Waggles said:

Not from what I read - it is a commandment

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Like I said, not involved with the process of salvation....but a result of salvation , yes!

Waggles said:

if you go on refusing to obey a commandment, then where does that leave you in your standing

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Like I said, not a Christian at all!

Waggles said:

Grace comes afterward. First comes believing. Then obedience. Then grace is a reward for those who come to accept and believe the gospel of salvation

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Sorry, I don't believe so....God came first...grace abounds first.....believing comes from faith which is a gift of God!

Waggles said:

Grace comes afterward. First comes believing. Then obedience. Then grace is a reward for those who come to accept and believe the gospel of salvation.
The blood of Jesus washes us clean and renews us day by day. We are expected to walk in the Spirit and bear fruit of the Spirit.
Grace is dispensed to us because as mere mortals we are not yet perfect and without sin.
In the OT there was always severe punishment for transgression of the Law, but in the NT we come under grace [through the Holy Spirit] and we
are not taken out the back and stoned to death for our transgressions.

We are not saved by grace, we are saved by believing in and living the gospel.
Romans 8: KJV
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 10:17 KJV
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I believed without seeing, and behold I see; I believed without hearing and behold I hear.

I believe it was indeed the grace of God that did appear the day he lifted me up off the floor and I lay my 38 down.
The devil wanted me to pull the trigger, But God's grace did abound. Amen.
I had an inner knowing that taking my life was/is wrong; I am saved by the grace of God. He showed me mercy, compassion and love; He felt my heart CRYING OUT Abba Father, and He introduced Himself there, and I made a choice to serve Him. Not that I could do any of this on my own, but the predestination of God's Spirit crying out within the believer to be born again.
The Spirit is always seeking and crying out for the Father, it wants to return to Him who gave it.

My water immersion was just that; a man dunked my head. I made a constant effort to seek Him and a spiritual, supernatural baptism took place. I was soaked to the bone in a white rain that fell underneath a large tent; in the Spirit I was dripping wet, (even my clothes), but in the physical I was bone dry. He has a baptism to be baptized with, it is written, and many will not receive it because they have never forsaken self. Many are called, but few are chosen. Many will find the broad and wide path that leads to death and destruction, few will find the straight and barrow that leads to eternal everlasting life.

You see the outside appears exactly the same, I look like the same peasant thug I always have; my physical appearance looks exactly the same, but what is inside has been washed clean as fresh fallen snow. My heart of stone was replaced and I was given a heart of flesh that has compassion and bares another's burden, rather then walk on by.

Yes, grace is always present, even when I fall short. Praise God, only because He is in me, does God consider this peasant.

I look like a peasant, but the fire within is hot and does divide good fruit out of the spoils.

Seek HIM, as though your life depends on it; because it does. Amen.

All praise glory and honor be unto God Amen

Waggles said:

@Robert Lindstrom
You do not know what you are writing about.
These verses are about the gifts distributed individually within the Church (and particularly for the functioning of the Church).
Each Spirit-filled saint has access to these gifts as needed for both themselves and for within the good functioning of the Church.
A pastor with wisdom and knowledge is beneficial. But these gifts are not limited to just pastors and elders. Even new converts can be blessed with such if
they desire and pray for this. Everybody gets the gift of faith when they receive the Spirit, but all need to be strengthened and increased in faith from time-to-time,
particularly during tribulation. The Spirit gives gifts on a need by need basis, but also distributed throughout the Church so that all the different members can access
and use these gifts to edify and encourage each other.

KJV diverse kinds of tongues

Many who quote this do so out of context and without understanding.
1Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,
but for them which believe.
1Corinthians 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.

This is where the verses that you quoted from 1Corinthians 12 become applicable to the proper conduct of a Pentecostal Church meeting.
One person will speak in tongues. Another will speak an interpretation. To a maximum of three times only. All done decently and in order.
Then up to a maximum of three who will prophesy.

So in the Church, no not all speak in tongues, and no not all interpret, etc.
But the verse is "to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
Again this truly only makes sense to those where ALL speak in tongues; for we all know that in a proper Church meeting when those who exercise the voice
gift of tongues that this speaking is quite different in style and delivery to their normal everyday prayer tongue.

1Corinthians 14:39-40
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Let all things be done decently and in order.

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We both agree that 1 Cor 13:8 states that speaking in tongues will cease but when that is or was is in dispute. Commentaries say that the word used translated into "ceased" means forever and never will begin again. This verse says prophesies and knowledge will "pass away" and tongues "will cease". Why the difference? Commentaries say that the "pass away" is a passive voice and will end with the coming of the perfect. "Will cease" is a middle voice and will end prior to the perfect coming. (English does not have middle voice verbs). So when did this happen, or has it?

The gift of tongues was a miraculous gift, the last recorded miracle in the NT was around 60 AD. Acts 28:7-10. No miracle was recorded from 60 AD to the time John finished Revelation in 98 AD or so. Speaking in tongues are not talked about after 1 Corinthians was written. 1 Corinthians was an early epistle. Later epistles such as Ephesians and Romans talk about the gifts of the spirit but tongues are never mentioned. Hebrews 2:3-4 indicates that miracles were to confirm the apostolic authority and was no longer needed once the scripture was written.

Also, tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel (Is 28:11-12 and 1 Cor 14:21-22) not a sign of salvation fro Christians.

Again, Paul penned 12 epistles after 1 Cor and never wrote about tongues, Peter, James, John or Jude never mentioned tongues either. Chrysostom and Augustine considered tongues obsolete in 4 AD. No where in the first 1700 years of the church are tongues recorded speaking in tongues that were not heretics of the gospel.

1 Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

So are we saying all prophecy, all tongues, and all knowledge are done away with?
The prophecy of the end times, rapture, second coming millennial reign of Jesus are done away with?
The knowledge that we currently have doesn't really exist, it has been done away with?

Or, are we sawing this verse into two halves? Tongues is done away with, but not the other stuff?
How do we get to pick which parts of the Bible still apply, and which parts don't?

B-A-C said:

1 Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

So are we saying all prophecy, all tongues, and all knowledge are done away with?
The prophecy of the end times, rapture, second coming millennial reign of Jesus are done away with?
The knowledge that we currently have doesn't really exist, it has been done away with?

Or, are we sawing this verse into two halves? Tongues is done away with, but not the other stuff?
How do we get to pick which parts of the Bible still apply, and which parts don't?

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For me, this is saying that all this passes away when we die our physical death and come spiritually before God "Face to Face"! Then we will know all things as well as he knows us!

Vincent said:

Again, Paul penned 12 epistles after 1 Cor and never wrote about tongues, Peter, James, John or Jude never mentioned tongues either. Chrysostom and Augustine considered tongues obsolete in 4 AD. No where in the first 1700 years of the church are tongues recorded speaking in tongues that were not heretics of the gospel.

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What complete doctrinal rubbish. And you do not know your history of Christianity at all.
Martin Luther and other Reformation leaders were Spirit-filled and did pray in tongues. The so-called "primitive" Methodists, Wesley and his generation,
were again all Spirit-filled and prayed in tongues. William Booth and others who founded the Salvation Army again being Spirit-filled prayed in tongues.
The Quakers originally practiced 1Corinthians 14 and all prayed in tongues.
Many mainstream Protestant Churches began initially with Holy Spirit Revival and their founders prayed in tongues. [not the Anglicans though]
Ever since the Reformation there has been Holy Spirit revival with the correct Bible evidence of speaking or praying in tongues.
The Pentecostal Holiness movement of the 1880s was born out of the Divine Healing preaching and also preached that the gifts and baptisms of the
first century Church were still available for believers.
Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake [and the first decades of the Assemblies of God] all spoke in tongues.
Pentecostal congregations subscribing to the Full Gospel of Salvation, or some call it the Apostolic Gospel, today enjoy these signs shall follow them that believe.
Pentecost Churches today water baptize people by full immersion, and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit.
Converts know when they have received the indwelling Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues [praying in the Spirit] just as Jesus declared that they shall.

Vincent said:

Peter, James, John or Jude never mentioned tongues either.

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James 3: why God gives us a new spiritual language for prayer to Him...
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature;
and it is set on fire of hell.
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1Corinthians 14:
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

@Robert Lindstrom @B-A-C @Bendito @Born Again 2004 @rag4aCrown @Vincent

Grace - Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favour of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from him.
And if by grace, then it is no more of works. Romans 11.
> Favourable influence of God; divine influence or the influence of the Spirit, in renewing the heart and restraining from sin.
> The application of Christ's righteousness to the sinner.
> A state of reconciliation to God. (Romans 5:2)
> Favour; mercy; pardon, forgiveness...
Grace is made available to believers of the gospel who embrace its commandments and teachings.
Thus we are come under the dispensation of grace through the gospel and are not under the OT Law and regulations.

Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first,
and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 15:
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles
might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1Corinthians 9:
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me,
if I preach not the gospel.

First comes hearing the gospel, then believing, then grace by becoming a disciple - it has always been about obedience.
Read what Jesus himself states - his own words to us as disciples and believers...
Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

What is it that people are to believe in? The gospel of grace given through baptism of water and the Holy Spirit.

@Robert Lindstrom @B-A-C @Bendito @Born Again 2004 @rag4aCrown @Vincent

Works - yes we are not saved by our works. We do need to be reconciled to God through Jesus and the gospel. No argument there.
I think we all agree that you cannot earn your salvation by simply being a good citizen, and getting a plaque on a church pew.

BUT that is not the end of the story. It is written in Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

What then? Works are the fundamental expression of our commitment to living the gospel; loving and serving our Lord; loving and serving our
brothers and sisters; being a testimony to our unbelieving neighbours and others...

James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Obedience to the scriptures/gospel. Repentance. Baptism. Taking Holy Communion. Praying. Doing good to others. Upholding righteousness. Bible study.
Godly fellowship . Church meetings. Singing hymns and choruses. Tithing. etc. etc. etc.
We respond to believing and living the gospel by complying to those actions that are either directly commanded that we must do,
and also to those taught directly by the Apostles.

Ephesians 5:
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Waggles said:

BUT that is not the end of the story. It is written in Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

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Yes we have great zeal to please the Lord. I find that I have zeal for and end up doing things not to please myself but to please something inside me that is more than the old self. Without him in me, I can do nothing, especially not what pleases him. I don't do this perfectly and when I don't, I am reminded that there is no condemnation for me! It is not how I feel as much as what he has assured me of!

Waggles said:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

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Yes, I am saved by Grace through faith; this is a gift of God and, if it is a gift, it is free. It is not by my works or I could boast. So, I am reminded that I can't boast but still works are required to prove my salvation. I can't explain it exactly but I know I can boast in him...it is his works manifested in me....without him in me, I can do nothing!

Waggles said:

What complete doctrinal rubbish. And you do not know your history of Christianity at all.

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So instead of showing me my error with scripture you choose to just say I am wrong without any explanation? Why not address my "errors"?

Martin Luther and other Reformation leaders were Spirit-filled and did pray in tongues.

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This is an assertion, do you have proof of this? Here is what Luther said on the subject:

‘Whoever comes forward, and wants to read, teach, or preach, and yet speaks with tongues, that is, speaks Latin instead of German, or some unknown language, he is to be silent and preach to himself alone. For no one can hear it or understand it, and no one can get any benefit from it. Or if he should speak with tongues, he ought, in addition, to put what he says into German, or interpret it in one way or another, so that the congregation may understand it.’

The so-called "primitive" Methodists, Wesley and his generation,
were again all Spirit-filled and prayed in tongues.

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Wesley believed that tongues were available to some but not as a confirmation of regeneration. Can you find any record of Wesley speaking in tongues? Again this is an assertion and you offer no proof.

William Booth and others who founded the Salvation Army again being Spirit-filled prayed in tongues.

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Can you substantiate this claim? William Booth did not believe Jesus actually paid our debt to God for our sins. See the doctrines of the Salvation Army and a sermon William Booth preached "The atonement of Jesus Christ" (1922) - Why should I believe a heretic?

The Quakers originally practiced 1Corinthians 14 and all prayed in tongues.

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John Wesley considered the Quakers heretics. Quakers believed justification by works, they did not practice baptism and the Lords Supper, the Bible is subordinate to revelation from the Holy Spirit, etc. Again heretical teachings.

Many mainstream Protestant Churches began initially with Holy Spirit Revival and their founders prayed in tongues. [not the Anglicans though].

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Which ones? Who?

Ever since the Reformation there has been Holy Spirit revival with the correct Bible evidence of speaking or praying in tongues.

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Sources?

The Pentecostal Holiness movement of the 1880s was born out of the Divine Healing preaching and also preached that the gifts and baptisms of the
first century Church were still available for believers.

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Is this the movement where they taught we could live a sin free life? (1 Jn 1:8).

Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake [and the first decades of the Assemblies of God] all spoke in tongues.

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Wigglesworth believed you can only commune with god if you became Holy first, Gave many prophesies "in the spirir" that never came true a biblical sign of a false prophet. He believed healing was guaranteed as a product of the atonement. Lake had similar heretical teachings. The Assemblies of God today teach faith healing. I believe God can heal us but these teachers usually teach that if God does not heal you it is your fault in some way. A very evil thing to say in my opinion.

Pentecost Churches today water baptize people by full immersion, and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit.

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Full immersion is biblical, are you saying others are required to receive the Holy Spirit?

Converts know when they have received the indwelling Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues [praying in the Spirit] just as Jesus declared that they shall.

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So anyone that has not done this has not been regenerated?

James 3: why God gives us a new spiritual language for prayer to Him...
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature;
and it is set on fire of hell.
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

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This has nothing to do with speaking in tongues or a prayer language. It is talking about how our words reflect our true condition of our heart. Paul in 1 Cor 14 talks about a language we cannot understand is not edifying.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1Corinthians 14:
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

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praying in the spirit does NOT equal speaking in tongues.

How do you know you are speaking in tongues? and it is from God?

Bendito said:

Keep reading your verse my friend.....Born of water and of the spirit....That which is born of the flesh is flesh..That which is born of spirit is spirit....
You cannot be born of the spirit if you are not born of the flesh.... You were born of the flesh......Now you must be born of the spirit. Not complicated.

Nobody anywhere in the bible was saved or born by baptism.

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Jesus was answering Nicodemus' question. He was thinking with his natural mind. He was thinking that Jesus was saying he had to be born again physically. He didn't understand what Jesus was saying, so Jesus made it plain to him. He must be born of water (of woman/natural birth) and of the Spirit (spiritual birth). Jesus was showing him that there are 2 births - one natural and one spiritual. There is no reason ever to read anything else into it, I agree. Thanks Bendito!

When interpreting scripture, context is everything! Always read scriptures in context, and compare scripture with scripture. Many, many false beliefs come from people taking scriptures out of context and making them say something they aren't saying.

Mark 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3;

B-A-C said:

Mark 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3;

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Yes, Amen brother. The great I AM I give power to use this vessel. For HE is in me and I "ought to be" going about to be pleasing to God; seeing it is not I that lives but His Spirit that dwells within and lives through me. Amen. There is a great awakening, a regeneration, He is coming back. Amen

It all comes back to this no matter where you have been and where you are...

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

If we have done and are continuing to these first works (Rev 2:5) and to abide in our first love (Rev 2:4) what shall not be added? Do we need to speak in tongues? Do we need to be immersed [baptized] in water? Do we need to be on fire for God? If the answer to any of those questions and other that people might ask is, YES, will not seeking the first things first cause them to be added?

Vincent said:

praying in the spirit does NOT equal speaking in tongues.

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Really. And how do you arrive at this conclusion in contravention of the scriptures themselves?
1Corinthians 14:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
And how can you pray in the Holy Spirit if not in tongues?

Vincent said:

How do you know you are speaking in tongues? and it is from God?

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Acts 10:44-47
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1Corinthians 14:22
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,
but for them which believe.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, ... ...

Waggles said:

Really. And how do you arrive at this conclusion in contravention of the scriptures themselves?
1Corinthians 14:
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
And how can you pray in the Holy Spirit if not in tongues?

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I never said when tongues were available it was not done in the spirit. I did say that praying in the spirit does not equal speaking in tongues. You cannot apply that to every time it says praying in the spirit in the bible. So you are saying that Eph 6:18 and Jude 1:20 can only mean speaking in tongues? How can this be if not all believers have this gift?

Acts 10:44-47
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1Corinthians 14:22
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,
but for them which believe.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, ... ...

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My question was not where you thing speaking in tongues is biblical but how you know you are speaking in a tongue when you are doing it?

B-A-C said:

Of course there are those who believe being born of water.. means natural birth.

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John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’