Imputed Righteousness?

B-A-C · Jan 18, 2018

It seems that something "imputed" righteous is another thing that separates the church today.
It's a polarizing subject. Some believe it is the "only" kind of righteousness. But others believe we have the ability to do righteousness as well. So what does imputed mean?

I rarely post scripture using the King James. But I will here because it's one of the few versions that uses
the word "imputed" in these verses.

Paul is talking about Abraham in the verses below.

[KJV]
Rom 4:10; How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11; And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12; And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 4:20; He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22; And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23; Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Most modern translations use the word "credited" in place of imputed.

[NASB]
Rom 4:19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
Rom 4:20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 4:23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
Rom 4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

One point of view says... this particular "credit of righteousness" entirely pays off your account. Both
past and future debts. It's a "done deal". It doesn't matter how you live, your sins are paid for.
Some of these people will say... it "does" matter how you live... but if that's the case, then your righteousness matters.

The other point of view says... this righteousness is "credited" to our account, and pays off all of our
pasts debts.... but not necessarily all of our future debts. Everyone who believes this point of view also believes it "does" matter how you live after you get saved.

There is a "Christian" denomination called "antimonianism". The church of no moral law.
These are perhaps the most "imputed righteousness" followers. We've had a few of these people here
on TalkJesus over the years. But they believe all you have to do for "imputed righteousnesss" is believe
in Jesus. They also believe that once you believe in Jesus... you can no longer sin.

1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now they think you can still commit adultery, murder, homosexuality, child molesting, wife abuse, alcohol abuse, etc.... but it doesn't matter. It isn't sin. (not my words.. theirs) They call this "bad behavior", but it isn't sin. Because if I am "born of God" I cannot sin ( 1 Jn 3:9; ) Therefore I am not able to sin, even if I wanted to.

.. to be continued ...

B-A-C · Jan 18, 2018

Another point of view says... Yes the "imputed" righteousness only comes from believing in Jesus and being "born of God"
(or born again)... but we still have to try to live righteously... "as best we can". This group believes righteousness only
comes from God/Jesus, but you are in fact still able to sin. In fact the only real difference between this group and the antimonians above is.... instead of calling sin "bad behavior"... we still call it "sin". We shouldn't sin... but even if we do... we have an advocate
( 1 Jn 2:1; ) The ironic thing about this point of view is.... we "shouldn't" sin. But even if we do Jesus covers us "no matter what".
We cannot get "unsaved" even if we wanted to. (not my words, theirs). Similar to antimonianists above.. this group says...
"we will never stop sinning, we are unable to stop sinning"... therefore we will rely on the "imputed" righteousness of
Christ alone for our salvation. (Because we can never be righteous)

... to be continued...

At Peace · Jan 18, 2018

B-A-C said:
Another point of view says... Yes the "imputed" righteousness only comes from believing in Jesus and being "born of God"
(or born again)... but we still have to try to live righteously... "as best we can". This group believes righteousness only
comes from God/Jesus, but you are in fact still able to sin. In fact the only real difference between this group and the antimonians above is.... instead of calling sin "bad behavior"... we still call it "sin". We shouldn't sin... but even if we do... we have an advocate
( 1 Jn 2:1; ) The ironic thing about this point of view is.... we "shouldn't" sin. But even if we do Jesus covers us "no matter what".
We cannot get "unsaved" even if we wanted to. (not my words, theirs). Similar to antimonianists above.. this group says...
"we will never stop sinning, we are unable to stop sinning"... therefore we will rely on the "imputed" righteousness of
Christ alone for our salvation. (Because we can never be righteous)

... to be continued...

Good, in depth studies.
I have found that the hardest to convince that they can actually live with out sin are the people who say they already do.

B-A-C · Jan 18, 2018

I would like to take a second and talk about works vs sin. There always seems to be some confusion and disagreement here.

For example... I can't do any good "works" to get saved. What are some examples of good works....
Helping old ladies across the street. Giving money to charities, mowing the neighbors grass for free, cleaning my room to make
mom happy, giving Bibles away, and teaching a Sunday school class.... now while all these things are good things to do.
They don't save you. There are no verses in the Bible that say "thou shalt help old ladies across the street", or "thou shalt mow
thy neighbors grass". It isn't a sin if you don't do these things... they are just "good works".

On the other hand.... things like lying, stealing, cheating, committing fornication, committing adultery, homosexuality, are sin.
There are several verses in the Bible each of the above. There are verses that say "thou shalt not commit murder", "thou shalt not steal",
etc... these aren't simply "bad works"... they are sin. Plain and simple. So works and sin are not the same thing at all.

... to be continued ...

B-A-C · Jan 18, 2018

There is another point of view that says, "our" righteousness does matter.

These people don't believe our righteousness alone will save us. No one gets saved without Jesus. But they do say at least some righteousness
is required in our part. Some verses used to support this are Matt 5:20; "unless your righteousness..."
Rom 6:13; "..present your members as instruments of righteousness..."
Rom 6:16; "...of your obedience resulting in righteousness.."
2 Cor 9:10; "...increase the harvest of your righteousness..."
1 Tim 6:11; "..pursue righteousness..."
Heb 11:33; "... performed acts of righteousness.."
1 Jn 2:29; "... everyone who practices righteousness..."
1 Jn 3:7; "... the one who practices righteousness..."
Matt 1:19; "Joseph, her husband being a righteous man..."
Matt 5:45; "... send rain on the righteous, and the unrighteous..."
Matt 25:37; "..then the righteous will answer Him..."
Luke 1:6; "They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly..."

These verse seem to say.. we ourselves are capable of righteousness. As opposed to Rom 3:10; "there is none righteous, not even one"
which of course is speaking about trying to achieve righteousness by the law. This is of course a quote of Psalms 53:1-4;
But a few verses later... Psalms 5:22; He will not allow the righteous to be shaken..." so there were "some" righteous, at least in other generations.
Noah was a righteous man... ( Gen 6:9; Gen 7:1; ) The righteous man will be glad in the Lord ( Psalms 64:10; )
The curse of the Lord is on the wicked, but He bless the dwelling of the righteous. ( Prov 3:33; )

There were many righteous people in the Bible. Even in the old testament.

At Peace · Jan 18, 2018

B-A-C said:
I would like to take a second and talk about works vs sin. There always seems to be some confusion and disagreement here.

For example... I can't do any good "works" to get saved. What are some examples of good works....
Helping old ladies across the street. Giving money to charities, mowing the neighbors grass for free, cleaning my room to make
mom happy, giving Bibles away, and teaching a Sunday school class.... now while all these things are good things to do.
They don't save you. There are no verses in the Bible that say "thou shalt help old ladies across the street", or "thou shalt mow
thy neighbors grass". It isn't a sin if you don't do these things... they are just "good works".

On the other hand.... things like lying, stealing, cheating, committing fornication, committing adultery, homosexuality, are sin.
There are several verses in the Bible each of the above. There are verses that say "thou shalt not commit murder", "thou shalt not steal",
etc... these aren't simply "bad works"... they are sin. Plain and simple. So works and sin are not the same thing at all.

... to be continued ...

Almost every scripture in the NT mentioning "works" is aimed at "the works of the Law": not at "helping others as we would like to be helped"
Please continue..

Lanolin · Jan 19, 2018

Hooray you are reading from KJV a version I understand.

People can have all the points of views they like but we ought to ask God for HIS view. Our own views can be confusing... nothing wrong with KJV its just peoples misunderstanding of it. I dont know anybody who thinks these ways from reading KJV that those sins arent sins but bad behaviour. That makes zero sense. But peoples views dont ever make sense. So really you shouldnt worry about them.

If they are wrong God will let them know quick smart. You cant alwaya be thinking 'im always right' because how do you know you are right anyway. It actually takes faith to be righteous - faith In Jesus.

If you read the passages before the ones you quoted Paul talks about Abraham and David.

What was it that counted abraham for righteousness even whem he was uncircumcised was because he believed in Gods promise for an heir even when he was 100 years old and sarah also elderly. This takes faith.

Likewise what counts for our righteousness is we believe in Jesus that he rise from the dead. Not circumcision which is a 'work'

Again BAC please read your bible in order and you wont be confusing 'works' with helping old ladies across the street. Actually they are pretty mobile these days! Paul was writing about circumcision and explaining that being circumcised in the flesh did not mean you were righteous. Having faith imputes righteousness.

This is why I started a topic on circumcision so that we can understand why God required it of the israelites, especially the men. What is the spirit of bondage to fear? Vs the spirt of adoption? Why did the male children need to be circumcised did this make them heirs to the israelite family? Well in the flesh, yes, but it didnt necessarily mean they were faithful.

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

At Peace said:
Almost every scripture in the NT mentioning "works" is aimed at "the works of the Law": not at "helping others as we would like to be helped"

I would disagree with "almost every". But if that is indeed the case. Why does sin matter?

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

are these works the law?

John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

How about these works? Where they the law, or were healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding the hungry?

How about these?

John 10:25; Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
John 10:32; Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

John 14:12; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Is this the works of the law?

1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

Is this?

1 Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Are these the law?

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Luk 7:22 And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

Is this works of the law?

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Many times in the new testament... works have nothing to do with "works of the law".

Although there are some verses that specifically mention "works of the law".

Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Gal 2:16; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:5; So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:10; For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

But my point in separating the "two types of works".

Is that while good works (even works of the law, if you want to go there.) may not save you.
However wickedness and sin.... will keep you from being saved.

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

Lanolin said:
Again BAC please read your bible in order and you wont be confusing 'works' with helping old ladies across the street

Luke 10:33; "But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
Luke 10:34; and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
Luke 10:35; "On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
Luke 10:36; "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"

This might be a trick question... but was this a "work of the law"? If so... which law?

1 Pet 5:5; You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

For what it's worth, I've read the entire Bible at least 30 times. Front to back, chronologically,
according to "read the Bible in a year" plans, and sometimes over several years.
I dare say I was teaching Bible studies before you were born. My generation was taught to respect those who have been around a while... even if we don't agree with everything about them. I'm sorry Lanolin, but you need to "lighten up". You don't exactly have the best reputation for being a Bible scholar here.

KingJ · Jan 19, 2018

B-A-C said:
There are no verses in the Bible that say "thou shalt help old ladies across the street", or "thou shalt mow
thy neighbors grass". It isn't a sin if you don't do these things... they are just "good works".

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Whilst I agree this does not save you, I would argue you cannot do this without being saved / close to being saved.

KingJ · Jan 19, 2018

B-A-C said:
Now they think you can still commit adultery, murder, homosexuality, child molesting, wife abuse, alcohol abuse, etc.... but it doesn't matter. It isn't sin. (not my words.. theirs) They call this "bad behavior", but it isn't sin. Because if I am "born of God" I cannot sin ( 1 Jn 3:9; ) Therefore I am not able to sin, even if I wanted to... to be continued ...

I am interested to hear your view BAC. Since you believe we can lose our salvation. In order for this to happen A. What good things do we stop doing and B. What sinful things do we start doing?

I agree with those above who would call sin bad behavior. I would only argue the type of sin. As mortal sins point to being further lost. Not / Never truly saved.

Dave M · Jan 19, 2018

what I believe is we are saved once and for all, and if we mess up we loose rewards.I do believe if you are saved you will be a different person and your heart will changed.

But I do respect those who believe we can loose salvation, I just think it is rewards we loose. Once we are saved we are to store up treasure in heaven

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

KingJ said:
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Whilst I agree this does not save you, I would argue you cannot do this without being saved / close to being saved.

Thank you for that verse, I was looking for it earlier when I was talking about "helping old ladies".
I agree with everything you say here, but even if this is true.... do these works save you?
(I know you already answered this above).

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

Dave M said:
But I do respect those who believe we can loose salvation, I just think it is rewards we loose. Once we are saved we are to store up treasure in heaven

I have tried to steer clear of OSAS in this thread. But I would ask... "are there two kinds of sins"?

Are there really "small sins".. say drinking, smoking, cheating on your taxes, speeding, eating too much....
Are they any less sin than murder, homosexuality, adultery, etc...... does God see them as less?

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

KingJ said:
I agree with those above who would call sin bad behavior. I would only argue the type of sin. As mortal sins point to being further lost. Not / Never truly saved.

I am starting to see a common thread between you and Dave M here.

But the same question goes for you.

B-A-C said:
Are there really "small sins".. say drinking, smoking, cheating on your taxes, speeding, eating too much....
Are they any less sin than murder, homosexuality, adultery, etc...... does God see them as less?

What is an example of a "mortal sin"? What scriptures support this?

Dave M · Jan 19, 2018

B-A-C said:
I have tried to steer clear of OSAS in this thread. But I would ask... "are there two kinds of sins"?

Are there really "small sins".. say drinking, smoking, cheating on your taxes, speeding, eating too much....
Are they any less sin than murder, homosexuality, adultery, etc...... does God see them as less?

BAC I am with lets stay clear of the OSAS discussion. but to address your question and I think its a great question I think there are two types of hearts and both commit sin.

One heart is wicked and has no repentance unsaved person

the other heart is of a saved person t heart is loving and caring and repents and is sorry they have sinned, eventually through real repentance I believe Jesus will free them from practicing a particular sin but even if they think one second through the day with out practicing that sin they have sinned according the bible so can we say we are sin free when one second of thought guided in the wrong direction is sin, this is the difference between a saved person although he just sinned with that one second of thought he now has the power to over come practicing that sin and not act on it. But since he thought it even if its just for a second he has sinned. this is how I see it just my opinion.

What about sin that you do not even realize you have done, your heart is in the right place yet you have sinned. Getting angry with someone is same as killing them according to the bible. Can anyone among us claim that they have not gotten the slightest bit angry at someone say over the last month, even if its just for a split second. This is sin according to the bible. you may have cursed someone driving down the road and not even realized it or thought about it yet the bible tells us this is the same as killing that person.

so in conclusion two types of hearts one type of sin is my answer.

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

Dave M said:
Getting angry with someone is same as killing them according to the bible. Can anyone among us claim that they have not gotten the slightest bit angry at someone say over the last month

Just to split hairs here... getting angry is not a sin. Letting the sun go down on it is (holding a grudge).
But calling someone "good for nothing" is the same as murder, so I understand what you are saying here.

At Peace · Jan 19, 2018

B-A-C said:
I would disagree with "almost every". But if that is indeed the case. Why does sin matter?

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
are these works the law?

John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
How about these works? Where they the law, or were healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding the hungry?

How about these?
John 10:25; Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
John 10:32; Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
John 14:12; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Is this the works of the law?
1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
Is this?
1 Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
Are these the law?

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Luk 7:22 And He answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Is this works of the law?

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Many times in the new testament... works have nothing to do with "works of the law".

Although there are some verses that specifically mention "works of the law".
Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Gal 2:16; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:5; So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:10; For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

But my point in separating the "two types of works".

Is that while good works (even works of the law, if you want to go there.) may not save you.
However wickedness and sin.... will keep you from being saved.

Yikes!
I had no idea there were so many verses concerning our duty/privilege to manifest God's grace in us...as opposed by the exhortations of Paul against the Judaizers. (Which are also plentiful.)
I do see your point.
But I am confused by your phrasing..."works versus sin".
In your context, they are opposites.
I was thinking more in the line of "works-labor against sin".

B-A-C · Jan 19, 2018

At Peace said:
But I am confused by your phrasing..."works versus sin".
In your context, they are opposites.

That's because I believe they are sometimes different.

Can you give an example of a work of the law that is sin? ...Perhaps circumcision, animal sacrifice, confessing to a priest, etc..
Can you give an example of a "work" of the law that is NOT sin? Is murder sin? Is adultery sin? Is fornication sin? Is stealing a sin?
(all those things were sin under the law) ... even more to the point.... can you name a sin... any sin at all... that is not defined in the
law (at least indirectly) If not.... how does anyone know if they are sinning?

KingJ for example... says he wouldn't call those things sin. Just "bad behavior".

I agree with those above who would call sin bad behavior.

So he would be one of those who "can't sin"... even he wanted to.

Dave M · Jan 19, 2018

Seems pretty clear if you are practicing this type of stuff you are in big trouble to me that says you aint getting in to heaven. Seems these types of sin lead to death.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is very interesting

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

One of my favorites

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

maybe there is different types of sins ??

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