Don't forget The Northern kingdom are the lost tribes of Israel and are also considered gentiles.

this is huge thanks so much for this teaching Ray !! tonight I was at bible study, and the discussion about the elect came up and I was not 100% sure, I just always thought it was everyone who was saved. But my buddy is convinced that it is ONLY the Jews. well this comes to play in out discussion of the elect being gathered up in Mathew 24. If the elect is everyone who is saved it seems pretty easy to make a good solid case for the a post trip rapture based on Matthew 24. But if the elect is only Jews then the case for the post trib rapture becomes more difficult.

Great teaching brother !!

A sinner is not elect because he believes. He believes because he is elect.

To me this sounds like the definition of Gods elect,, what do you think??? Like Ray said this points to the gentiles also.


Romans 8:29-33
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

A few more that really seal the deal for the elect being both gentile and Jew. We know Paul is talking mainly to gentiles as that was his commission


Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

"God's outcast" "The REMNANT, "The remnant according to grace", "God's chosen People", 'The Covenant people of God", "The Chosen", "The Elect" ,"The Elected According to Grace" "I have reserved a people to myself" {No one Chooses or aids in their "salvation" no mater how much pride they have, in thinking they do!

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” And David says,

“MAY THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
“MAY THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS CONTINUALLY.”

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
“THIS IS [k]MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” 28In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.


All this should be easy to those who understand some events in the Old Testament. Concerning how GOD dealth with the 12 Tribes of Israel. The different tribes, in so many different ways, throught out the "Historical Books" of the Bible. And the "Types and Shadows" and "Biblical Motifs" of "the Congrregation" in The "Old Testament" and "The Congregation" in the "New Testament" Assembly, of :"The True People of GOD", and "The Sons of GOD". such richness in the Writings of GOD Almighty, that mans writing and stories of things and the world are no match.

Only Two groups in this era, for sure "the Elect" and those who did not get elected"

But just think before the Flood came out of the whole world, only 8 got saved, and only 0ne out those eight was considered righteous!

AND God told Noah who could come into the Boat! He chose which ones! and only one he considered righteous and the rest was wicken! His wife, was not a good wife! no wonder Noah got drunk!

Sometimes these verses are used to say "the elect" is only the Jews. But is that always the case? We might find out otherwise.

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and

A few more that really seal the deal for the elect being both gentile and Jew.

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In Matthew chapter 24, Christ himself plainly describes his return. He states that, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mat. 24:29-31)

Rapture proponents try to argue that the "elect" that Christ is referring to is a specific group of Jewish believers, and not the much larger group that they say has already been "raptured" by that point; but there aren't any verses that say that! If you look closely at this passage, you'll see they are forced to attempt this, because the verse states in a point blank way that this gathering of his elect occurs after the tribulation. In short, because they want to believe in the rapture, they are now put in the position of seeking to redefine another key element of theology in order to defend the pre-conceived view! This is not the way to approach Bible prophecy.

The fact is, there are many, many passages in scripture where the term "elect" is applied to all believers -- both Jewish and Gentile. In fact, in the Old Testament in a passage that is universally understood to be a messianic prophecy, the word "elect" is used to describe Christ himself. Isaiah writes "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." (Isa. 42:1) In Romans, Paul makes a clear distinction between the Jews as "Israel" and the "elect" as the believers in Christ when he says "What then, Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom. 11:7) To the Colossians, who were largely Greeks, Paul writes "...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of god, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies..." (Col. 3:12, 13)

In short, the elect are the Christians, not the ethnic Jews that supposedly get saved after a rapture the scripture fails to mention.

[If you look up the word 'elect,' you'll see that Peter, Paul and John all called the Christians the elect in nine different books! "Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure." (2 Pet. 1:10) The problem is obvious: If the "ELECT" are Jews...how do you make "SURE" you're born a Jew?]

backNforth said:

Rapture proponents try to argue that the "elect" that Christ is referring to is a specific group of Jewish believers, and not the much larger group that they say has already been "raptured" by that point;

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spot on point is why I brought this thread back up, I was in a recent bible study and that is the exact position my buddy took. Caught me off guard a little as I just assumed the elect were everyone, but was not prepared with scripture to back it up. Hence why I have been digging. I will show him scripture next week to back up who the elect are. And see what happens, although he is pretty stern is his pre trib rapture. Shoot I hope he right, but I dont see it, I see the rapture coming at the end of the age when Jesus returns.

The pre-tribulation "rapture" theory is causing massive hemorrhaging in the body of Christ.

Meanwhile, pray that the Lord would remove the scales from the eyes of your buddy (and from yours and mine, as well).

backNforth said:

The pre-tribulation "rapture" theory is causing massive hemorrhaging in the body of Christ.

Meanwhile, pray that the Lord would remove the scales from the eyes of your buddy (and from yours and mine, as well).

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I will thanks the bible speaks of us enduring to the end, about refining us through troubled times, the more I look into this pre trib rapture the more it does not make any sense, they have really stretch scripture to make it work is seems.

more scripture supporting the case

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

B-A-C said:

There is a word Jesus uses frequently in the new Testament. In fact there is only one place in the Bible where someone besides Jesus uses this word.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Three times Jesus uses the word "elect" in Matt 24, in the context of the 'last days'.

Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Matt 24:31; is a quote of an old testament verse... which one exactly is problematic. But likely one of the below, or a combination of them.

Isa 27:13; It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Jer 49:2; "Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "That I will cause a trumpet blast of war to be heard Against Rabbah of the sons of Ammon; And it will become a desolate heap, And her towns will be set on fire. Then Israel will take possession of his possessors," Says the LORD.

Joel 2:1; Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,
Joel 2:15; Blow a trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,

Sometimes these verses are used to say "the elect" is only the Jews. But is that always the case? We might find out otherwise.
But before that, one last verse from Jesus.

Luke 18:7; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

So, OK that's Jesus... does anyone else use the word "elect"? Yes, Paul does in one single verse.
Who did Paul write the book of Romans to? The answer is in Romans itself.

Rom 1:5; through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Rom 1:6; among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Rom 1:7; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

All of the books of Paul were written to Gentiles (the possible exception is Hebrews, which no one knows for sure who wrote)
Romans was written to the Gentiles in Rome. Yet in the verse below, Gentiles are also the "the elect".

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

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In Roman's 8:33 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the Jews.

Butch5 said:

In Roman's 8:33 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the Jews.

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hey Butch who do you say the elect are?

history is laced with christians destroying each other in the name of truth.

Butch5 said:

In Roman's 8:33 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the Jews.

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Remember the only Bible they had was the "Old Testament". The early so call church did not have " New Testament" writings. The "congegation" in acts only had the "old Testament" writings. Look the years of the writings of the books. Paul wrote the letter to the Roman christians around 56AD. Acts was not written until 60AD. And the gospels Matt. 50 AD, Mark 68 AD. Luke 60 AD. John 85-90 AD. There was no paper, printing press, publishers. Book stores, let alone "readers"! And if you could find a reader, who side was he on. You had, the "Colosseum" and amphitheaters in rome most likely not friendly to christians.
The Roman Christians knew nothing of Grace. Paul was giving them in writing what he wanted to give them in person. The Doctrine of Grace what had been reveal to Him by God. The Letter to the Roman Christians in Rome. Is like it has been said a "complete exposition" in the NT , of the central truths of Christianity.

Personally so far in my life and years of study until now, The Book of Hebrews i think fills that truth as well. But the Letter to Romans has not, but has made it clear concerning salvation very clear, and positions in "salvation" cloudy and confusing for many, that only can be revealed in "Christ" and by "Christ", to whom he soever wills to reveal, that truth.

Quite simply , some were chosen before they were even born, everyone else has the opportunity to declare Jesus Christ has there Lord and Saviour, and they will also get gifts of the Holy Spirit and Salvation. The elect are those who were chosen.

Dave M said:

hey Butch who do you say the elect are?

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I believe the elect are Israel.

PloughBoy said:

history is laced with christians destroying each other in the name of truth.


Remember the only Bible they had was the "Old Testament". The early so call church did not have " New Testament" writings. The "congegation" in acts only had the "old Testament" writings. Look the years of the writings of the books. Paul wrote the letter to the Roman christians around 56AD. Acts was not written until 60AD. And the gospels Matt. 50 AD, Mark 68 AD. Luke 60 AD. John 85-90 AD. There was no paper, printing press, publishers. Book stores, let alone "readers"! And if you could find a reader, who side was he on. You had, the "Colosseum" and amphitheaters in rome most likely not friendly to christians.
The Roman Christians knew nothing of Grace. Paul was giving them in writing what he wanted to give them in person. The Doctrine of Grace what had been reveal to Him by God. The Letter to the Roman Christians in Rome. Is like it has been said a "complete exposition" in the NT , of the central truths of Christianity.

Personally so far in my life and years of study until now, The Book of Hebrews i think fills that truth as well. But the Letter to Romans has not, but has made it clear concerning salvation very clear, and positions in "salvation" cloudy and confusing for many, that only can be revealed in "Christ" and by "Christ", to whom he soever wills to reveal, that truth.

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Ok, how does this address what I said?

Butch5 said:

I believe the elect are Israel.

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There are others here that believe that also.
But if that's true, then only Israel will be raptured. Matt 24:31; Mark 13:27;

Also if that's true, then there is no predestination for Gentiles.
Because you're saying only the Jews were "elected".

B-A-C said:

There are others here that believe that also.
But if that's true, then only Israel will be raptured. Matt 24:31; Mark 13:27;

Also if that's true, then there is no predestination for Gentiles.
Because you're saying only the Jews were "elected".

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That's correct. However, we shouldn't confuse elect with saved.

However, predestination has nothing to do with Genfiles. It was the Jews who were predestined to be a nation before God.