amadeus2 said:

Of course this depends upon what is meant by "saved". People are saved from evil things, but then fail to hold the course to the end with Jesus. I believe it is the ones who fail to hold the course with Him who will be spit out. I believe that everyone began "cold" and when they moved to the Master [if they did] they moved away from the cold toward the hot. If we put a cold pot of water on the fire it will become hot, but if we turn down the heat or move the pot so that only a small part of it remains on the flame, it will soon become lukewarm.



All that we have includes all of our decisions which remain to be made until we have finished our time here. While our hearts remain open to the temptations of this world [lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life], it is possible for us to partake of them. When we succumb to such temptations and actually sin, we are moving away from the heat toward the cold.

This is how I understand it.

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Firstly, I agree with us having this Arminian mindset that you and BAC have. Paul is crystal clear that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12 and not to be too confident lest we fall 1 Cor 10:12. It is much better to teach and believe that over free grace. Free grace is close to satanism.

But I do not believe it is the truth Amadeus. I believe once we are saved we have moved beyond the simplicity of being able to go from hot to cold. You make a good point with our ''All'' including all decisions remaining to be made. I can see you have discussed this in depth before to make such a statement :wink:. But, I just don't buy into it.

I have four issues I would like you to meditate / comment on. These are four matters that fully persuade me on the truth to OSAS.

1. God does not make mistakes
2. Criminal on the cross
3. James 5:20 ''Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins''.
4. Paul's preaching style, evident specifically in 1 Cor 5.

1. Salvation is a gift from God. God either gives it or He does not. Rom 9 says He can choose. The rest of scripture, specifically John 3:16 tells us who He does in fact decide to choose, 'the whomsoever'. The whomsoever will repent, hate what is evil, carry their cross, deny themselves, lay down their lives for God. God judges our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11 at a level we can't before He chooses to save us from death / graft us into His family as adopted sons and daughters. God does not make the mistake of washing a devil or Judas with the blood of Jesus.

2. Alive for a few hours and then off to eternal bliss. Whereas us on earth who are kept here for longer, do more for God.....and yet have a risk of going...lukewarm ...and going to hell. If OSAS is not true we should all be joining the army and asking to be in the frontlines.

3. This verse is a parallel to the OSAS argument. One good act from a depth of intent covers a multitude of sins. Except in the case of salvation / born again, covers us 100%. Example: Lets say you were bullied your whole life by person X. Person X then takes a bullet for you in the army. Will you tolerate person X in your house despite what he has done / still does? Of course you will.

On earth we will never be perfect Rom 7:15. God will always consider the day we decided to repent sincerely / follow Matt 16:24 / got saved / washed by the blood of Jesus when He looks at us.

4. When Paul preached, he knew who was devout and who was not. As did Jesus. But yet they would never single out those who weren't, by name. They allowed their preaching to do it. So Paul makes statements like '''It is reported that one of you is committing incest 1 Cor 5:1''. 1 Cor 5:11 Not to keep company with any called a brother who do these things''. Do you really believe Paul believed they are brothers? Paul had no doubt that these people were not brothers according to 1 Cor 6:9-13. As did Jesus in Matt 7:18. So we see that Paul and Jesus are not anti OSAS, it is just that we don't grasp their respectful to all style of preaching.

Hmm can I just add, God does not make mistakes, but humans do. And sometimes people take a while to repent or they are in bondage. Or it could be they listen to a false gospel, or never grasped the meaning of it.
There are many conditions of peoples hearts as the parable of the sower tells us.

I think as people continue to walk its not always plain sailing because we do get buffeted by satan and if we dont hold fast we can begin to sink like Peter did. But it is a day by day, even moment by moment for many people, and Gods mercies are new each morning. When you are a toddler you cannor run before you can walk, and many christians you notice are at this toddler stage, you cant say they havent been saved, Jesus says leave for a year, dig and dung it and then see if the tree bears fruit.

To be a disciple takes some learning, Yes sometimes it looks like people are dramatically converted and transformed, but with others its a process. And God has a lot of patience. For example, Paul, he did turn from dark to light but doesnt mean to say one day he was persecuting christians and the next day he set out on. Missionary journey! He had to learn for another 14 years I think it was and then set out.

All Christian believers are "disciples", but not all disciples are "believers". A disciple is a person who learns, and believes what is being taught by the one teaching, and then follows them. It is the believer whose actions change to match up to what has been taught, because what has been taught and believed on changes (their actions) them.

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

Hmm very true curtis.

I have some people I questioned in church and they dont even believe in the resurrection. But they go to church. Im like...uh..why are here if you dont even believe Jesus raised from the dead?

Some people think that when you die it just doesnt matter if you are burnt up or cremated well no, in the bible its quite clear on the matter what cremation is.

But yea some people are so fixed in their worldly, idolatrous ways they not going give that up, they will hold on to everything to the bitter end while saying yea I pray, but you notice they only pray for bigger or more houses to store all their stuff!!

Lanolin said:

Hmm very true curtis.

I have some people I questioned in church and they dont even believe in the resurrection. But they go to church. Im like...uh..why are here if you dont even believe Jesus raised from the dead?

Some people think that when you die it just doesnt matter if you are burnt up or cremated well no, in the bible its quite clear on the matter what cremation is.

But yea some people are so fixed in their worldly, idolatrous ways they not going give that up, they will hold on to everything to the bitter end while saying yea I pray, but you notice they only pray for bigger or more houses to store all their stuff!!

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Many people go to Church not because they believe the Gospel, but because of fear of going to hell. Fear is the wrong motive to go to Church. It is out of repentance, and then believing what God says that a person comes to the lord.

Mat 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

A "violent" person is someone who does not think through the consequences of their actions before doing something. What does it cost to be a disciple, and believer in Jesus? Everything!!

@KingJ First part of response to post #21

Firstly, I agree with us having this Arminian mindset that you and BAC have. Paul is crystal clear that we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12 and not to be too confident lest we fall 1 Cor 10:12. It is much better to teach and believe that over free grace. Free grace is close to satanism.

But I do not believe it is the truth Amadeus. I believe once we are saved we have moved beyond the simplicity of being able to go from hot to cold. You make a good point with our ''All'' including all decisions remaining to be made. I can see you have discussed this in depth before to make such a statement

. But, I just don't buy into it.

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In a sense I agree with you, but...


I believe that all of the time that God has given to each of us is our time of trial, unless we are reprobate [one who has sinned an unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost)] and remain after our final condemnation to work as the left hand of God. The number of reprobates is likely few and I cannot say definitely that I have known even one. I wouldn’t recognize one unless God had a reason to show one to me.


On the other hand, although each of us completes his course according to his own choices, God who forknew all things knew before we did what our final result was to be: that is whether we would be with Him always or not. So in this sense, yes, a person’s final stop is established, but it is still based on all of the decisions he makes during his allotted time even if his time is not yet ended.


Does this seem a contradiction or an impossibility? For us to understand it may be impossible, but what is impossible for God?

I have four issues I would like you to meditate / comment on. These are four matters that fully persuade me on the truth to OSAS.

1. God does not make mistakes

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Absolutely, I agree that God makes no mistakes, but remember that all of His plan was established before any man was created. Who knows all of His plan but Him? I have an idea as do you according to what God has shown us, but who but God knows the whole thing definitely?


Anyone but God who has not finished his course is still likely in many things seeing through a glass darkly [see I Cor 13:12].

2. Criminal on the cross

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So his allotted time after meeting the Master was less than many, but what does that mean anyway? Did not Jesus explain it here?


“But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. ” Luke 23:48


God’s judgment is not according to what we know at the end of our course, but rather in accord with what we have done or are doing with what we have been and being given during out allotted time: “Much is given, much is required”. The so-called good thief on the cross was given little time, so God would judge in accord with that small amount of time. From you and I who have already had more time since meeting the Master than that crucified thief and who have had access to the written NT , doesn’t it seem that God will require more? Is not His judgment fair? Isn’t this why no one else could possible render a fair final judgment?

3. James 5:20 ''Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins''.

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So given the above citation, I suppose your point is that as we work for God that God is hiding or erasing or forgiving or forgetting the errors that we have made. Isn’t it all covered by what Jesus said in Luke 12:48? If I am misunderstanding what you intended with this please clarify and I will try to respond.

4. Paul's preaching style, evident specifically in 1 Cor 5.

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See my response after your explanation after number 4 below.

@KingJ Second part of response to post #21

1. Salvation is a gift from God. God either gives it or He does not. Rom 9 says He can choose. The rest of scripture, specifically John 3:16 tells us who He does in fact decide to choose, 'the whomsoever'. The whomsoever will repent, hate what is evil, carry their cross, deny themselves, lay down their lives for God. God judges our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11 at a level we can't before He chooses to save us from death / graft us into His family as adopted sons and daughters. God does not make the mistake of washing a devil or Judas with the blood of Jesus.

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What is necessary for each of us is growth. When we repent for the first time, our repentance covers what we know and perhaps some of what we don’t know of the things wrong in our course up to that point. A prime example of this is Job who in the very first verse of the Book bearing his name is called a “perfect man”. He was perfect in the eyes of God for what the man had at the moment, but God was going help Job grow some more and the trials began. Job did not do everything exactly right, but that was because he was covering some new ground. In the end of the Book of Job, was he not also perfect in the eyes of God? But, he had new experiences under his belt and new knowledge and God’s judgment of the man then included those things. If he had died immediately after the 1st verse, would he not have been similar to the good thief on the cross?

2. Alive for a few hours and then off to eternal bliss. Whereas us on earth who are kept here for longer, do more for God.....and yet have a risk of going...lukewarm ...and going to hell. If OSAS is not true we should all be joining the army and asking to be in the frontlines.

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When we first meet the Master and repent for the first time, we have in effect asked Him to put us on the front line. We have acknowledged that we are His, even though we really knew little about what that meant. As we learn more about God we need to be growing so as not to stagnate and die. This is why we have the Holy Ghost.


When I joined the U.S. Army in 1963 I was young and foolish and had not really a clue as to what was really going to be required of me. I went through several weeks of basic training to prepare in one sense and then through a special 35 training course to learn my specific job. From there I was sent to Viet Nam for additional on the job training which more critical than the previous training or practice because live depended upon it. I was still very much unprepared. I was NOT on the front line as a combat soldier, but began to understand that this was no game and no one was guaranteed a good place or even natural life at the end of his 12 month tour of duty. We were radio repairmen with no specific combat duties assigned, but still 4 in my company lost their lives in 1965. Two of them I knew personally and their faces are never gone from my mind.

3. This verse is a parallel to the OSAS argument. One good act from a depth of intent covers a multitude of sins. Except in the case of salvation / born again, covers us 100%. Example: Lets say you were bullied your whole life by person X. Person X then takes a bullet for you in the army. Will you tolerate person X in your house despite what he has done / still does? Of course you will.

On earth we will never be perfect Rom 7:15. God will always consider the day we decided to repent sincerely / follow Matt 16:24 / got saved / washed by the blood of Jesus when He looks at us.

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In our flesh [our earth] there is no perfection while we are subservient to that flesh. What then was Job who was called perfect? Do we not have more to work with than Job had? So then why should we be unable to do as much or more than he did?


Things may seem impossible, but did not Jesus promise something that no one since the first man Adam had had in the OT?

4. When Paul preached, he knew who was devout and wh


o was not. As did Jesus. But yet they would never single out those who weren't, by name. They allowed their preaching to do it.

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Paul may have known who was responsible for a particular error, but he did not know who was going to make it with God to the end of his course and who was not. Any one who made or was making sinful mistakes still had the option of repenting until such time as God determined as He had with Esau that there was no room left to repent. Remember God never changes.


Remember that God looks always at the heart of men. Even the prophet Samuel a man of God went through all of David’s brothers believing that one of them was to be God’s anointed King instead of immediately asking to see the youngest son. Why?

So Paul makes statements like '''It is reported that one of you is committing incest 1 Cor 5:1''. 1 Cor 5:11 Not to keep company with any called a brother who do these things''. Do you really believe Paul believed they are brothers? Paul had no doubt that these people were not brothers according to 1 Cor 6:9-13. As did Jesus in Matt 7:18. So we see that Paul and Jesus are not anti OSAS, it is just that we don't grasp their respectful to all style of preaching.

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Brother, I was once backslid for about 10 years. When I had returned to God and some time later began visiting a Christian forum on the Internet, one person in particular told me that it was impossible to backslide for so long. He was certain that I had never known God at all previously.


I, on the other, am certain that I did know God in a measure. I had repented in a measure. I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976 and at the age of 32 for the first time in my life, I began to read the Bible. I know why I back slid in the early 1990’s and I know why when I wanted to return to God in 2002 I doubted that He would accept me back. He did accept me, but He put me through the wringer before smoothing the road a bit again.

Give God the glory!

Hi Amadeus. Forgive me, I am so busy I cannot respond to all right now and I really want to :smile:.

amadeus2 said:

@KingJ
In a sense I agree with you, but...

1. I believe that all of the time that God has given to each of us is our time of trial, unless we are reprobate [one who has sinned an unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost)] and remain after our final condemnation to work as the left hand of God. The number of reprobates is likely few and I cannot say definitely that I have known even one. I wouldn’t recognize one unless God had a reason to show one to me.


2. On the other hand, although each of us completes his course according to his own choices, God who forknew all things knew before we did what our final result was to be: that is whether we would be with Him always or not. So in this sense, yes, a person’s final stop is established, but it is still based on all of the decisions he makes during his allotted time even if his time is not yet ended.


3. Does this seem a contradiction or an impossibility? For us to understand it may be impossible, 4. but what is impossible for God?

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1. I can't accept that. I believe that all living have hope. God still has hope for them. The devil roams looking for whom he can devour. I believe anyone without hope will be / is devoured.
2. God can do all things and foreknow all things, this does not mean He does. It is the same argument I have with Calvinists raising Rom 9 as the beginning and end of all scripture. Rom 9 says God can do whatever He wants, who are we to question Him. But fortunately for us, the rest of scripture tells us that God chooses to be exceedingly good and unbiased. All babies have the potential to be saints.
3. Definitely contradiction. If we were talking about anyone other then God, we would say hypocrite / evil / biased. But because we are talking about God, we don't judge? Makes no sense when He gave us brains to judge. He wants us to judge Him and conclude that He is good. David says ''give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1.
4. Evil? It is impossible for Him to be evil. 1 John 1:5 There is no darkness in Him at all. Foreknowledge of certain events is evil. Plain and simple. God is omniscient and good at the same time. Both truths combined. Not just omniscient.

Can I just jump in, sorry brothers you trying to nut out what it means to be saved.

Amadeus, good points.
king J, I think you are missing something. God is patient and merciful, he sees the end from the beginning but we as humans often don't. When Paul was saying dont keep company with a brother that had fallen in to sin, notice he also said their body or flesh would be given over to satan but he was hoping their soul could be saved. Also Paul did say in Romans that he wept over the Israelites who were stubborn snd stiffnecked and would not listen to the gospel. It was no use preaching to them at the time, but he still held on to hope that they would be saved too.

1000 years to us is but one day to God.

When I came to know Him, I wasnt made instantly perfect! Which is why, I needed to learn. There were lots of things I was set free from, but I still needed to walk and by Gods grace I have time to do it. I have a friend who was saved five days before she died, it was Gods mercy, she didnt have much time. She was in such a sinful lifestyle that God spared her further shame, though she did learn to trust Him in that short space of time. I also think God sees our heart from the time we are born and looks the good works we have done sometimes without even being aware of it, in our alloted lifespan not just after weve heard the gospel. For example, God saw David when he was just a shepherd boy, looking after the sheep, not just when he killed goliath or became King. He was close to David even before he was anointed.

God saw Paul had a zeal for religiousness being a Pharisee but it was a misplaced zeal, which he turned around to the light. Paul even after he was converted had to learn through much suffering.

Actually you are both seem to be saying the same but we all know only God is good I dont think amedeus was saying He wasnt.

In genesis, Jacob had a dream, remember the ladder to Heaven with angels ascending and descending? God showed him this dream and he wasnt even aware of it, he was sleeping. God is with us when we arent even aware of it, its just we dont see those times cos we are focused on ourselves, or, like Jacob, asleep. He loved us while we were yet sinners.

I think sometimes people confused being "good" and righteous and Holy with being "nice". They aren't the same thing at all.

In fact when we are disciplined by God... it isn't always "nice". But it is always good.

Lanolin said:

Hmm can I just add, God does not make mistakes, but humans do.

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Yes indeed. Humans think they are saved when they are not. So the discussion should not be on OSAS vs Arminian. It should be on what it takes / what is evidence of being saved.

Lanolin said:

1. Can I just jump in, sorry brothers you trying to nut out what it means to be saved.


king J, I think you are missing something. God is patient and merciful, 2. he sees the end from the beginning but we as humans often don't. 3. When Paul was saying dont keep company with a brother that had fallen in to sin, notice he also said their body or flesh would be given over to satan but he was hoping their soul could be saved.

4. When I came to know Him, I wasnt made instantly perfect! Which is why, I needed to learn. There were lots of things I was set free from, but I still needed to walk and by Gods grace I have time to do it. I have a friend who was saved five days before she died, it was Gods mercy, she didnt have much time.

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1. Hi Lanolin, not sure why you say this, we are not discussing that.

2. Within reason. If knowing something is evil, He does not know it. Because He is good. Lets not leave the door open to suggesting he is evil....like the devil wants us to. Would you say Snowden was right to expose the US's spying on all policies?

3. All living have hope. He was not saying the guy is saved. He called all brethren. Do you honestly believe he believed 100% in attendance are saved? Paul is referring to the unsaved who have heard the gospel and rejected it. He hopes they change their minds as the truth is on their mind / in their thoughts.

4. Are you proposing that God was / is biased? He gave your friend a short life and you, a long one with much opportunity to fall. I mean lets face it, eternal hell vs eternal heaven is quite a huge contrast....ie quite a seriously humungous suggestion of God's evil bias. Do you all that think like this just really not ''get it''??

KingJ said:

Are you proposing that God was / is biased? He gave your friend a short life and you, a long one with much opportunity to fall. I mean lets face it, eternal hell vs eternal heaven is quite a huge contrast....ie quite a seriously humungous suggestion of God's evil bias. Do you all that think like this just really not ''get it''??

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Giving someone punishment for what they deserve is not "evil". It is righteousness. If a mom punishes her child for lying, stealing, cheating... it isn't evil.
If a judge sends a murderer, thief, rapist to prison.. it isn't evil. Even if he sends him to prison for the rest of his life, it isn't evil. (that's not to say some people
aren't wrongly convicted, but usually in life sentence cases, the evidence is fairly substantial).

It order for there to be perfect light, there has to be perfect darkness, it order for there to be righteousness there has to be wickedness.
In order for there to be perfect love, there has to be perfect hate. You cannot love someone if you don't hate the things that are causing
them pain and destruction, sin, addiction, abuse, and the people that are purposely harming them.

I think anyone who doesn't think God is righteous and Holy doesn't "get it".

KingJ said:

I can't accept that. I believe that all living have hope. God still has hope for them. The devil roams looking for whom he can devour. I believe anyone without hope will be / is devoured.

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I am not much on arguing against believers, my friend. As far as I definitely know, every person still walking around still has hope, but one who is definitely reprobate as I see is has no hope.

The reprobate did have hope but used up his last opportunity as most of the children of Israel used up their last opportunity to enter the Promised Land when they rebelled one time too many against God.
["Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; " Num 14:22]


The question, of course, is how many times does God allow a person? God alone knows that answer to that question for each one born with hope. Peter asked if he should forgive an offender 7 times and Jesus answered rather 7 times 70. I know that I have offended God more than 490 times, so the answer is probably not so clear cut in black and white as 490, is it?

2. God can do all things and foreknow all things, this does not mean He does. It is the same argument I have with Calvinists raising Rom 9 as the beginning and end of all scripture. Rom 9 says God can do whatever He wants, who are we to question Him. But fortunately for us, the rest of scripture tells us that God chooses to be exceedingly good and unbiased. All babies have the potential to be saints.

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God is all powerful, but He cannot go back on His own Word. If He gave men the dominion over themselves as I believe that He for the course of time allotted to each man then that man can go against God until he runs out of time. The man doesn't know how much time he has. God does. So each of us had best be careful when we knowingly sin against Him.

3.

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Definitely contradiction. If we were talking about anyone other then God, we would say hypocrite / evil / biased. But because we are talking about God, we don't judge? Makes no sense when He gave us brains to judge. He wants us to judge Him and conclude that He is good. David says ''give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1.

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Yes, conclude that God that is good, but who understands what "good" is? Consider the answer of Jesus here:

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

"None else good" so any one who really is good at all is either God or has a measure of God in him. How well do we know God? How well do we understand what good is? Remember this verse?

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

Good is how He made it so He must have put a bit of Himself in it, or...?

Man took advantage of the dominion he had over himself to disobey God. When he did that something lost a measure God, or...?

God knew man would do this, but salvation through Jesus was already in the plan to allow man to once again become like God: good!

4. Evil? It is impossible for Him to be evil. 1 John 1:5 There is no darkness in Him at all. Foreknowledge of certain events is evil. Plain and simple. God is omniscient and good at the same time. Both truths combined. Not just omniscient.

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No argument. No comment at the moment.

amadeus2 said:

I am not much on arguing against believers, my friend. As far as I definitely know, every person still walking around still has hope, but one who is definitely reprobate as I see is has no hope.

The reprobate did have hope but used up his last opportunity as most of the children of Israel used up their last opportunity to enter the Promised Land when they rebelled one time too many against God.
["Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; " Num 14:22]

The question, of course, is how many times does God allow a person? God alone knows that answer to that question for each one born with hope. Peter asked if he should forgive an offender 7 times and Jesus answered rather 7 times 70. I know that I have offended God more than 490 times, so the answer is probably not so clear cut in black and white as 490, is it?

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I don't believe it is hard to grasp when one's time is up / running out. The Jews defied God directly. They saw great miracles, they heard God through Moses, they were fed mana from heaven daily. Any act of rebellion was darkness vs light. A lot like Adam and Eve. The general population of unsaved however do not always sin in direct defiance of God. The same is to be said in their acceptance of God. They 'kind of' do evil and 'kind of' accept Jesus. People die / go to hell / meet God's wrath when their sin is full measure. As discussed before on another thread. This is a theme throughout scripture. Example in Gen 15:16.

We are digressing though. To get back on topic, can you show me one verse from Paul or Jesus where they 'prior to rejection' refused to preach the gospel to someone?

amadeus2 said:

God is all powerful, but He cannot go back on His own Word. If He gave men the dominion over themselves as I believe that He for the course of time allotted to each man then that man can go against God until he runs out of time. The man doesn't know how much time he has. God does. So each of us had best be careful when we knowingly sin against Him.

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I agree with this but it is not answering the issue. I like your first two sentences. He is all powerful, but He cannot go back on His word...that says He is good.

My wife has a diary in her room. I can read it. I have access to our room and our closet where she stores her items. But do I? Just because God can know something does not mean He does. He is limited by who He is on all matters. He is love. He is good.

amadeus2 said:

Yes, conclude that God that is good, but who understands what "good" is? Consider the answer of Jesus here:

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

"None else good" so any one who really is good at all is either God or has a measure of God in him. How well do we know God? How well do we understand what good is? Remember this verse?

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

Good is how He made it so He must have put a bit of Himself in it, or...?

Man took advantage of the dominion he had over himself to disobey God. When he did that something lost a measure God, or...?

God knew man would do this, but salvation through Jesus was already in the plan to allow man to once again become like God: good!

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This is simply not true. The context of Jesus saying only God is good, is exactly that. Only God is good. Not that we fail at grasping what is good. Eph 3:18 is crystal clear that God wants us / created us with the ability to grasp goodness / love. We discussed 1 Cor 6 on another thread too. How we will judge angels and the world. How we are hence definitely able to judge matters on earth. Paul says this believing we don't fully grasp what is good? Jesus sums up what is good / greatest act of love in John 15:13. We can't grasp this? Or, this is not God's idea of good? He says this to us and believes differently?

We can grasp what is good. The truth is that ''God's good'' completely exceeds our good or idea of good. Not that His idea of good encompasses what we would all refer to as evil.

B-A-C said:

1. Giving someone punishment for what they deserve is not "evil". 2. It is righteousness. If a mom punishes her child for lying, stealing, cheating... it isn't evil.
If a judge sends a murderer, thief, rapist to prison.. it isn't evil. Even if he sends him to prison for the rest of his life, it isn't evil. (that's not to say some people
aren't wrongly convicted, but usually in life sentence cases, the evidence is fairly substantial).

3. It order for there to be perfect light, there has to be perfect darkness, it order for there to be righteousness there has to be wickedness.
In order for there to be perfect love, there has to be perfect hate. You cannot love someone if you don't hate the things that are causing
them pain and destruction, sin, addiction, abuse, and the people that are purposely harming them.

4. I think anyone who doesn't think God is righteous and Holy doesn't "get it".

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Not sure why you stating us deserving hell = righteousness, in response to me saying God is unfair on all those He uses down here for longer. Considering we run the risk of going to eternal hell.

1. Agreed. Each will be rewarded according to what they have done Rom 2:6.
2. Eternal damnation cannot be compared to our death penalty or 25 year prison sentence, heck even 100 life sentences. Not a single person on this planet, including you believes that. Yet you state it because you assume you are in some way defending God and scripture. Your motivation is good, but God does not need nor want nonsensical defense. Isaiah 1:18 Come now and let us reason together.
3. No. That just sounds right. There are scales for those in heaven and those in hell as Rom 2:6 and many other verses clearly state it. Amadeus quoted Mark 10:18 ''Only God is good''. Add to this 1 Pet 4:18 the righteous are barely saved. Does that sound like night and day? There will be many righteous that ''just / by the skin of their teeth'' make it into heaven.

God draws a fine line as only He can. He knows that someones heart and mind is just over the threshold of loving what is evil vs hating it and vice versa. It is definitely not night and day. Also think further on Mark 10:18. If only God is good, are the angels in heaven good? Of course not. Are we ever good? Of course not. We never lose free will.

4. God does not expect us to teach that His righteousness and holiness equates to acts that we would all agree are evil. He wants us to grasp all matters in which He was / is / will be involved in, in light of who He is 1 John 4:8.

KingJ said:

I don't believe it is hard to grasp when one's time is up / running out. The Jews defied God directly. They saw great miracles, they heard God through Moses, they were fed mana from heaven daily. Any act of rebellion was darkness vs light. A lot like Adam and Eve. The general population of unsaved however do not always sin in direct defiance of God. The same is to be said in their acceptance of God. They 'kind of' do evil and 'kind of' accept Jesus. People die / go to hell / meet God's wrath when their sin is full measure. As discussed before on another thread. This is a theme throughout scripture. Example in Gen 15:16.

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For me the general population of unsaved are effectively dead in the eyes of God. The time they are given according to what they have been given in all respects is time to change in something that is not dead.

We are digressing though. To get back on topic, can you show me one verse from Paul or Jesus where they 'prior to rejection' refused to preach the gospel to someone?

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Sorry, I cannot oblige. I gave my belief which is from my own understanding of the entire Bible rather than the specific writings of the 4 gospels and of Paul alone. I did use the phrase "as I see it". You don't have to agree with me. Only God gives the increase. Neither you nor I qualify.

For me a reprobate is a person who has done the unforgivable. I cannot say for sure that I know anyone like that... but that does not meant that there are none.

Why would scripture need to have a written example from either Jesus or Paul that they refused to communicate the truth to certain persons [reprobates]? You needn't answer the question. I am only explaining. As I already stated, "Only God gives the increase". Sometimes He may do so through you or me.

I agree with this but it is not answering the issue. I like your first two sentences. He is all powerful, but He cannot go back on His word...that says He is good.

My wife has a diary in her room. I can read it. I have access to our room and our closet where she stores her items. But do I? Just because God can know something does not mean He does. He is limited by who He is on all matters. He is love. He is good.

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I'll not argue the point. What would be the point? God is what He is. The correct question might be, who understands all about God? I certainly do not.

This is simply not true. The context of Jesus saying only God is good, is exactly that. Only God is good. Not that we fail at grasping what is good. Eph 3:18 is crystal clear that God wants us / created us with the ability to grasp goodness / love. We discussed 1 Cor 6 on another thread too. How we will judge angels and the world. How we are hence definitely able to judge matters on earth. Paul says this believing we don't fully grasp what is good? Jesus sums up what is good / greatest act of love in John 15:13. We can't grasp this? Or, this is not God's idea of good? He says this to us and believes differently?

We can grasp what is good. The truth is that ''God's good'' completely exceeds our good or idea of good. Not that His idea of good encompasses what we would all refer to as evil.

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You made up your mind on these points, so what I believe isn't needed here for your sake.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

amadeus2 said:

For me the general population of unsaved are effectively dead in the eyes of God. The time they are given according to what they have been given in all respects is time to change in something that is not dead.



Sorry, I cannot oblige. I gave my belief which is from my own understanding of the entire Bible rather than the specific writings of the 4 gospels and of Paul alone. I did use the phrase "as I see it". You don't have to agree with me. Only God gives the increase. Neither you nor I qualify.

For me a reprobate is a person who has done the unforgivable. I cannot say for sure that I know anyone like that... but that does not meant that there are none.

Why would scripture need to have a written example from either Jesus or Paul that they refused to communicate the truth to certain persons [reprobates]? You needn't answer the question. I am only explaining. As I already stated, "Only God gives the increase". Sometimes He may do so through you or me.



I'll not argue the point. What would be the point? God is what He is. The correct question might be, who understands all about God? I certainly do not.


You made up your mind on these points, so what I believe isn't needed here for your sake.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

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Good replies Amadeus. I can agree with all you have said. Sorry If I come across too confrontational. You know how it is with the younger generation :wink:.

The thing is.. we are all born dead. That's why we have to be born again. (do innocent babies go to heaven is another topic).
Without Jesus, there is no paradise, no heaven in the after-life. Some people think it's all about us and what we "deserve" and
what we are entitled to. We aren't entitled to anything. The only thing we deserve is death. If you've ever sinned, you deserve death. (Rom 6:23; )
Jesus is the only person I know that never sinned.

Grace - χάρις
charis
khar'-ece

Grace - unmerited favor, an undeserved gift, receiving something that benefits you.

The reason it's grace is because we don't deserve it. We can't do anything to deserve it. It's a gift from God. Some people think God sends people
to hell. But no, God gives us free will and many people simply choose to go to hell. One of the problems with Calvinism and pre-destination is
that if anyone goes to hell, it's because God chose to send them there. The Bible says it's God's wish that none perish and all be saved.

The question isn't why does God send anyone to hell, the question is, why do people choose to go there?

Does God reject people? Well in Calvinism and pre-destination He must.

I believe God gives everyone a choice. It's up to you. You choose Jesus, or you don't. It's that simple. Having said that, there does appear
to be a "window" of salvation. This is controversial and not everyone agrees. But this is what I see in scripture.

For example, Pharaoh hardened his own heart seven times. Exod 7:13; Exod 7:22; Exod 8:15; Exod 8:19; Exod 8:32; and Exod 9:7; .
Finally God hardens Pharaoh's heart. Exod 9:12; Exod 10:20; Exod 10:27; Exod 14:8; but it wasn't until God gave Pharaoh many chances
to let the Jews go.

Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Heb 12:16; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17; For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

If you give up inheritance God offers you through the death of His only Son, there is no guarantee you can get it back again.

Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'

The door is only open for a little while, you better be ready when God opens the door.

Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

God gives us a window to bear fruit, He even helps us do so. (we can't do it on our own, but we are capable of NOT bearing fruit if we so choose).
But after that window of time is over, the tree can be cut down.

Rom 1:23; and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

If you keep hardening your heart toward God, He will eventually give you what you want. The window eventually closes on some people.

Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Matt 24:45; "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

When the window opens, we need to be ready.

The Spirit of the Lord departed Saul and God gave him an evil spirit. ( 1 Sam 16:14-16; 1 Sam 18:10; 1 Sam 19:9; ) But this only after God rejects him from being king over Israel ( 1 Sam 16:1; )
and that was only after Saul refused to do what God told him to do. ( 1 Sam 15:9-11; )

God even tells Samuel.. why do you mourn over someone I have rejected. After a period of time, we just need to move on.

After a while, we need to just shake the dust off of our feet. ( Matt 10:14; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5; )
if God opens another opportunity for them, that's great. But there aren't any guarantees there will be another window of opportunity.