is linked to free will, we never lose the ability to sin.

That's kind of a huge blanket statement. But for me, the question is more do want to continue to sin?
We don't do things we don't like to do very much.

We do things that we love to do as often as possible.

Psa 97:10; Hate evil, you who love the LORD, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Prov 8:13; "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate.
Amos 5:15; Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate! Perhaps the LORD God of hosts May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

If you're sinning "all of time" "everyday". I would say you don't hate it very much.

B-A-C · Mar 1, 2019

It is interesting that you think sin is tied to free will (I agree), but you don't think salvation is tied to free will.
Sin is tied to salvation....

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

KingJ · Mar 2, 2019

B-A-C said:
That's kind of a huge blanket statement. But for me, the question is more do want to continue to sin?
We don't do things we don't like to do very much.

We do things that we love to do as often as possible.

Psa 97:10; Hate evil, you who love the LORD, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Prov 8:13; "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate.
Amos 5:15; Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate! Perhaps the LORD God of hosts May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

If you're sinning "all of time" "everyday". I would say you don't hate it very much.

I agree with all you have said.

We sin a lot more now because we have a weak flesh Rom 7:15 ''What I hate I do''. In heaven we won't have a weak flesh. But this is not to say we will never sin.

KingJ · Mar 2, 2019

B-A-C said:
It is interesting that you think sin is tied to free will (I agree), but you don't think salvation is tied to free will.
Sin is tied to salvation....

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Salvation is not tied to free will. Salvation from death is a free gift to those who from free will repent. Repentance is tied to free will. By quoting Luke 13:5 it seems we agree. Just semantics.

Br. Bear · Mar 2, 2019

Greetings,

the more i look at the title of this thread, the more i get irked.
Surely sin is 'tied to' disobedience and rebellion against God.
Free willy poppycock, Too fluffy.

to speak as you do @KingJ , ... so God decided to make man and then woman and gave them free will so they could choose for themselves... wrong, He told them right from the start... Don't do that...
and of course (forgive me Lord if this sounds rude) He thought this is good, they have free will and I'll kiss and cuddle them if they pick the way i like it and smack them on the head .. no, I'll smite them, they'll perish, if they goof up.
I don't think so.
Let face up to the reality, all men everywhere commanded to repent, not to make a choice because they have free willies, no. Do as you are told/commanded, (I AM GOD is telling you). If you do, you shall live, if you don't ye shall perish. Children of disobedience? Free will can't be punished as disobedience due to it's gracious nature.
I don't serve a sick god like that, do you?

sin is 'tied to' disobedience and rebellion.

I think you understand me.

Bless you ....><>

Rockerduck · Mar 2, 2019

If you are a Christian, born of the spirit, I don't agree with "free will". Proverbs 16:9

KingJ · Mar 2, 2019

Rockerduck said:
If you are a Christian, born of the spirit, I don't agree with "free will". Proverbs 16:9

God guides the steps of the righteous because they have submitted to Him from their free will. They are more then capable of not submitting further and taking their own steps in whatever direction they want. Just like Jonah. God convinced Jonah that His way was the right way in the example of the shrub that provided him shade in the desert. Jonah agreed and thereafter went to Nineveh. Jonah could have persisted with a path away from God's will and God would have given up. But God chose Jonah because He knew Jonah was from his own free will a man after His heart. God would never have chose Pharaoh for example.

So I completely disagree with your line. Can you provide some support?

B-A-C · Mar 2, 2019

Rockerduck said:
If you are a Christian, born of the spirit, I don't agree with "free will". Proverbs 16:9

He determines our circumstances, but not not our decisions. Let me qualify that last half.

God can use circumstances to influence our decisions. I will even go so far as to say He may influence "some" of our decisions. But not the ones our salvation depends on.
He wants to know our hearts, and He wants us to know His. But He doesn't force either one to happen.

AS soon as you say "there is no free-will" for Christians... you are saying when we sin it's God's fault. He (God) "made" you sin because... well... you have no will of your own.

Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

How convenient it must be, to be able to blame God for our sins.

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Sin is tied to free will

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