Before a person becomes a child of God, their "heart" can not be trusted as it is evil and wicked. Even though their heart is corrupt they still know the difference between right, and wrong, good, and evil because all man kind inherited from Adam, and Eve the knowledge of good and evil because they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Once a man become "born again" by getting a new heart (spirit) that heart can be trusted in all things. Our "conscience" is the "voice" of our new spirit. The Apostle Paul always trusted his conscience (heart) in all things. Faith can never work if our conscience is not clear from offense. The law written on our hearts uses our own conscience to help us do what is right.

1Ti_1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

1Ti_3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

Heb_13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

Act_23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

Rom_9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

The good conscience comes from living a Godly life. There is a difference between a good conscience and a deceived conscience.
(Matt 7:21; )

2 Cor 1:12; For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

It comes from holiness and godly sincerity. But there are those who think they get this automatically.
Their conscience is "seared over" and they no longer care about holiness.

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

TaylorDonBarret said:

I have heard some people use this scripture about God writing His laws on our heart in order to argue that born-again, Spirit filled believers have every single law of God written upon their heart at the very first moment they believed.

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I believe to a certain extent, that does happen, but it is not from you but the one inside you. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He is the total embodiment of the law, he is perfect in the law and he is inside you. He fulfills the law through you. God calls us righteous but not our righteousness but through the one who is inside us! So, in a way God does right his law on you heart and the means is by Jesus in you!

Curtis said:

Before a person becomes a child of God, their "heart" can not be trusted as it is evil and wicked. Even though their heart is corrupt they still know the difference between right, and wrong, good, and evil because all man kind inherited from Adam, and Eve the knowledge of good and evil because they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Once a man become "born again" by getting a new heart (spirit) that heart can be trusted in all things. Our "conscience" is the "voice" of our new spirit.

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in my own experience and from what i have observed of others also, this is just not true. I deal with my evil heart, my old sinful nature, and my evil desires on a daily basis. but there is no doubt that i am truly born-again. and i know many people who are truly born-again, and yet often times they say "God told me such-and-such" and they are only just repeating their own thoughts. I don't know of any Christian who says that they are always completely able to accurately decipher between the voice of The Holy Spirit and the voice of their own thoughts. Most mature Christians I know and have heard from say that God mainly speaks to them through His Word, and most of the other times they think they are hearing from Him they are really just hearing their own thoughts.

RJ said:

I believe to a certain extent, that does happen, but it is not from you but the one inside you. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He is the total embodiment of the law, he is perfect in the law and he is inside you. He fulfills the law through you. God calls us righteous but not our righteousness but through the one who is inside us! So, in a way God does right his law on you heart and the means is by Jesus in you!

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I like the way you explained that.

TaylorDonBarret said:

I have heard some people use this scripture about God writing His laws on our heart in order to argue that born-again, Spirit filled believers have every single law of God written upon their heart at the very first moment they believed. But i think the bible and experience both testify that this is not the case. We know that even the born again, Spirit filled believer cannot trust always trust their heart and their instincts.. we saw Peter sin. And we know Paul sinned. And we know John sinned. They all testify that they could not trust their own hearts and instincts, even after being born-again. And we do not always know the difference between what our own heart is telling us and what The Holy Spirit is telling us. In fact i would say that a lot of time most Christians say "God told me" they really are saying"my heart told me, but i though it was God telling me". Anyways, the promise remains "I will write my laws on their hearts". So how do we explain this? I would explain it as we experience it - He writes His laws one at a time, as many as we will receive. The process of sanctification = the process of writing the laws, one by one, down on our heart. We do not know and believe in and practice all of God's laws the moment we believe and are saved and filled with The Spirit, but we gradually over time become made holy, precept upon precept, God writes His laws down on our heart, one at a time.

Would you agree?

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What is 'the law'?

Travis said:

What is 'the law'?

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good question.
the law of Christ, is what i would say, to be vague and general.
but getting more specific, the law of Christ is the teachings of Christ and Christ's apostles as found in the new testament canon.
thats what i would say.

So it's not a list of written commandments?

Do not steal.
Do not murder.

Etc

Travis said:

So it's not a list of written commandments?

Do not steal.
Do not murder.

Etc

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well, the teachings of Christ and Christ's apostles are written down in the new testament canon.
so, yeah, i would say that the law of Christ is a list of written commandments.
at least, its not "less" than a list of written commandments.
it would also be much more, but how to go about describing it, i would just say it has to do with the indwelling of The Holy Spirit.
but beyond that, i could not say much of anything else on the subject.

Travis said:

What is 'the law'?

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Some times the words observances or precepts are used.
If you think about it the law unto self is our personal belief system.
So the law of Christ to me would be his way of observing,judging,measuring or believing.
Every judgement I make is a law.
Every measurement I make is a law.
Every decision I make is based on these laws (observations,judgements,measurements)

The work of God is to believe on the one whom God sent.
So in order to do that I would need to make every judgment and measurement or observation based on
every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

TaylorDonBarret said:

in my own experience and from what i have observed of others also, this is just not true. I deal with my evil heart, my old sinful nature, and my evil desires on a daily basis. but there is no doubt that i am truly born-again. and i know many people who are truly born-again, and yet often times they say "God told me such-and-such" and they are only just repeating their own thoughts. I don't know of any Christian who says that they are always completely able to accurately decipher between the voice of The Holy Spirit and the voice of their own thoughts. Most mature Christians I know and have heard from say that God mainly speaks to them through His Word, and most of the other times they think they are hearing from Him they are really just hearing their own thoughts.

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Brother I advise you to NEVER go by experience. The Word is always true and if our experiences differ from what the Word of God says, then it is our own fault not the Word if we are not experiencing truth.
Jesus Christ who just so happens to be our new life can NEVER be deceived at any time. He is perfect in us. If we are failing to hear him that is not his fault but ours. Spiritual growth into a perfect man (mature) does not happen over night. It takes time for the Word of God to "separate" the "soul" from the "spirit", and "flesh".
If you do not know this and allow it to happen then you will always be missing what the Lord is saying to you, and will constantly being double minded in all you do.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Curtis said:

Brother I advise you to NEVER go by experience. The Word is always true and if our experiences differ from what the Word of God says, then it is our own fault not the Word if we are not experiencing truth.
Jesus Christ who just so happens to be our new life can NEVER be deceived at any time. He is perfect in us. If we are failing to hear him that is not his fault but ours. Spiritual growth into a perfect man (mature) does not happen over night. It takes time for the Word of God to "separate" the "soul" from the "spirit", and "flesh".
If you do not know this and allow it to happen then you will always be missing what the Lord is saying to you, and will constantly being double minded in all you do.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

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you tell me not to go by experience
that is exactly what i am telling you
i do not go by experience, or emotions, or feelings, or my own thoughts.
i go by what The Word of God says.
not by what my heart says, or what my mind thinks, or what my experiences indicate.
as a born-again believer I know that my only trustworthy guide is the Word of God.
not my own heart, nor my own understanding.

simply believing that i will never sin again will not make it so. in fact, that would only make the problem worse! i needed to recognize my sinful nature, ask forgiveness when i sin, and always be aware of my sinful desires in order to make sure that they do not overtake me!

i think that if you disagree with me, then you may be walking around in a self-deceived state of ignorance concerning the sin in your life

double post

TaylorDonBarret said:

you tell me not to go by experience
that is exactly what i am telling you
i do not go by experience, or emotions, or feelings, or my own thoughts.
i go by what The Word of God says.
not by what my heart says, or what my mind thinks, or what my experiences indicate.
as a born-again believer I know that my only trustworthy guide is the Word of God.
not my own heart, nor my own understanding.

simply believing that i will never sin again will not make it so. in fact, that would only make the problem worse! i needed to recognize my sinful nature, ask forgiveness when i sin, and always be aware of my sinful desires in order to make sure that they do not overtake me!

i think that if you disagree with me, then you may be walking around in a self-deceived state of ignorance concerning the sin in your life

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If you say you only believe the Word of God, then why are you not believing what the Apostle Paul said about trusting completely his own "conscience" which the voice of mans own spirit? If you are saying your heart is evil and can not be trusted you are saying Jesus Christ can not be trusted because he is our new heart. Just believe what the Word says!!

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Curtis said:

If you are saying your heart is evil and can not be trusted you are saying Jesus Christ can not be trusted because he is our new heart. Just believe what the Word says!!

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So that verse about the heart being deceitful:


That's only talking about those who are not born again, then?

Travis said:

So that verse about the heart being deceitful:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? - Jeremiah 17:9​

That's only talking about those who are not born again, then?

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What happens when a person receives a new heart at the new birth? Is that heart still "deceitful"?

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Curtis said:

What happens when a person receives a new heart at the new birth? Is that heart still "deceitful"?

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

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Salvation is spoken of in 3 distinct tenses.

We are saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

All three are true. We have been saved, but we are not yet fully saved. If there is no future resurrection, then we are without hope in this world. We have not yet attained the goal, the prize, we are currently in the process of being saved (sanctification). One day, we will be fully saved, in fullest meaning of the term.

Same with the heart. If we are born again:

We have a new heart.
Our heart is being transformed by God.
One day we will have a perfectly clean, without a trace of sin in it, heart.

We haven't obtained that last one yet.

Here is some good stuff from John Owen and someone else summarizing him:


Blessings,

Travis

p.s. one more:

Travis said:

Salvation is spoken of in 3 distinct tenses.

We are saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

All three are true. We have been saved, but we are not yet fully saved. If there is no future resurrection, then we are without hope in this world. We have not yet attained the goal, the prize, we are currently in the process of being saved (sanctification). One day, we will be fully saved, in fullest meaning of the term.

Same with the heart. If we are born again:

We have a new heart.
Our heart is being transformed by God.
One day we will have a perfectly clean, without a trace of sin in it, heart.

We haven't obtained that last one yet.

Here is some good stuff from John Owen and someone else summarizing him:

The Nature of the Human Heart according to Scripture
Owen refers to the “heart” numerous times and in this section takes a moment to describe what he means by the term. Generally speaking, “heart” in Scripture refers to the whole of a man considered in his desires, decisions, and plans; it refers to man viewed as a morally responsible being. Owen comments:

The heart in the Scripture is variously used; sometimes for the mind and understanding, sometimes for the will, sometimes for the affections, sometimes for the conscience, sometimes for the whole soul. Generally, it denotes the whole soul of man and all the faculties of it, not absolutely, but as they are all one principle of moral operations, as they all concur in our doing good or evil.22

....

The Heart Is Unsearchable
The heart is virtually unsearchable to human beings. Certainly no one can fully understand the heart of another person and no person can fully understand his/her own heart either. The human heart is fully pervious to God alone; only he can plumb the depths of our hearts and render an accurate verdict as to what he finds there. And, remember, it is in that unsearchable heart that the law of sin dwells.

Much of the strength of indwelling sin, then, lies in this fact, namely, that the heart itself is beyond understanding. This allows sin to have its sway and power. Thus we may suppose a certain sin to have been defeated when in reality it has only temporarily slipped out of sight-where we cannot follow it and destroy it—only to reappear at a more convenient time.

3. The Seat of Sin, the Heart | Bible.org​

Blessings,

Travis

p.s. one more:

Mortification Never Ends in This Life
The redeemed soul, by the grace of God and his indwelling Spirit (Rom 8:13), must press on toward perfection. To this it has been called. Thus, our role is one of co-operation with God, in which we put to death the misdeeds of the body (Phil 2:12-13). And we shall do this for as long as we are in this body. Only at glorification, in the next life, will there be no need for mortification. How much more do we realize this now, since we have come to understand that the very home of sin, i.e., our hearts, is deceitful? The person who dies fighting this fight, dies a victor. As Owen says,​

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When a man becomes a new creation, his heart is now Jesus Christ. As the first Adam became a living soul, the last Adam became a life giving Spirit. Christ is NOT being made perfect at any time as he is already perfect in us in every way!!! We are his body and he is our life. The only part of man that has any kind of changing to be done is his "soul", which has to do with man "renewing" his mind. Jesus Christ never changes in us for he is the same yesterday, today and for ever. No, man is not being saved he is already saved the moment he made Jesus Christ the Lord of his life. As the Apostle John tells us that we already have eternal life, it is not something that will be given at some future date.

1Jn 5:13.. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The new "heart" in man can NEVER sin, because Christ in us can never sin!!!!!!!

1Jn_3:9.. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Do you have any clue who this "seed" of the Word of God is that man is born of? The seed is God himself. Can God ever sin and be deceitful? Not a chance!!!!

Who do you think the "hidden" man of the "heart is? That man is Jesus Christ who is "incorruptible"!!!

1Pe 3:4.. But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Curtis said:

If you say you only believe the Word of God, then why are you not believing what the Apostle Paul said about trusting completely his own "conscience" which the voice of mans own spirit? If you are saying your heart is evil and can not be trusted you are saying Jesus Christ can not be trusted because he is our new heart. Just believe what the Word says!!

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

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i think you are focusing on certain scriptures to the exclusion of others. you only have to look to other new testament writing to see that the apostles still struggled against their old sinful natures, and failed at times, even after receiving the Spirit of Christ inside of them.

be careful that you are not deceiving yourself


travis gave you a very good, very detailed, very accurate response that is built on, not just 20th century pop theology, but thousands of years of Holy Spirit filled wisdom.

Curtis said:

The new "heart" in man can NEVER sin, because Christ in us can never sin!!!!!!!

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I think that's an important distinction,I am not trying to regenerate the mind or heart of a man as much as
allowing God to reveal that eternal one that is seated in the heavenlies with Christ.
I have to ask myself who I am,a human stuck in time and space or a totally new being formed in,by and for Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I have to choose who I am,should I believe God or the mirror.
If you ask me if I sin I have to say no because I believe I am that one seated in heaven.
I can have sin and not be a sinner because it is not me sinning it is sin itself sinning.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So I do not deny having sin any more that I would deny having a cold.
I am not a cold but I can be attacked by a cold.
I am not a sinner saved by grace,I was a sinner who died(was saved) by grace and now live in the resurrection of Christ.
The one who comes from God cannot sin,I just have to decide if I believe God that I am that one.

Overcoming sin by willpower is like trying to hold back a flood with a broom.
Anything that is not of faith is sin so fear is sin and so is the fear of sinning or the fear of God rejecting me.
The desires of the dead man haunt the soul so I must live out of that new spiritual/eternal reality.
The soul wars against the spirit but I must not think I am both or I will waver in everything.

All things are new,all things are of God,all things work together for good,all are ministering spirits.
The new birth comes with new desires to grow the new fruit.