Greetings again,
I know I have already said it but I would like to re-say what I said before and will use the following words (how well they line up with that which i wrote before I do not know, but this has been repeating to me over the last few days in connection with this thread).
What I am seeing here is something that happens often when Christians get debating things. Namely that we find ourselves debating over concepts that have arisen out of traditional teaching passed on to us when we begin listening to men rather than the Lord, especially in regards to what is written in Scripture for us to read and see. We tend to somehow see the things we hear (or read in books or forums etc) and read the Scriptures with those glasses on. What happens is we then read things that are NOT there and leave out the bits that are. Because everything gets a heading to it in our minds, (understanding and interpretation being part of that) we come at Scripture with these headings and all we then see is the Scripture bits that align with those headings. As with the example here of Children and coming as children, etc. We completely overlook what IS written because it does not line up with that which we come at it with. We then begin discussing the man made precepts and eventually become divided at some point which is not at all what the Scriptures are given for. From there we tend to categorize one another depending on their talk. Again, this is rather than depending on God's talk which, as far as I understand, directs us like a captain directs a ship, to think not ourselves better than the next Christian man, nor forsake all the aspects of love and fruit in communicating and relationship with one another.
We can end up in a rather nasty and sticky web. I do not believe for a second that any one of us really wants that.
If we take an un-traditional look at the verses we tend to quote to talk about child like faith or similar expressions, we should be able to see, in the context of Scripture (NOT the context of tradition taught to us by others) that Jesus was throughout the 4 Gospels, some more evidently that others,
(and the Apostle Paul filled up any that remained as he was set apart to do, called out of season) giving the Disciples (an other who would hear Him) the whole teaching that they were to understand as 'time' revealed it to them. Of course it was the Lord by His Spirit Who revealed it to them. After the resurrection of our Lord they understood much of what He had taught them. Some things He had told them specifically to not tell about until afterwards, also. I think that much of what He taught was really brought out to them after what we call Pentecost and from what I see in my own life, as an ongoing reminding of all that He did teach them, as needed for the purpose of keeping them and providing them with the things needed for each and every moment of their time here.
Getting to the Children part, it is reasonably clear, if we read the words and stop listening to the traditional ideas, that Jesus was saying to His disciples, who He was discipling/teaching/ preparing that, entering in to the Kingdom of Heaven meant first becoming children... which ,please remember, was not a favourable position in society in their tradition. Children were loved etc but they were children, not men. Even youth (what we might today classify as teen-agers up until around the 25 yo age) were not considered as men. Whn talkimng about being the greatest, remember, they were not thinking about the greatest from a child's perspective but as men who, like today, rally to be number one in near everything they do, even if in secret, and they were being not childish but serious about it. Someone great in a kingdom had to be a man, and that was a no-brainer, to them. Please try to see the next bit.
Except ye become as little children meant except ye are willing to have the staus of a child... you will not enter in. To where? The Scripture tells us the Kingdom of Heaven. we also know that Isaiah tells of Jesus as the Everlasting Father. Except we are willing to become His Children, we will not enter in. NOT, "except you start having child like faith".... No, it actually would take a much more adult style of strong faith to accept that sort of prerequisite.
We must remember that these men were completely surrounded by and living out all their traditions and culture. They were NOT yet born again. Children were children and definitely not men and I imagine that like today, a man being called childish would be taken as somewhat of an insult and a derogatory slap in the face. Not a compliment or a suggestion of the level of faith they had.
Consider the several times in the New Testament we see men addressed as children by the Apostles. Why? They were men. But did they take offence to it? I doubt it very much for they had become children of God through the new birth. Someone who is born is never born a man. They might be men-in-the-making but they are not men, but babes and children until they mature.
So, debating over other principals to hold up a wrong analogy of Scripture is rather silly... almost childish, but we do it! For example, debating about if we need to have child like faith to then have a child like innocence to enter in, is absurd at best. We all do it or have at least done it, although there may be one or two exceptions, but probably not.
Perhaps in a very simple way, I could ask,
where in Scripture does it say, expressly, child like faith? Only Scripture without our slant on it? If anyone can show me, please do.
Look online, for example at this page where it is headed 'Faith of a Child' and is only Scripture. There are none that actually testify to 'Child like faith'. There are 100 verses under that heading. And it is in ESV which, being modern, if they could twist it to say 'Child like Faith" they would have. Some of these Scriptures are used regularly and have been for years, to back up this traditional teaching of 'Child like Faith'.
What Does the Bible Say About Faith Of A Child?
IN this webpage
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT FAITH OF A CHILD which is KJV, there are much fewer verses but still no mention of 'Child Like Faith'
You might notice this one though....
Matthew 18:3 -
And [Jesus] said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Except ye .. what? Have child like faith? or, be converted, which will result in you becoming as children (which is somewhat against the flesh and carnal way of becoming great or even being able to show your bearded head in public)... ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Sort of losing ones life to save it. Losing face we might call it. It is SO important to be a man... isn't it, men? Really and honestly... being a man is and always has been very important. A man in every way we look and move and have our reputation. So, the result of being converted will render you as if you were children... and therefore need a daddy all over again when, after growing up, you are finally a man in your own right, has some reservations to it... but, except ye do..... no entry!
So are we to start behaving like children? Will that give us a free ticket. We know it won't. Except ye have childlike faith ye won't enter? No. Child like faith has no grip on reality. We need faith of men to accept that we will be OK becoming children of the King and not only OK but blessed by God Himself for trusting Him with full bottled faith of men. we are not called to stick our thumbs in our mouth and say goo goo gaa gaa and call that faith.
Jesus was also adding to all else He taught them about what was in front of them, which meant that they would understand when it all happened, and would be able to say to one another.. "do you remember how Jesus told us of these things? Now it all makes sense." It's like Jesus saying to them, "This is what it's all about... this new life you are called to" "You are going to become My Children and I, your Father"
Going back to what I said earlier, because I may have gone on too long, we must see that Jesus was talking to His disciples who He was preparing by the things He spoke and the things He did, for what was to come, and I do not think any of them had any idea that they would be such mighty Apostles and be setting up the Church and laying permanent foundations for it to grow on. 'Unless you are willing to become my Children, you can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven you will be doing so as children, of Mine, not as men who make their own decisions.'
Remember that the Kingdom of Heaven is God's domain, not man's... our relationship with Him will be as His Children. All of us.
Our Father.... a group of children would pray that, wouldn't they? All of the teaching of Jesus to the Disciples can be seen clearly from our advantage point having them all written down for us and set out in our language if we both read through (or listen to a recording) the whole of a Gospel and hear what is actually being told to them. It becomes so evident. Jesus was preparing them. The point about becoming as little children was part of that preparation and instruction so that they would understand when the time was right.. and full. It was about the relationship principal of the Kingdom of Heaven between us and God.
He had been telling them for a long time already, which we can see in the Old Testament.
Anyone who has been world-set in their thinking and is to even consider the Gospel to be wortth considering, must muster up as much faith as possible as it really goes against the grain of our thinking as men. We don't come at such a total surrender on the amount of childish faith that a child would muster, We are overcoming our manhood and that needs to be met with at least as much manly faith.
Bless you ....><>
