Hell and Christianity

KingJ · Dec 8, 2015

Ophel said:
You seem to not be able to grasp the fact that God did nothing to Job. Satan was the oppressor. God never left him for a second.

A revision of your view of God and His character is in order for you..

Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

KingJ · Dec 8, 2015

B-A-C said:
Questions 1 and 3 seem very similar.
1. The problem is that we do not judge righteously. I may want a policeman who gave me a ticket for speeding
to burn in hell. However, he didn't do anything wrong, he did his job.
So whether or not I would do it to someone doesn't matter. I am not God.

2. Would I approve of God?
Does it matter if I approve of Him or not? Do we have to approve of Him in order for Him to be God?
Many people do not approve of Him. Does that make Him less God?

Thanks for being the only one to attempt the questions.

I was truly shocked by your response though

.

1. We cannot judge on the level that God can, agreed. BUT we can still judge. We will judge angels. You wrote such a brilliant post in the judging thread and now you say this?

2. Approving of God is everything. The only reason we are saved is because we approve of God. If we did not approve of God why in the universe would we submit our lives to Him. I believe many would be ok with serving the devil if he was in charge.

Note how David says ''we give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1. Not 'give thanks because God is evil'. Or 'give thanks because God may be good'. David knew. God knows. That we all have working brains that can understand that we can discern God to be good.

Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.

KingJ · Dec 8, 2015

B-A-C said:
Hell is temporary. Eventually it gets cast into the lake of fire. ( Rev 20:14; )
Along with everyone who's name is not written in the Book of Life. ( Rev 20:15; )
The people who are in hell (hades) will be taken out of hell before they are thrown into the lake of fire. ( Rev 20:13; )

We can argue about whether ell was created solely for the angels or not... but in the end I'm not sure it matters.
1. Some people will go there, not just angels.
2. For the sake of argument, lets say it is just angels... does God punish angels but not people?
(I do notice that angels are not redeemable)

Does God torture? Is punishment sometimes the same thing as torture?

God allowed Satan to "touch the bone and flesh" of Job ( Job 2:5; )
Satan put sore boils from the sole of his feet to the crown of his head ( Job 2:7; )
The pain of this was very great ( Job 2:13; )

Job wasn't being punished for something he did wrong, God was letting Satan test him. ( Job 1:22; )
In fact it is so painful that Job wishes he was never born ( nearly all of chapter 3 )

In Exod 11:4-5; God says he will go out into the midst of Egypt, and all the firstborn of the Egyptians will die.
Now perhaps God did not torture the babies. But was their torture for their mothers?
There was a great cry in Egypt such as was never heard before and there shall never be again ( Exod 11:6; )

In 1 Cor 5:5; Paul says he is turning a member of the church over to Satan... for the destruction of his flesh,
so that his spirit might be saved....

Yes, God loves us..... that isn't the issue. He loves even sinners... ( Rom 5:8; )
But just because God loves you, doesn't mean you are saved. He loves the un-saved.

The rich man in Luke 16, was in agony and torment... (in Hades) ... Luke 16:23-25;
Hades is not a resort, a rest home, a place to relax.
The rich man has 5 brothers... he wants someone to warn them, so that they will not come to the place of torment ( Luke 16:28; )

In Rev 14... we see an interesting passage.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Those who worship the beast... will drink of the wrath of God... mixed in full strength... in the cup of His anger.
They will be tormented with fire and brimstone... in the presence of the Lamb ( Jesus ).
And their torment goes up forever and ever... they have no rest, day or night.
Anyone who worships the beast and receives his mark on their hand or forehead.

Is punishment the same thing as torture?
God definitely punishes.

In Rev when the judgment bowls are being poured out upon mankind...
(who's judgment? God's judgment!)
Men will be scorched with a fierce heat (fire from the sun) ( Rev 16:8-9; )
Men have loathsome malignant sore on them ( Rev 16:2; )
They will even gnaw on their tongues because of the pain and sores ( Rev 16:10-11; )

... there are dozens more examples... and more verses about the torment being forever... ( Rev 20:10; )

If you want to call it torture... that's up to you. But it is the righteous judgment of God.

God says of Babylon... "to the degree that she glorified herself, to the same degree
I will give her torment". ( Rev 18:7; )

I think God torturing deserves its own thread. When I get time can I copy paste this post to it / or ask the mods to?

I have wanted to deal with this subject in a current and past sense (without blurring it on future vastly unknown, hell) for a while. It is absolutely impossible to defend a God that tortures His enemies. The insinuation / even hint of it is sickness / satanism personified imho

.

KingJ · Dec 8, 2015

Bendito said:
You said 'Please read the post before just replying. Bendito made the statement ''Man can only sin when Satan and his cohorts draws him into it'' The scripture used as support contradicted this.'
The scripture I used says this!! You need to read it before you start to answer...It says clearly that we are Drawn away, tempted..Enticed.....by the use of our desires.

Who is the tempter? Not your desires, it says your desires are the BAIT Who uses that bait against you? Satan is the tempter.
Matt 4:3....1 Thessalonians 3:5
Really my friend....I don't know what bible you use but....

''Man can only sin when Satan and his cohorts draws him into it'' = FALSE

If that were true then we would all be in heaven and satan paying for our / Edit *his crimes.

No, the devil being a / the tempter does not mean he is fully to blame for man falling into sin.

You think God needed the devil to tempt Eve and Eve to tempt Adam? That is the way it happened. This does not mean it could not have happened another way.

Jesus died for mankind because mankind is evil. The devil was used because he was available to be used, to speed up the inevitable fall from grace of mankind. It was just a matter of time before Adam and Eve would have eaten of that fruit.

KingJ · Dec 8, 2015

Wired 4 Fishen said:
Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God)

when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt.

HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....spare his life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...

The once satan finally grasped that Job had stepped out of or lost the blessing this protective hedge...well you know the story....satin went after job with vengeance.

Then Job ran his mouth complaining about everything but still NEVER CURSED GOD......Funny how this story ends.....God sends a preacher to preach some sense back into job.......AND once Job repented of his errors...God restored the blessing back and Job increased in all.

Now then a couple of things.
It was Job who said God giveth and God taketh away and NOT God but More Christians quote this as scripture.

People argue over God sending Satan because God said job did not sin......truth is job did not sin by cursing God is what scripture is referring to.

blessings brother - just wanted to add an Addy to it. ROFL
james w

This is the most twisted take on Job I have ever read.

Job was the most FAITHFUL man of God on the planet.

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.

Job was tested and trialed to see if he would remain faithful through hell. He did. God was proven right. The devil was proven wrong. You and I will be reporting to Job in heaven for all eternity. We are not even close to being anywhere near as faithful to God as he was.

B-A-C · Dec 8, 2015

KingJ said:
I think God torturing deserves its own thread. When I get time can I copy paste this post to it / or ask the mods to?

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago called The Wrath of God.

KingJ said:
Approving of God is everything. The only reason we are saved is because we approve of God.

That's a interesting way to phrase it. We are saved because we believe in Jesus/God.
They approve (or disapprove as the case may be) of us. They judge us.
It is not our place to judge God.
We serve God. He doesn't serve us. We need to please Him. He doesn't have to go around pleasing us.

I'm not saying this is you, but some people have this vending machine concept of God.
They don't really talk to Him, or pray to Him, ... except when they want something, or need something.
Then it's always the same prayer... God can you give me this or give me that...
(the Bible mentions asking God for things with the wrong motives)

God is not our servant. He does give us things (that we need, not always what we want).
We should be more interested in serving Him, rather than judging Him.

Bendito · Dec 8, 2015

Wired 4 Fishen said:
@Bendito check this out

BEHOLD he is already in your hand"
We don't use the word Behold much at all these days. I mean when was the last time you heard some one say BEHOLD is not this car beautiful ?

Now if you look up this word "Behold" in any of the translations such as Hebrew or Greek or English or Spanish or any other translation...YOU WILL LEARN that it ALWAYS MEANS " Look and see. Wake up and pay attention"

See God was telling satan that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given satan the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt. HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....spare his life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...

The once satan finally grasped that Job had stepped out of or lost the blessing this protective hedge...well you know the story....satin went after job with vengeance.

Then Job ran his mouth complaining about everything but still NEVER CURSED GOD......Funny how this story ends.....God sends a preacher to preach some sense back into job.......AND once Job repented of his errors...God restored the blessing back and Job increased in all.

Now then a couple of things.
It was Job who said God giveth and God taketh away and NOT God but More Christians quote this as scripture.

People argue over God sending Satan because God said job did not sin......truth is job did not sin by cursing God is what scripture is referring to.

blessings brother - just wanted to add an Addy to it. ROFL
james w

Very good post James...Thank you so much for it...It serves as both a learning tool for me and also a reminder is things known....Hugs on you my friend

Bendito · Dec 8, 2015

KingJ said:
This is the most twisted take on Job I have ever read.

Job was the most FAITHFUL man of God on the planet.

Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.

Job was tested and trialed to see if he would remain faithful through hell. He did. God was proven right. The devil was proven wrong. You and I will be reporting to Job in heaven for all eternity. We are not even close to being anywhere near as faithful to God as he was.

Scripture does NOT back up this assertion

Bendito · Dec 8, 2015

Bendito said:
Scripture does NOT back up this assertion

Job 1 (CJB)
1 There was a man in the land of ‘Utz whose name was Iyov. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 Seven sons and three daughters were born to him. 3 He owned 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 pairs of oxen and 500 female donkeys, as well as a great number of servants; so that he was the wealthiest man in the east.

4 It was the custom of his sons to give banquets, each on his set day in his own house; and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 After a cycle of banquets, Iyov would send for them to come and be consecrated; then he would get up early in the morning and offer burnt offerings for each of them, because Iyov said, “My sons might have sinned and blasphemed God in their thoughts.” This is what Iyov did every time. (Right here!) Job was living in FEAR....Fear is the opposite of faith...Well...not really.. Faith is believing that God will do as HE SAYS...Fear is believing in the harm that Satan can do to you..
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

As James says "Job never blamed God for his problems..He always held God in reverential respect.(He feared God) But he did have his weakness..Fear.

6 It happened one day that the sons of God came to serve Adonai, and among them came the Adversary . 7 Adonai asked the Adversary, “Where are you coming from?” The Adversary answered Adonai, “From roaming through the earth, wandering here and there.” 8 Adonai asked the Adversary, “Did you notice my servant Iyov, that there’s no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 The Adversary answered Adonai, “Is it for nothing that Iyov fears God? 10 You’ve put a protective hedge around him, his house and everything he has. You’ve prospered his work, and his livestock are spread out all over the land. 11 But if you reach out your hand and touch whatever he has, without doubt he’ll curse you to your face!” 12 Adonai said to the Adversary, “Here! Everything he has is in your hands, except that you are not to lay a finger on his person.” Then the Adversary went out from the presence of Adonai.

13 One day when Iyov’s sons and daughters were eating and drinking in their oldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to him and said, “The oxen were plowing, with the donkeys grazing near them, 15 when a raiding party from Sh’va came and carried them off; they put the servants to the sword too, and I’m the only one who escaped to tell you.”

16 While he was still speaking, another one came and said, “Fire from God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants; it completely destroyed them, and I’m the only one who escaped to tell you.”

17 While he was still speaking, another one came and said, “The Kasdim, three bands of them, fell on the camels and carried them off; they put the servants to the sword too, and I’m the only one who escaped to tell you.”

18 While he was still speaking, another one came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a strong wind blew in from over the desert. It struck the four corners of the house, so that it fell on the young people; they are dead, and I’m the only one who escaped to tell you.”

20 Iyov got up, tore his coat, shaved his head, fell down on the ground and worshipped; 21 he said,

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will return there.
Adonai gave; Adonai took;
blessed be the name of Adonai.”

22 In all this Iyov neither committed a sin nor put blame on God.

Ophel · Dec 8, 2015

KingJ said:
Google brimstone.

More succinctly, brimstone is burning sulphur. It will destroy the body, but spirits will not be destroyed, nor will human spirits.

I asked you so nicely to not dodge the questions.

No, Ophel. The visions people see of hell is not scriptural. They all describe a terrible place to GET BOOK SALES. If they described a nice place or a boring place, nobody would be shocked into caring about their vision.

God-given visions are from God. They indicate truth that we cannot know apart from the Spirit of God who downloads His truth to us. Book sales have nothing to do with it.

I had a vision of hell. It looked like Earth. I am thinking about writing a book on it. Will you help me raise funds? God gave me a special vision that he gave nobody else. Not even John or Isaiah. I am a stand out Christian. I think God likes me more then others.

Yeah, this is a typical cynic's comment.

.

Ophel · Dec 8, 2015

KingJ said:
Job 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

So, have you learned from this?

.

Bendito · Dec 8, 2015

Ophel said:
More succinctly, brimstone is burning sulphur. It will destroy the body, but spirits will not be destroyed, nor will human spirits.

God-given visions are from God. They indicate truth that we cannot know apart from the Spirit of God who downloads His truth to us. Book sales have nothing to do with it.

Yeah, this is a typical cynic's comment.

.

LOL You're thinking of writing a book? Good joke...If you were to try that, make sure you're ready to WORK...I know....I realize you were teasing

Ophel · Dec 8, 2015

Bendito said:
LOL You're thinking of writing a book? Good joke...If you were to try that, make sure you're ready to WORK...I know....I realize you were teasing

The book comment was from KingJ.

As an aside, I know it is hard work writing a book! I edited and helped to polish my mother's book, and while it was enjoyable work, it was tedious!

.

Bendito · Dec 8, 2015

Ophel said:
The book comment was from KingJ.

As an aside, I know it is hard work writing a book! I edited and helped to polish my mother's book, and while it was enjoyable work, it was tedious!

.

Sorry...I stuck it into the wrong place....:whistle:laugh:

Ophel · Dec 8, 2015

Bendito said:
Sorry...I stuck it into the wrong place....:whistle:laugh:

That's not a problem!

.

Wired 4 Fishen · Dec 8, 2015

KingJ said:
Yes. David is quite clear that God does whatever pleases Him. Liar and murderer? No, you just not understanding the point I am making or what the bible is trying to say.

The irony of not talking. I should refuse to talk to you 3 because you deal with my God on a promise basis and propose He is going to be eternally cruel to His enemies. IE I think you have mistaken God for satan. Satan deals with his children on a promise basis and would definitely be cruel to us for eternity if he had the opportunity.

The irony of not talking. I should refuse to talk to you 3 because you deal with my God on a promise basis and propose He is going to be eternally cruel to His enemies. IE I think you have mistaken God for satan. Satan deals with his children on a promise basis and would definitely be cruel to us for eternity if he had the opportunity

The above is cut from what you said. Bro you are talking as a one who speaks foolishness for truth. You have no real or at least very little spiritual understanding and revelational knowledge to claim such junk as you have here.

Hebrews 6:13-20New Living Translation (NLT) ... easier for you to grasp

God’s Promises Bring Hope

13 For example, there was God’s promise to Abraham. Since there was no one greater to swear by, God took an oath in his own name, saying:

14 “I will certainly bless you,
and I will multiply your descendants beyond number.”[a]

15 Then Abraham waited patiently, and he received what God had promised.

16 Now when people take an oath, they call on someone greater than themselves to hold them to it. And without any question that oath is binding.

17 God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind.

18 So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us.

19 This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary.

20 Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Now then Kj once you understand how sacred and trustworthy our covenant with God is and how serious God takes this covenant with us you may begin to learn some things. This will also require understanding the importance of and binding a covenant really is.

Gods word and promises are His covenant with us. He is big bound unto them for God had nothing higher them Himself to sware by so He swore by all the honor of His name for we know God Can NOT and WILL NOT LIE.

Part of honoring this covenant between God and our selves is knowing what His word says. This is done through time spent with Him and changing how we think in order to think as God thinks.

kj you trade the renewing of your mind unto the ways of God for your own witts. This is why you refuse the truth when you hear it. Relying on your brains bro is not going to cut it in the kingdom of God.

Do as you wish and believe what you want for it is your free right to do so under Gods grace and the free will you have been given.
God Bless
James W

KingJ · Dec 9, 2015

B-A-C said:
I started a thread a couple of weeks ago called The Wrath of God.

That's a interesting way to phrase it. We are saved because we believe in Jesus/God.
They approve (or disapprove as the case may be) of us. They judge us.
It is not our place to judge God. We serve God. He doesn't serve us. We need to please Him. He doesn't have to go around pleasing us.

I'm not saying this is you, but some people have this vending machine concept of God.
They don't really talk to Him, or pray to Him, ... except when they want something, or need something.
Then it's always the same prayer... God can you give me this or give me that...
(the Bible mentions asking God for things with the wrong motives)

God is not our servant. He does give us things (that we need, not always what we want).
We should be more interested in serving Him, rather than judging Him.

Agree with many having a vending machine concept.

Disagree that we can't judge God. I agree in the sense that we are an ant and He is God of the universe. But feel you are not dealing with the fact that He puts Himself on our level / beneath us + gives us His infallible word...which is pretty much evidence of Him being completely open about His character + brain to discern. He definitely wants us to grasp that He is good and not evil.

It sounds to me as though you are making almost a Calvinistic point. Rom 9 says God can do whatever He wants and who are we to have a say? That is true. But it is also true that the rest of scripture tells us exactly what God does decide to do with His power.

You need to grasp that God wants us to be happy with serving Him. Not serve Him because He is the almighty.

It is the very reason we are created on earth. God is like a rich man wanting a bride who wants Him for Him and not His money.

It is so funny to hear Christians say if they had enough faith they could lead many to the Lord. As though people seeing miracles and God's power in action...actually love God. As you correctly said vending machine God vs real God

.

KingJ · Dec 9, 2015

B-A-C said:
I started a thread a couple of weeks ago called The Wrath of God.

I want to focus specifically on torture. God's wrath is real and en route to all outside of Jesus. But if it is ever in the form of torture...God is evil. God is not evil.

Since scripture says God is not evil. God expects us to use our working brain to arrive at that truth. Hence on all matters that seem '''blurry / borderline evil'' we need to ask questions in this light. Example hell: How does an exceedingly good God justify sending people to an eternity in lava?

KingJ · Dec 9, 2015

Ophel said:
1. More succinctly, brimstone is burning sulphur. It will destroy the body, but spirits will not be destroyed, nor will human spirits. 2. God-given visions are from God. They indicate truth that we cannot know apart from the Spirit of God who downloads His truth to us. 3. Book sales have nothing to do with it. 4. Yeah, this is a typical cynic's comment..

1. Google more then the dictionary.
2. Any vision that conflicts with scripture is from the devil. Normally the first page reveals heresy. What book on hell do you actually believe is true?
3. Book sales have everything to do with it. If I was given a vision I would freely give as I freely received.
4. 100% cynic on this and most of what you believe, yes :thumbsup:.

KingJ · Dec 9, 2015

Bendito said:
Scripture does NOT back up this assertion

When God says ''There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil''.

I think He means ''There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil''.

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