rag4aCrown said:

Sigh...yes, expose them...be Christ like.

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No me darlin! Expose the teaching.....The best way to do that is to teach the real thing....Just like the banks teach their people to recognize counterfeit money is to have them handling the real thing....Know what the Word says and you will know the false teachings. But you have to do it with the Word..Always the Word...not gossip...not ugly talk Only the Word

Balance is the key to understanding "prosperity". We have the same type of division in the Church in other ares as well. For example in the area of "healing"

1 Error, and extreme = "Healing has been done away with. The day of miracles is past."

2 The truth = "God does heal today, but natural means of help are appropriate and acceptable also."

3 Error, and extreme = "Divine healing is the only legitimate way to go. Using doctors or medicine is a sin."


Error, and truth about prosperity.

1 Error, and extreme = (a) Money is an evil that all Christians should avoid. (b) God wants His children to be poor. (c) Preachers should never talk about money.

2 The Truth = (a) "God wants to bless and prosper His children." (b) "We are to seek first the Kingdom of God as opposed to being materialistically oriented. "(c) "Preachers should teach the truth of God's Word about money, but they shouldn't be self-serving."

3 Error, and extreme = (a) "Getting rich is the main focus of faith." (b) "God's main interest is your material well being." (c) "Material gain shows godliness."

Bendito said:

Ephesians 5:11 (CJB)

11 Have nothing to do with the deeds produced by darkness, but instead expose them,


It does NOT say we are to bad mouth other Christians....It says to expose the WORKS of darkness...

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I've highlighted the part that shows that you as well as others here are on the same page.
The problem brother is that when you expose them. It is perceived as if you are "bad mouthing" them. I do realize that there are some who do criticize, condemn not for edification but for self-gratification/righteousness. The difficulty is that they say they are "Christians" but still have difficulty or cringe at the thought of questioning their leadership on scripture. So to many what is done to inform, bring to them the light, by one is seen as judgmental by another.

I'm know you've had that difficulty as well brother. That is, being misunderstood for the words you have plainly spoken, see clearly, simply with Holy Spirit understanding. That is why our communications must be done with love as the binding element to the words we bring to the light of day when fault is seen in others words/actions. Also, realizing that when we communicate with Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus that they too may require practice in this writing in "Love".

With the love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
Nick
<><

The father of the "prosperity" message, and of faith of our time was "Kenneth E Hagin". He never thought for a minute that people would take that message of prosperity, and take it to the "extreme" to were that was all they talked about. This troubled brother Hagin for many years, until near the end of his life he invited all of the big name preachers of the prosperity message to come to a special convention he set up, and they were the only ones allowed to come. Most of them came, but not all. Kenneth wrote a book that was given to all who came. The book is called "the Midas Touch". It is a book about what true prosperity is from the scriptures. After all you can not just rebuke someone for teaching something to extreme without showing them in the scriptures were they had gone off the road of truth into the ditch on the side of the road!! .As it is written

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

This book can be purchased online, and it is a great reference to what true prosperity really is. Sound teaching is the only way to get someone out of the ditch back into the middle of road where truth is found. Most prosperity preachers who went to this convention learned the error of their ways, but not all as some of them went right back to preaching the same things after brother Hagin had passed away not to long afterwards.

I think we can all agree that the OP is a bit harsh and makes many assumptions. A truth I get from it though is that when a church stands for a core evil, all lessor evils are more then possible.

I am not sure what is happening in the US, but here in my hometown in South Africa the most popular prosperity and faith church has been toning its prosperity message down quite a bit. The lead pastor must have learnt a lesson. Forty five minute sessions on tithing and blessings have been reduced to fifteen minutes. They have also put a sign up that says something like 'we have many faults, but we are trying our best and do love Jesus'.

If you are bragging about being a billionaire to your congregation you might me a prosperity gospel preacher??

Bendito said:

Interesting use of the last scripture you put here...It would also apply to those trying to clean up the outside of folks but ignoring the inside....It applies to those who have sins of their own to deal with, who try to deal with the perceived sins of others....

Before you pass judgment on other Christians do some searching of the Word to see what God says about that..

John 8:7 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

You may think that I am angry about this hypocrisy....That's only because I am. It makes me want to puke.

Amadeus There is NO scripture that says we can badmouth others...NONE

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Was I disagreeing with you amigo y hermano, Bendito? ¡Creo que no! What I was simply saying is that it is not wrong to use the words God gives us for the purpose He gives them to us at the time He says to use them.

Even a scriptural quotation when applied without proper authority may be wrong. We need to hear God's voice each time before we go ahead. If we do not hear Him, then wouldn't it be better to remain silent?

To simply say that because Jesus rebuked people we may also at times rebuke people is a generalization which will not always be correct.

So in the actual instance in which we decide to speak we better have consulted with God on it before we open our mouths. There is a time to speak [God told us to speak] and a time to remain silent [God told us to remain silent]. [see Ecc 3:1-8]

We should all look at the unnamed prophet of God sent out of Judah into Israel (Samaria) to prophesy [I Kings 13]. He did prophesy and his prophecy with regarding to the not yet born King Josiah came true. In spite of this, before leaving to return to his home, the prophet failed to consult God before acting and as a result was killed by a lion. He never made it home. He was a true prophet of God, but he also failed to stay in touch with God all of the time and suffered the consequences. Are we better than that prophet?

amadeus2 said:

Was I disagreeing with you amigo y hermano, Bendito? ¡Creo que no! What I was simply saying is that it is not wrong to use the words God gives us for the purpose He gives them to us at the time He says to use them.

Even a scriptural quotation when applied without proper authority may be wrong. We need to hear God's voice each time before we go ahead. If we do not hear Him, then wouldn't it be better to remain silent?

To simply say that because Jesus rebuked people we may also at times rebuke people is a generalization which will not always be correct.

So in the actual instance in which we decide to speak we better have consulted with God on it before we open our mouths. There is a time to speak [God told us to speak] and a time to remain silent [God told us to remain silent]. [see Ecc 3:1-8]

We should all look at the unnamed prophet of God sent out of Judah into Israel (Samaria) to prophesy [I Kings 13]. He did prophesy and his prophecy with regarding to the not yet born King Josiah came true. In spite of this, before leaving to return to his home, the prophet failed to consult God before acting and as a result was killed by a lion. He never made it home. He was a true prophet of God, but he also failed to stay in touch with God all of the time and suffered the consequences. Are we better than that prophet?

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LOL Me encuentro a veces sus mensajes ambiguos ... I sometimes find your posts ambiguous ... I'm sorry if I misunderstood you

Many many Christians form an opinion then find a single verse to back it up...I call that spiritual stupidity...what we should be doing is spending time in the Word/ with the Word, when He shows us something, its kind of like....Hmmm That's interesting....What else does the bible say about that? And let the Holy Spirit (the Word) guide your learning....I call that spiritual maturity...
Which one are you guilty of? :smile:

great video from two men of God, that live what they preach

If the preacher claims that Jesus and his apostles were wealthy in any earthly materialistic way you have a preacher that is false and a liar and is a prosperity gospel preacher.

Dave M said:

If the preacher claims that Jesus and his apostles were wealthy in any earthly materialistic way you have a preacher that is false and a liar and is a prosperity gospel preacher.

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You need to back that up with scripture or fact or I'll have to assume you are wrong

Bendito said:

LOL Me encuentro a veces sus mensajes ambiguos ... I sometimes find your posts ambiguous ... I'm sorry if I misunderstood you

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Lo siento mucho. I am sorry if you sometimes misunderstand.

Tengo el mismo problema de vez en cuando con las palabras de otras personas aquí. May God help us all to speak and understand His language which in the end of the matter is the one that counts. I am not really wanting to ride in between or on anything not clear [ambiguous]. I am really striving to ride with God.

I believe that two people can disagree on specifics and be brothers in the Lord and therefore pleasing nonetheless to God because they have charity one toward the other. If we all approach one another in this manner, eventually God will iron out any differences that need to be ironed out.

Not that I saying that we disagree, for I did not see that at all.

Give God the glory

amadeus2 said:

Lo siento mucho. I am sorry if you sometimes misunderstand.

Tengo el mismo problema de vez en cuando con las palabras de otras personas aquí. May God help us all to speak and understand His language which in the end of the matter is the one that counts. I am not really wanting to ride in between or on anything not clear [ambiguous]. I am really striving to ride with God.

I believe that two people can disagree on specifics and be brothers in the Lord and therefore pleasing nonetheless to God because they have charity one toward the other. If we all approach one another in this manner, eventually God will iron out any differences that need to be ironed out.

Not that I saying that we disagree, for I did not see that at all.

Give God the glory

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LOL I love talking with you brother

If the preacher claims that Jesus and his apostles were wealthy in any earthly materialistic way you have a preacher that is false and a liar and is a prosperity gospel preacher.

Bendito said
You need to back that up with scripture or fact or I'll have to assume you are wrong

So just to be clear, you are agreeing with the prosperity teachers that Jesus and his apostles were earthly wealthy???

Dave M said:

If the preacher claims that Jesus and his apostles were wealthy in any earthly materialistic way you have a preacher that is false and a liar and is a prosperity gospel preacher.

Bendito said
You need to back that up with scripture or fact or I'll have to assume you are wrong

So just to be clear, you are agreeing with the prosperity teachers that Jesus and his apostles were earthly wealthy???

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I agree based on what I read in the Word...Do you want to argue with the Word? You built an entire doctrine based on one scripture Well maybe two....

Bendito I do not even understand what you said.

Please answer the question do you believe Jesus and his disciples were wealthy in wordy material terms this is a yes or no answer.

Dave M said:

Bendito I do not even understand what you said.

Please answer the question do you believe Jesus and his disciples were wealthy in wordy material terms this is a yes or no answer.

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I believe I just said that I believe that Jesus was rich...Now you sound angry....are you?

perhaps a tad thanks for asking, we should discuss in love and respect, when I see a brother in Christ being taught false gospel and believing it yes it pisses me off, I love you brother and would Love for God to use me as a instrument to open your eyes against these demons that preach the prosperity Gospel, and if we can pinpoint one lie at a time perhaps eyes can be open,

Jesus and his disciples were poor in worldly terms, yes they were rich in spirituality. Anybody who teaches they were worldly wealthy are liars and deceivers of men.

Dave M said:

perhaps a tad thanks for asking, we should discuss in love and respect, when I see a brother in Christ being taught false gospel and believing it yes it pisses me off, I love you brother and would Love for God to use me as a instrument to open your eyes against these demons that preach the prosperity Gospel, and if we can pinpoint one lie at a time perhaps eyes can be open,

Jesus and his disciples were poor in worldly terms, yes they were rich in spirituality. Anybody who teaches they were worldly wealthy are liars and deceivers of men.

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LOL Well Better pissed off than ....Too crude a way of talking...Enough of that.... Ok...History says that when Kings traveled in those days there were more than three unprotected kings sitting on camels...(You need to do a bit of research to see how they traveled in those days) Because of thieves and brigands (I love that word) they traveled in caravans..convoys if you will...protected by soldiers who totaled a small army. When bringing gifts to a new king, especially a king to whom they intended to worship, to swear allegiance to, they were not chintzy about the giving... The gold was not just a couple coins....but great chests of gold...(historically accurate). The Frankincense and myrrh the same..Chests the size of coffins..full.....Now imagine forty kings coming to swear allegiance and the amounts of treasure they brought...
Dave these visitors were Kings...not of the Burger King variety but kings of lands and peoples...Kings with the riches to bestow as gifts.... ETC.... LOL
No my friend...I'm not deceived....been there done that... Now I research EVERYTHING a preacher throws at me before I'll accept it. I'm not a trusting person to begin with....


It seems to me that you have believed a thing without checking it out fully.

1 Kings 10 discribes a visit from the queen of Sheba to King Solomon...She just visited him, not to swear allegiance but simply a visit..Look at the treasures she brought.....It was customary to give treasures to kings in those days. When Jesus was born king He was also given treasures