Another passage about not receiving the kingdom of God...

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. ( see Rom 8:4-13; )
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

IF... "IF"... IF you are led by the Spirit.. but what about anyone who isn't led by the Spirit? Are they still under the law? The obvious answer is yes. So how can we tell if someone is led by the Spirit or the flesh?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

sexual immorality... yes I look at pornography.. I but I'm a Christian. Yeah I'm a homosexual, but I'm a Christian.. Yeah I live with my boyfriend and we sleep together, but I'm a Christian.
... are you really?
Sensuality... yeah I lust after my neighbors wife and dream about having sex with her.. but I'm a Christian.
Sorcery.. yeah I take recreational drugs, but I'm a Christian.
Drunknness... yeah I party every night, get smashed and wake up hungover... but hey I'm a Christian.

Verse 17 above says if we are led by the Spirit, we can't do the things we please.
Verse 21 says.. those who "practice" these things. Practicing doesn't mean you make a mistake once or twice... it means you are doing it pretty often.. probably every day.
Those who practice these things aren't in the kingdom of God.

You can say you believe in Jesus, you can say you're a Christian, but the fact is... you aren't receiving any part of the inheritance.

Dave M said:

@Bill showed me this

In chapter 10 of Luke Jesus is sending out his 70 disciples and giving them all instructions and finally says

Luke 10-20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven

so it appears at this time Judas name was still written in heaven

Click to expand...

Even though this verse says their names are written in heaven, it does not mean they are.

They were telling Jesus about the miracles they were doing and Jesus helped them focus on what matters. A lesson in humility of sort. Don't rejoice that you are doing great works rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven. Focus on heaven.

It was NOT possible to be a Christian at the time of Jesus. So any verse between Matthew and John does simply not hold much water in an OSAS debate.

In addition, we need to grasp the fact that since all babies and children below age of accountability go to heaven a very very strong argument can be made for all our names being written in the book of life from the start.

I hence believe we have our names blotted out when God grasps our intent / our love of sin to be full measure. Likewise our names get written in Jesus's blood when we are saved.

B-A-C said:

Another passage about not receiving the kingdom of God...

Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. ( see Rom 8:4-13; )
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

IF... "IF"... IF you are led by the Spirit.. but what about anyone who isn't led by the Spirit? Are they still under the law? The obvious answer is yes. So how can we tell if someone is led by the Spirit or the flesh?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

sexual immorality... yes I look at pornography.. I but I'm a Christian. Yeah I'm a homosexual, but I'm a Christian.. Yeah I live with my boyfriend and we sleep together, but I'm a Christian.
... are you really?
Sensuality... yeah I lust after my neighbors wife and dream about having sex with her.. but I'm a Christian.
Sorcery.. yeah I take recreational drugs, but I'm a Christian.
Drunknness... yeah I party every night, get smashed and wake up hungover... but hey I'm a Christian.

Verse 17 above says if we are led by the Spirit, we can't do the things we please.
Verse 21 says.. those who "practice" these things. Practicing doesn't mean you make a mistake once or twice... it means you are doing it pretty often.. probably every day.
Those who practice these things aren't in the kingdom of God.

You can say you believe in Jesus, you can say you're a Christian, but the fact is... you aren't receiving any part of the inheritance.

Click to expand...

You are correct but you are taking it a notch too far.

There is not a single person on this planet that can go a day with no venial sin.

Dave M said:

the apostles were also disciples so that would not necessarily add 12 to it.

Click to expand...

The 70 are the ones addressed in (Luke 10:1), and (Luke 10:17). "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two...." "And the seventy returned again with joy,...."

Quantrill

Dovegiven said:

Luke 10:1 (KJV)
1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy

also,

and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

also is from the Gr. kai, sometimes used "and also", though that's considered improper, redundant English usage. It's habit forming by helping the mouth form "and" to prepare for the more difficult "also". The task instructions well fit what He had the apostles do in the previous chapter of Luke 9:2 (KJV)
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

In chapter 9 they returned, the multitude was fed, they went to villages, adding disciples who didn't make excuses. Those disciples had to be trained (make disciples of believers). When empowered they were sent out in pairs. Whether Judas was with the apostles going out, or training disciples of the seventy, is not a major point. He was of that ministry, taking equal part with the other 11, without complaint of any until the last week with Jesus.

Click to expand...

The 12 are addressed in (Luke 9). The seventy are addressed in (Luke 10).

Judas was part of the ministry of the 12. And he was a devil when Christ chose him. (John 6:70).

Quantrill

B-A-C said:

It would be difficult to quantify this.... but...

John 6:65; And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

Many scholars believe the "many disciples" who decided not to walk with Jesus anymore... were the 70 (some Bibles say 72).
But in any case.... whoever these disciples that left Jesus were, the original twelve did not leave with them.
In verse 67... Jesus asks "the twelve".... you aren't leaving also?

Click to expand...

Many scholars believe many things. That's a statement that is empty in content and purpose.

That Jesus attracted many who followed Him for the wrong reasons is clear. (John 6:64) "But there are some of you that believe not, For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

Just like Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil. (6:70)

Were the unbelieving a picture of losing ones salvation? No. They never were believers. Is Judas a picture of one losing his salvation? No. He was never saved, he was a devil.

Quantrill

B-A-C said:

It doesn't appear that Judas was excluded originally...

Matt 10:1; Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

It seems Judas had as power as the rest of them.

Mark 6:7; And He *summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;

Luke 9:1; And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases.

Click to expand...

Such power and authority was given to the 12 collectively. Of course Judas was included as he was one of the 12. There is no record of Judas preforming such power and authority. If he went out with another of the 12 such power would have been present due to the other disciple.

Jesus said in (19:28) of the 12, "...ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." This is a true statement also. It involves the 12 collectively. Though Judas was part of the 12, doesn't make the statement false. Neither does it mean Judas will be sitting upon a throne and judging Israel.

Quantrill

Greetings all,

perhaps it might help if we look at some Scriptural examples of this OP topic?

Does anyone recall the incident with Esau and his birthright. Is that the same as inheritance?
Can you remember hoe Saul started out and then turned sour? He was the anointed king of Israel.

Then of course, there was Adam. I think most know what happened with him?

There are probably a few others who lost what was theirs. Can you think of any?

I think this may be an important step to take in better understanding what happened in the New testament.

One thing is sure, though...
which of you would give your son in marriage to a seemingly nice wife-to-be who after the initial time of dating turned her ways and practiced those things that B-A-C had helpfully written out in this thread. No matter what profession she might or might have made, if she practiced or was found to be a doer of such things, what would your verdict be regarding your son marrying her?


please look at and discuss at least Esau. I do think it may help better understand what you all are trying to put together and may I say that a lot of the points made so far are on the surface within reason (on both sides) we do need to go a little further beyond our present reason and seek what God has given us in Scripture. It is there, after all, for our instruction.


Bless you all ....><>

Br. Bear said:

Greetings all,

perhaps it might help if we look at some Scriptural examples of this OP topic?

Does anyone recall the incident with Esau and his birthright. Is that the same as inheritance?
Can you remember hoe Saul started out and then turned sour? He was the anointed king of Israel.

Then of course, there was Adam. I think most know what happened with him?

There are probably a few others who lost what was theirs. Can you think of any?

I think this may be an important step to take in better understanding what happened in the New testament.

One thing is sure, though...
which of you would give your son in marriage to a seemingly nice wife-to-be who after the initial time of dating turned her ways and practiced those things that B-A-C had helpfully written out in this thread. No matter what profession she might or might have made, if she practiced or was found to be a doer of such things, what would your verdict be regarding your son marrying her?


please look at and discuss at least Esau. I do think it may help better understand what you all are trying to put together and may I say that a lot of the points made so far are on the surface within reason (on both sides) we do need to go a little further beyond our present reason and seek what God has given us in Scripture. It is there, after all, for our instruction.


Bless you all ....><>

Click to expand...

I don't believe the examples you gave are good examples. Esau's birthright was not a ticket to being saved. He was never saved. His rejection of his birthright was just more proof of who he was. He was one who cared not for God or the things of God. And we are distinctly told in (Rom. 9:11-13) that God hated Esau, and that even before he was born.

Neither is Adam a good example as Adam was not in a 'saved' state when he fell. Adam was in a state of perfection. Then he fell. Thus salvation was now necessary for him also.

King Saul definitely was a believer, but did stray away from God. Yet Samuel was clear when he told him that "...tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me...." (1 Sam. 28:19)

So, I don't believe any of these are examples of losing salvation.

As far as what bride we would hope for our son, why would God the Father give His Son such a bride as He has? Like it or not, no matter how good some of us may think we are, no matter how much we think we are not sinning, we are full of sin and always come short. And that is the bride Jesus is getting. Redeemed, and cleansed by God and Christ, but a history of being a sinner.

God the Father gets Israel as a wife, but she is guilty of whoredoms. (Hosea 1:2) Thus He requires Hosea to take him a wife of whoredoms. The Son gets a wife, the Church, who is chaste and virgin, but only because of the redemption provided. (2 Cor. 11:2)

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we no longer need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as a reason for our remaining in Heaven? Let's say, 10 million years after you are there in glory, and in a glorious state, enjoying the fellowship of God and Christ and the saints, in a glorious body, will you still need the redemption Christ provided?

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

I don't believe the examples you gave are good examples. Esau's birthright was not a ticket to being saved. He was never saved. His rejection of his birthright was just more proof of who he was. He was one who cared not for God or the things of God. And we are distinctly told in (Rom. 9:11-13) that God hated Esau, and that even before he was born.

Neither is Adam a good example as Adam was not in a 'saved' state when he fell. Adam was in a state of perfection. Then he fell. Thus salvation was now necessary for him also.

King Saul definitely was a believer, but did stray away from God. Yet Samuel was clear when he told him that "...tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me...." (1 Sam. 28:19)

So, I don't believe any of these are examples of losing salvation.

As far as what bride we would hope for our son, why would God the Father give His Son such a bride as He has? Like it or not, no matter how good some of us may think we are, no matter how much we think we are not sinning, we are full of sin and always come short. And that is the bride Jesus is getting. Redeemed, and cleansed by God and Christ, but a history of being a sinner.

God the Father gets Israel as a wife, but she is guilty of whoredoms. (Hosea 1:2) Thus He requires Hosea to take him a wife of whoredoms. The Son gets a wife, the Church, who is chaste and virgin, but only because of the redemption provided. (2 Cor. 11:2)

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we no longer need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as a reason for our remaining in Heaven? Let's say, 10 million years after you are there in glory, and in a glorious state, enjoying the fellowship of God and Christ and the saints, in a glorious body, will you still need the redemption Christ provided?

Quantrill

Click to expand...

Greetings Quantrill,

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to me.
Perhaps i can see a more definite link. I think we are told that the Scripture examples were/are a sort of likeness, things which are a shadow of things to come, which we have now read about in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus the Lord?

Yes, Esau was not Christ, but in the 'story' we see how one sold his birthright, a similarity to our position in and thanks be to Christ, that we have a birthright. His flesh got the better of him.
King Saul also let his flesh get the better of him, and the consequence was similar in a way.

Adam was made in the image of God.... are we not, who believe, likewise, or at least meant to be? Jesus was and if we have now received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father,
Adam's flesh got the bettor of him. Do we do likewise?
AND, in all these example we can see our position from one angle or another, so...
do we let the flesh get the better of us....
and if so, what is the consequence?

that was along the lines of my thinking and as I said/wrote, there may well be other similar examples.
We do see other points, too, like David, who messed up big time , was chastened hard, took it and cried out to the LORD, but he still had to accept the consequences regarding the inheritance. Same as his son, Solomon?

there for our learning

thanks again,


Bless you ....><>

@B-A-C
what do you think, as it is your thread, so to speak?

Quantrill said:

So, I don't believe any of these are examples of losing salvation.

As far as what bride we would hope for our son, why would God the Father give His Son such a bride as He has? Like it or not, no matter how good some of us may think we are, no matter how much we think we are not sinning, we are full of sin and always come short. And that is the bride Jesus is getting. Redeemed, and cleansed by God and Christ, but a history of being a sinner.

Click to expand...

Those that that don't continue to "practice" sin and bear the fruit of repentance are forgiven. Those who continue to sin willfully aren't.
If you would like examples of losing salvation, there are dozens of passages.

KingJ said:

There is not a single person on this planet that can go a day with no venial sin.

Click to expand...

1. There is no such thing as venial sin.
2. Yes, we can go a day... a week, a month without sinning. Maybe we can't be perfect, but we certainly don't have to sin everyday.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: Romans 1:26a

Br. Bear said:

Greetings Quantrill,

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to me.
Perhaps i can see a more definite link. I think we are told that the Scripture examples were/are a sort of likeness, things which are a shadow of things to come, which we have now read about in the New Covenant in Christ Jesus the Lord?

Yes, Esau was not Christ, but in the 'story' we see how one sold his birthright, a similarity to our position in and thanks be to Christ, that we have a birthright. His flesh got the better of him.
King Saul also let his flesh get the better of him, and the consequence was similar in a way.

Adam was made in the image of God.... are we not, who believe, likewise, or at least meant to be? Jesus was and if we have now received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father,
Adam's flesh got the bettor of him. Do we do likewise?
AND, in all these example we can see our position from one angle or another, so...
do we let the flesh get the better of us....
and if so, what is the consequence?

that was along the lines of my thinking and as I said/wrote, there may well be other similar examples.
We do see other points, too, like David, who messed up big time , was chastened hard, took it and cried out to the LORD, but he still had to accept the consequences regarding the inheritance. Same as his son, Solomon?

there for our learning

thanks again,


Bless you ....><>

@B-A-C
what do you think, as it is your thread, so to speak?

Click to expand...

I was interested in the question that I asked at the end of post [HASH=1810]#(69[/HASH]).

Quantrill

B-A-C said:

Those that that don't continue to "practice" sin and bear the fruit of repentance are forgiven. Those who continue to sin willfully aren't.
If you would like examples of losing salvation, there are dozens of passages.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. One can produce a long list of how Christians can lose their salvation. But if explanation is given of one of those verses, you don't stop and say, well I guess you can't lose your salvation. You just go find another verse. And if that one is explained, you go find another. And another. And another. Till explanation can't be made for some verse. Then you jump and hollar, 'see there, you can lose your salvation'.

Your statement 'those who continue to sin wilfully, comes from (Heb. 10:26). I have explained it many times already. You understand it by understanding (Heb. 10). Christ's one sacrifice is superior to the many under the Mosaic Law. Thus when you sin wilfully, you don't go get another sacrifice. The one sacrifice of Christ is sufficient. Read (Heb. 10:18). It is actually a very comforting and uplifting verse. Too bad it has been made into such a legalistic baseball bat.

Concerning your statements of sin and repentance and forgiveness, I think you are confusing Christ paying for sin, and Christ forgiving sin. They are not the same. Christ on the Cross was not forgiving sin. He was paying the debt for sin. He did request forgiveness to those who were immediately crucifying Him. But that was to stop the Father from destroying them at the moment. On the Cross Christ was paying the price.

Because Christ paid the price, He can forgive sins. If He doesn't pay the price, He cannot forgive sins. God's forgiveness is not like ours. With ours, we just withhold the just judgement that one might receive. God can't do that. It has to be paid. Thus you either pay it by coming to Christ and accepting His sacrifice. Or you pay it separated from God forever.

So, the one who comes to Christ is 'in Christ'. His sins are paid. All of them. Even the ones he has yet to commit. In his walk of salvation, he sins. Thus the need for daily cleansing. Not to get one back to Heaven, but to maintain his relationship with Christ and God. If he strays, and sins become a habit, yes they will not be forgiven. Which means a certain judgement from God, not to kick him out of Heaven, but to get him back on track. And such judgement's can be severe, and even death. But not a loss of salvation. That is accomplished by faith alone.

I am interested in my question at the bottom of post [HASH=1810]#(69[/HASH]). Could you address it?

Quantrill

B-A-C said:

1. There is no such thing as venial sin.

Click to expand...

Can you prove this?

I see oh so much scripture speaking to mortal and venial sins OT and NT. Everytime I post them, people run from the discussion and rather keep to their opinions off of cherry picked scriptures. It is so important to grasp that sin has degrees. So important! It effects so much of our teaching. Paul basically rebukes those who can't discern degrees in 1 Cor 6:1-9.

B-A-C said:

2. Yes, we can go a day... a week, a month without sinning. Maybe we can't be perfect, but we certainly don't have to sin everyday.

Click to expand...

You do sin everyday. I will bet $1 000 000 on this. Maybe in heaven we can go a month or two without sinning.

Quantrill said:

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we no longer need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as a reason for our remaining in Heaven? Let's say, 10 million years after you are there in glory, and in a glorious state, enjoying the fellowship of God and Christ and the saints, in a glorious body, will you still need the redemption Christ provided?

Quantrill

Click to expand...

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we no longer sin, not even one sin ? If we can sin and get there why couldn't we sin and remain there, surely the blood of Christ covers us for all of eternity. Cause it not like Christ came to take away our sin , not like he can make us perfect , not to have sin anymore. Just because he came in the flesh and didn't sin , surely doesn't mean he could be in us and keep us from sinning, because we know greater is he that is in the world , then he that is in use. And also we can do all things through Christ Jesus, except stop sinning.

norapture said:

Will there ever be a time in eternity when we no longer sin, not even one sin ? If we can sin and get there why couldn't we sin and remain there, surely the blood of Christ covers us for all of eternity. Cause it not like Christ came to take away our sin , not like he can make us perfect , not to have sin anymore. Just because he came in the flesh and didn't sin , surely doesn't mean he could be in us and keep us from sinning, because we know greater is he that is in the world , then he that is in use. And also we can do all things through Christ Jesus, except stop sinning.

Click to expand...

My point concerned the Sacrifice of Christ for us, which redeemed us from our fallen state. I do not see us sinning in Heaven. We sin here because we are a sinner from birth, from Adam. Once in Heaven however, in a glorified state, we will live forever free from sin. Though we live forever free from sin, is Christ's sacrifice still necessary for us to be there?

Christ did come to take away our sin. (John 1:29) (1 John 3:5)
Christ can and will make us perfect. (Eph. 4:13) (Eph. 5:26)
'...greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.' (1 John 4:4)

Once in Heaven we will be free from this body of sin. Our sinning will have ceased.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

I was interested in the question that I asked at the end of post [HASH=1810]#(69[/HASH]).

Quantrill

Click to expand...

Greetings,

I also am often interested in any answers offered in response to questions I might ask and yet often get none, but that's OK.
Sometimes simply putting a question out there is enough, is it not?
If we are after some advantage that we dream up of getting others to respond to a question then we do need to question ourselves and our real motives. We all here are part of an internet forum and what I see is lots of conversations between several different Members which also usually have several different lines of thought being discussed. Nobody has to answer anything i ask and they don't even have to read anything I post. I am fairly sure that goes for everyone else,

As for your question, forgive me please for not answering thus far and thank you for bring it to my attention.

Methinks that love remains throughout eternity and our need for a sacrifice has been met, some 2000 years ago, but if we really want to get with it, 'twas since before the foundation of the world.
We can get a little bit on the fantasy side with things we don't understand because we don't see them (yet) but if we stick to that which we do know, we can be assured that His Word is true and in turn by faith have that hope in us, now, that like a ship will carry us safely home.
When do you think eternity started, for example. Is God held in by our perception of time and space and matter, as we so far understand it?
And Heaven? Can you please tell me a little about Heaven, especially the Heaven you mention in your post #69 ? Are we heaven bound, so to speak, for all the years you mention? Can we glean this info in the Bible?
I can try to answer your question but will my answer address all the variables or possibilities as yet not addressed?

If i read between the lines and ignore everything I have raised here, i can go with the flo and say yay or nay. Perhaps it is a bit of both?
Perhaps we have to tackle a few more things or establish a few more things first to get a definitive? Otherwise we might start talking Christianese and if that is the case there is no point even discussing it.

So perhaps if you don't mind can we first establish when eternity started? Until then let us rejoice that we do have hope and that hope is because Christ did die, once and for all, while we were yet sinners, to Whom be glory .... forever!!!


Bless you ....><>

The answer to my question at the end of post [HASH=1810]#(69[/HASH]) is, yes, we will forever need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ applied to us. For an eternity we will be 'in Christ'. Though, time wise, we be there millions and millions of years, without sin, and in fellowship with God and Christ, we will always be there only because we are saved sinners.

None of our glorious condition for those millions of years, of non-sinning, and perfect fellowship with God and Christ, will add one thing to our ability to be there. The only reason we are there is because somewhere, at sometime, back on this sin laden earth in this sin riddled body, we bowed our head and accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. At that moment we were declared righteous by God. And nothing adds or takes away from it. We don't improve that declared righteousness, as it is not ours to improve. We don't take away from that righteousness as it is not ours to diminish.

Quantrill