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At Peace · May 30, 2018

B-A-C said:
He truly cannot. He has been refuted several times. Scripture has been given that he refuses to acknowledge.
In order for a doctrine to be valid, it has to agree with all scripture... not just a few cherry picked verses.
There are several places where the Bible talks about Christians who sin. But he only recognizes the ones that
say they have to be pefect.

Please show me one scripture that will rationalize a return to sin.
Just one scripture that infers we must repent of sin over and over; crucifying the Son of God over and over...to His shame. (Heb 6:6)
Good trees cannot bear bad fruit. Or are you saying Jesus was wrong in Matt 7:17-18?
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.
Godly seed cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Dave M · May 30, 2018

@At Peace

it saddens me when I read you do not believe Jesus is God,

B-A-C · May 30, 2018

At Peace said:
Good trees cannot bear bad fruit. Or are you saying Jesus was wrong in Matt 7:17-18?

For the most part this is true. Do you live in a city? I live in a farming community. Most of the apple orchards in the US are less than 100 miles away from me.
Virtually all my friends are farmers. I've picked fruit from fruit trees more than once. I would say 95-98% of the trees are pretty healthy. I would guess
(this is just my estimate, nothing scientific) that 95 to 98% of the apple are good eatable apples. But if you think every single tree makes perfectly good apples
100% of the time. You are mistaken. If you think a good tree never makes a bad apple... you are mistaken. Walk around an orchard sometime. Pick some apples
randomly sometime. Chances are... you'll get bad one somewhere in the bushel. Even if all the others are good apples. I have cherry trees in my yard, for the
most part they make good cherries... but sometimes...

I think Jesus knows this as good as anyone. In fact, I think it's it's why He picked trees to illustrate His point.

Curtis · May 30, 2018

The Apostle Paul told Timothy to be an "example" to other believers. (1 Tim 4:12) Surely a person who has godly charter, and other godly traits should be an example to other believers. Not that they are to look up to them beyond who they are, but how the light of God shines through them. We are all living epistles known and read of all men. (2 Cor 3:2)

At Peace · May 30, 2018

Dave M said:
@At Peace

it saddens me when I read you do not believe Jesus is God,

I believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh. (John 1:14)
The Word was God. (John 1:1)
Jesus is not the Father.
Eventually all the manifestations of the Father will be one again. (1 Cor 15:28)

At Peace · May 30, 2018

B-A-C said:
For the most part this is true. Do you live in a city? I live in a farming community. Most of the apple orchards in the US are less than 100 miles away from me.
Virtually all my friends are farmers. I've picked fruit from fruit trees more than once. I would say 95-98% of the trees are pretty healthy. I would guess
(this is just my estimate, nothing scientific) that 95 to 98% of the apple are good eatable apples. But if you think every single tree makes perfectly good apples
100% of the time. You are mistaken. If you think a good tree never makes a bad apple... you are mistaken. Walk around an orchard sometime. Pick some apples
randomly sometime. Chances are... you'll get bad one somewhere in the bushel. Even if all the others are good apples. I have cherry trees in my yard, for the
most part they make good cherries... but sometimes...

I think Jesus knows this as good as anyone. In fact, I think it's it's why He picked trees to illustrate His point.

Then I guess Jesus was wrong.
Either that or you are ignoring the point Jesus was making.

Lets try this parable..."Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matt 7:16)
A grape's seed can only bear grapes.
A thistle? Only more of the same.
What does that say about God's seed on earth now?
It can only bear Godly fruit.

B-A-C · May 31, 2018

At Peace said:
Then I guess Jesus was wrong.
Either that or you are ignoring the point Jesus was making.

One of us certainly is. Which one of our theologies is compatible with the verses below?
Jesus also said "if your brother sins". If he isn't a Christian.. he isn't your brother.
If your theology doesn't work with this. It's a bad doctrine.

Matt 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

At Peace said:
Lets try this parable..."Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matt 7:16)

This verse says a grape vine isn't a fig tree. It says men don't go gather grapes from thorns and thistles.
It doesn't say anything about all the grapes being perfect. You are adding that yourself. The Bible warns about such things.

B-A-C · May 31, 2018

At Peace said:
I believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh. (John 1:14)
The Word was God. (John 1:1)
Jesus is not the Father.
Eventually all the manifestations of the Father will be one again. (1 Cor 15:28)

John 10:30; "I and the Father are one."

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Psa 49:7; No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—
Psa 49:8; For the redemption of his soul is costly, And he should cease trying forever—
Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

A man can't redeem you. Only God can. If Jesus is only a man... you are lost.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Are you a modalist, universalist or something else?

KingJ · May 31, 2018

At Peace said:
I don't know why you would get that from a post that says..."Amen, and thanks for the exhortation.
The next verse is important too..."

Even when I agree with you, you still find fault.

I feel you need to meditate further on the verse 1 Cor 10:12 If you think your standing take heed lest you fall.

When you espouse to be perfect, you are ''thinking you are standing''. You can argue that you do not think you are standing in your strength. But that is just not true. As you don't believe in OSAS. 1 + 1 = 2.

Now that verse applies 100% to you. You need to take heed, lest you fall. Now this does not mean, its ok to think you standing if as long as you watch you don't fall. No, if that were the case this verse would not be mentioned by Paul. Paul is focused on speaking wisdom to the person who thinks he is ''perfect''. IE, take heed if you think you are perfect. Because thinking that leads to an inevitable fall.

Why inevitable fall? Well it's pride. It is a direct route to inflating one's pride.

KingJ · May 31, 2018

B-A-C said:
One of us certainly is. Which one of our theologies is compatible with the verses below?
Jesus also said "if your brother sins". If he isn't a Christian.. he isn't your brother.
If your theology doesn't work with this. It's a bad doctrine.

Matt 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

This verse says a grape vine isn't a fig tree. It says men don't go gather grapes from thorns and thistles.
It doesn't say anything about all the grapes being perfect. You are adding that yourself. The Bible warns about such things.

Case closed. There is no reply to this that can hold water.

B-A-C · May 31, 2018

Since this thread is already hi-jacked (as they all seem to be these days).

1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
1 Jn 5:17; All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Some (Christian) "brothers" sin... this is KJV

Matt 18:15; Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Jesus said if your brother "trespasses" (sins) against you.

Luke 17:3; Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

In the KJV.. this is part of the Lord's prayer.

Matt 6:12; And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Matt 6:13; And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matt 6:14; For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matt 6:15; But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus is telling this to the disciples. Not unbelievers. Not the unsaved. "your trespasses".

Or are these verses wrong as well?

At Peace · May 31, 2018

B-A-C said:
One of us certainly is. Which one of our theologies is compatible with the verses below?
Jesus also said "if your brother sins". If he isn't a Christian.. he isn't your brother.
If your theology doesn't work with this. It's a bad doctrine.
Matt 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

How many Christians were on the earth when Jesus spoke these words?
We know that the Jewish folks, still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, still committed sin.
Jesus made allowances for that.
We have a better option today, since the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
We can be "immersed" into that death, burial and resurrection, taking part in all three aspects.
Having put the old man to death, and having been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, we can walk in the light now, in God now, where there is no sin.

This verse says a grape vine isn't a fig tree. It says men don't go gather grapes from thorns and thistles.
It doesn't say anything about all the grapes being perfect. You are adding that yourself. The Bible warns about such things.

The verse says you cannot get grapes from a fig tree.
You cannot get Godly works from the children of the devil either.
You cannot get devilish fruit from a child of God's seed.
Unless you use bad doctrine.

At Peace · May 31, 2018

KingJ said:
I feel you need to meditate further on the verse 1 Cor 10:12 If you think your standing take heed lest you fall.
When you espouse to be perfect, you are ''thinking you are standing''. You can argue that you do not think you are standing in your strength. But that is just not true. As you don't believe in OSAS. 1 + 1 = 2.
Now that verse applies 100% to you. You need to take heed, lest you fall. Now this does not mean, its ok to think you standing if as long as you watch you don't fall. No, if that were the case this verse would not be mentioned by Paul. Paul is focused on speaking wisdom to the person who thinks he is ''perfect''. IE, take heed if you think you are perfect. Because thinking that leads to an inevitable fall.
Why inevitable fall? Well it's pride. It is a direct route to inflating one's pride.

I guess others were still standing at that time too.
If they adhere to Paul's exhortation, they will continue to stand in the grace and light of God.
What does that say about those who DON'T think they "stand"?
They have rightly judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.

I don't believe in OSAS.
I must endure till the end. (Mk 13:13)

At Peace · May 31, 2018

B-A-C said:
Since this thread is already hi-jacked (as they all seem to be these days).
1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
1 Jn 5:17; All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
Some (Christian) "brothers" sin... this is KJV

I addressed the OT scriptures in an earlier post, but this is from after Christ's resurrection, so I will have a go at it here.
I think it necessary to include one more verse in John's oration...
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
John makes it clear that a "brother" in this case is NOT a brother in Christ.
Perhaps it is a family member or Grecian or Jewish "brother", but not a man who is born of God.
I was that "brother" once, an American brother, a Californian brother, but I turned from sin.
My sin(s) was/were not "unto death", because I quit doing it/them.

I urge you to turn from all sin before your sins are "unto death".
Kill the old man, and be "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:3-6)

KingJ · May 31, 2018

At Peace said:
I guess others were still standing at that time too.
If they adhere to Paul's exhortation, they will continue to stand in the grace and light of God.
What does that say about those who DON'T think they "stand"?
They have rightly judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.

I don't believe in OSAS.
I must endure till the end. (Mk 13:13)

I said you don't believe in OSAS. It makes your belief worse. You must endure to the end. You are perfect til the end. The disagreements the OSAS group have with Arminians, you are at the height of those disagreements. IE Works based salvation. Even though you keep saying '''God does the work''. You just don't get that you don't actually believe that. You do the work. You keep yourself perfect. All praise and glory to ....you....

At Peace · May 31, 2018

KingJ said:
I said you don't believe in OSAS. It makes your belief worse. You must endure to the end. You are perfect til the end. The disagreements the OSAS group have with Arminians, you are at the height of those disagreements. IE Works based salvation. Even though you keep saying '''God does the work''. You just don't get that you don't actually believe that. You do the work. You keep yourself perfect. All praise and glory to ....you....

"ME" is dead and gone.
Like Paul says..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Ga; 2:20)
Does Christ live in the vessels of the murderer or thief?
Thanks be to God, I am reborn from His seed that cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
You can be too, but it will require you to permanently turn from sin as a first step. (Acts 2:38)

Dave M · May 31, 2018

At Peace said:
I believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh. (John 1:14)
The Word was God. (John 1:1)
Jesus is not the Father.
Eventually all the manifestations of the Father will be one again. (1 Cor 15:28)

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.

John 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

At Peace · May 31, 2018

Dave M said:
Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.
John 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Titus 2:13
Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

.Jesus was the Word made flesh.
The Word was with God and was God.
The Word is differentiated from the Father, as well as united with the Father...but at different times and places.
Jesus was the Word: part of yet a separate manifestation of the Father, while on earth.
Neither of us is wrong here.

The main thing to acknowledge is that neither Jesus, the Father, nor the Word are King of those who disobey Him/Them.

Br. Bear · Jun 1, 2018

Now He which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 2Corinthians 1:21-22

Greetings,

At Peace said:
The main thing to acknowledge is that neither Jesus, the Father, nor the Word are King of those who disobey Him/Them.

excuse my butting in...
could you please come at that again, perhaps in a different tongue, as i can not interpret what you are saying.

Bless you ....><>

ps.. Jesus is the Word of God, hence Christ.

For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2Corinthians 1:20

Br. Bear · Jun 1, 2018

@At Peace
Greetings,

At Peace said:
You can be too, but it will require you to permanently turn from sin as a first step. (Acts 2:38)

I underlined your words there.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:37-39

Forgive me if I get this wrong according to either how it is or your understanding....
The be baptized bit...
is that 'be baptized... ...for remission of sins' or 'repent... ...for the remission of sins' or both?

Going back to your words quoted above,
So, does repent mean " to permanently turn from sin as a first step" and of course, the same question for be baptized and/or both?

does one have to permanently turn from sin as part of the regeneration/born again or whatever it gets called by all and sundry? OR...
is the regeneration part by God alone, (not of works, as you know) the new mind and heart and life that is permanently turned from sin.... I suppose with the proviso that the recipient remains faithful?

If this is too deep, please excuse me. His love is depthless.

Bless you ....><>

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