DHC said:

Only one of these two possible meanings of the word 'foreknew' is the correct meaning to use in this verse. So which meaning
of foreknew is correct and why?

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Everyone brings different things to table and have different reasoning about scriptures and theology, like here, the theology of predestination and election. Some take it literally that God predestines or elects who he chooses and petty much excludes any other possibilities that can effect the outcome, also saying things like "unconditional salvation". I, unfortunately for some, take it differently. Though I am not going to discredit predestination and election because it is in God's word too much, I am compelled to add free will choice in the equation. I have also seen too much free will choice throughout the Bible, from Adam, Abraham, David and on and on. So I choose no. 2:

DHC said:

2. To know before the event has occurred that a person will believe at some future time. An example, God knew before
the creation itself that RJ would believe in Jesus (God foreknew RJ).

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That is it in a nutshell. I sound like a broken record but God is omnipresent and omnipotent, are you denying God's power to be in the future as he pleases? I don't know what else to say brother. I think it is also right here in the question that I have asked on repeated occasions and , yet have gotten conformation on: If you believe in scripture that says the Lamb's Book of Life( the divine book that has every name of every saved believer, ever!) was complete before the foundation of the world, then......how did God do that?

RJ said:

Not through the human mind.
But when we are fully spiritual, it is a totally different matter: 1 Corinthians 13:12 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known

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Indeed . . . I John 3:2 validates what you say.

Hello RJ.

Thanks for the reply RJ and I do respect your opinion. You are free to choose which ever interpretation
you believe most fairly represents the revelation of the scripture. Having read your posts for some years
now, I am well aware of what you believe RJ.

May I ask you to once again choose the appropriate meaning of 'foreknew' in another verse from the
letter to the Romans?

I will repeat the choice, the word 'foreknew' has only one of two possible meanings.

1. to have known someone previously, to have had a prior relationship with someone. For example,
God had known the Jews previously and had a previous relationship with the Jews. God formerly
knew the Jews (He foreknew them).

2. To know before the event has occurred that a person will believe at some future time. An example,
God knew before the creation itself that RJ would believe in Jesus (God foreknew RJ).

So which of the two meanings above would you use to translate 'foreknew' in the following verse?

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Greetings,

First, I do not want to take from the above questions @DHC & @RJ.

Perhaps the following might help us to see a little more clearly.
What often happens is that we seek law or we prefer not to be tarred with that brush so we either say that scripture says or else we call it doctrine, in order to prove all manner of answers and solutions and reasoning to things like, "is it lawful for a man to marry his widows sister?" but worse still we do this with things of Scripture.

I originally wrote this to a brother who escaped, was set free from (was delivered from?) The Tulip , so I ask that if some of it seems a bit odd, it is because I have been a bit lazy and copy pasted it here.
Basically we keep asking the wrong question and spend centuries debating /fighting /defending /dividing /entrapping /entangling /imprisoning our minds and miss the message of the Gospel for ourselves and countless others, slaves to ignorance and servants of flesh.
As you will see, this refers to both those for and against Calvinism - as well as so many other man made messages.

I will get to it in a little while, but before I do I would like to say a little that you can decide upon :
Old JC decided to put God in a box and rewrite the Scriptures. He came up with things that the old priests did not like because it messed with their livelihood and position with the kings queens and emperors. To get disciples he used fear and condemnation but he also had such a way with words that many simply followed and ministered to his needs and in time and in centuries following, faithfully translated and copied his teachings.
Now, I know Whom I choose to follow, do you?
Which JC will it be for thee?
_______________,
For the LORD giveth wisdom:
out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 2:6

Brother, you asked about my take on Jesus foreknowing from John.
I had been there before in study and prayer and re-entering with much prayer, resigned to know the Lord and His take on it.
After much praying the above Scripture was 'given' and as always with the Lord, He could answer in His way which is not my way.
I seek after stimulation of my undestanding and all too often base that on what and how much my mind can comprehend and figure things out, which in itself does not have to be bad, for we must apply ourselves to know wisdom and we must seek to find, but all too often, as stated, I/we can rely far too much upon out mortal or fleshy interpretations and with this thrives the applying of the traditions of man and the teachings of man which always misses the mark and denies the LORD as its result.

Brother, we must... must, ask and seek the Lord that He would show us outside of what we think or think we know as so often our chirstianese and churchianity take a deep root in our mind and comprehension and interpretation of the written Word and therefore defiles also the truth about the Living Word Who is the Truth, manifested for the express purpose of the Lord to perform all that He is sent to do of His will, not returning void but accomplishing that which is perfected already from and in the One Who sent and Speaks that Word.
With that said, prayfully that you may understand what I am writing to you, I saw with joy the answer that had already been with me but my words could not quite express and it all came together as it should as all good does.

Most of our thinking gets marred by what is the 'norm', the way everyone accepts and interprets Scripture but nothing new being the case under the sun, it usually remains the blind leading the blind and from this we then boast great doctrine and of course bear fruit of error and to put it bluntly, darkness rather than light or, more bluntly, Darkness rather than Light.

But, let us take hold of Him Who is Light and rejoice for in Him is no void nor shadow of turning and He does give good gifts unto men.

Calvinism is the fruit of bad fruit. It in itself is also seen as bad fruit and a tree cannot produce differently from that from whence it comes.
Let us take of the wild and graft it in and allow the Life to be our new and living life, overflowing and bearing only the nature of the One to Who we are grafted... of course I say this in full understanding that it is not us but our Father Who is the husbandman and does the grafting into His Son.

Jesus knew from the beginning or had foreknowledge of who would and who would not.
Look again at the Scripture,
For the LORD giveth wisdom:
out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
What did Jesus know? How did He know it?

Jesus said more than once that He did and spoke that which was given Him to do, that the works He did were not His own but the Father's and we need to keep that in mind here (and elswhere).
Looking at the Scripture in question, from John 6:64b
"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."
we must not overlook the whole story before especially here in John 6, where we see what has already been stated about the Lord and His Word and words.

How did He know?
When did He know it?

Brother, as a mechanically minded farmer, I know that while you may have everything needed to take on everything that comes your way, the working of the precise tools and situation are never in place before the time of being needed but available to you if and when needed, to use often differently for as many different tasks at hand as they arise.You have what it takes but what is the 'it' bit?
Well, in farming and mechanics it differs so much. You certainly do not have everything on and in hand for every season and every breakdown, repair and task but they are all available for when the time arises.... therefore we have what it takes to do the job.

Wisdom is from Where and Who?

My Jesus emptied Himself of the postion in God to become a man, a servant to man and the full representative of man as the Son of man... emptied .. emptyhanded... and we have an ensample and example in Him....
Trust in the Lord is such a rich direction from Scripture and listen to the Lord, follow the Lord, do whatsoever I have commanded... obey, believe, doers not hearers only.. and the list goes on.

Was my Jesus removed from all those rich directions?
Was Our Jesus a cut above us all and therefore immune to all we suffer and toil and are tempted with or a feeble example to us to obey all that He was instructed? NO... absolutely NOT, my Brother.
We all too often forget this and place Him in our minds as One Who was not touched with the feelings of our infirmities, Who really had no need to bother or fuss... or even pray... but this is error.
He did pray, more than all of us ever appear to do.. but why would God pray to Himself? Doesn't add up, Brother.

Wisdom was given to Him, and knowledge and understanding proceed(ed) from His mouth.

"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him."
Read some of the first Proverbs and come back to this.
---------------------

Jesus had fed many and He knew who was in it for the food and who was there for Him and the Bread from Heaven, for it was given Him... what was? Wisdom was given Him...
Wisdom pertains to the LORD, not man and Wisdom is from Him as much as His Will and may I say, His Spirit, that is, Wisdom is Holy, not mortal, eternal, not corruptible and perishing. Wisdom is perefect and therfore can only be in direct relation and relationship with and to the LORD.

We tend to limit and think Wisdom as a thing employed by man in all his needy state and limit the power of God in doing so, remaining in Darkness, not knowing and being tossed by every wave and wind.
Wisdom is from the Beginning and our Jesus recieved Wisdom, walking as we do upon this earth...
there is much more and my feeble effort here is indeed feeble, but we see Him Who was made Widsom for us and for the express purpose for which He was sent and came.

Does our Scripture say that He knew ages before as in eras or from eternal, who would betray Him or believe not?
No. But we have 'learnt' to interpret the logic of it like that and so proceed to become confused by it all and find such error as Calvinism springing forth and perverting the Gospel given unto man for the Salvatin of souls.

We need to un-learn so much, Brother.
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.... seems to fit a bit here. (I don't mean yours, but you, me and anyone to whom it may apply as a need to so do).

When I meet someone or see a group of people from my mortal stance, I find it reasonably easy to perceive a bit about them as most likely you would too and in fact near everyone would and could and does.
When it comes down to or better put when it rises up to the things of the LORD, we must not rely on our understanding or perception but can only discern and know from and by and WITH Him from Whom such Wisdom comes.
In other words, Jesus was given to know, to be able to know, who was who and if you walked a moment in His shoes at that time, where so many came after Him for different reasons, from envy, trouble, hunger and genuine faith, it was His to know who was who... therefore, "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.".

Why do we re-write it all in a differnt language and meaning which leads to confusion?
Every Scripture balances not with us and our interpretaion but with itself and Him of Whom it speaks.
Can I ask you to read 1Corinthians 1 ?

The foreknowing you ask about is not as Calvinists preach and is also not as most others try to hold on to.

I pray this helps you.

In Jesus name in Whom we have our hope and redemption,

Bless you ....><>

How God deals with man, Adam not elected or foreknown.


Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
(Psa 139:3)

Blessings everyone, I am here to break down how God operates, how God deals with us, and What God can and can't do according to scriptures. People have made up Doctrines of election or Foreknowledge to keep the Soverigenty of God, two very different views so that God fits into mans idea of what God should be. One view removes mans responsiblty to be obedient and have faith. If God picks and chooses for us then there is no need for faith, or to be obedient as things will happen anyway as God has planned.

If God knows what we are going to choose and do from a child to adult, giving us a free choice, then the Creator that we should trust has by choice created us in the time we are in, place we were born, and conditions around us to help guide us into those choices, bad or good. Now if God knows all this before He places us into our bodies then it's still God's fault if anyone ends up in Hell. Foreknowledge is the same as election, as God in Election knows something and causes man to do it, and foreknowledge God knows something, places man and they still have to do what God knows. Otherwise, God's knowledge is not perfect if man can choose something God did not consider. We know that can't be the case.

Both systems are a mess, I'll tell you, they just don't Work, and not good enough. We can do a bit better, study a bit harder to understand how God operates. Let's look at some scriptures and build us a foundation.

Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
(Psa 139:3)

Here, David says God knows his paths that are around him, behind him and God is acquainted with Davids ways. In other words, God knows what David is coming into, what was behind him and God knows the outcome of all that David is going to do. Sounds a whole lot like Foreknowledge doctrine, and in a sense it is foreknowledge. it's just not foreknowledge though, it's pinpoint accuracy of what David will experience in life and what will be in Davids life at the exact time and place. So, even 20 years from now, it's possible God will know exactly where your going to be and what you will be doing. Still sounds like foreknowledge, but it's actually election and conditional. We will get to that, God is more in control than we think. That is a good thing, we don't want control of our lives as we will see.

Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
(Isa 42:16)

There is only ONE path we are to follow, it's the path of life, God makes this path straight, and shines light on our path of life. This is God's path, his predestination for all of us. God has no paths that lead to death for anyone. In fact he warns us not to take that path, the path of darkness. Even the body of Christ, each member having a function and Part, God puts us in that body as he wills, not as we will. We are created for his workmanship, not our workmanship.

1Co_9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Pro_20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Psa_40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

So, there is only one way man should go, that is God's way, God's path. God's path is designed perfectly and because God designed it, He knows exactly what we will be experiencing while we travel on that path. God knows the snare of the fowler (Devil) he see's them ahead an can direct us around them. On God's path there is light, there is no darkness. God never created a dark path for a man to follow. To follow the wrong path would be unwise, and the unjust follow the dark path. God warns man about being unjust and unwise, Not his will any follow the path of destruction and darkness.

Example:
Jesus meeting up with His Donkey.

Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
(Mat 21:2-5)

Jesus stayed perfectly on the path of the just. He was at the right place, and time for something God caused by the spoken word to come to pass. Had Jesus been somewhere else 100's of miles away at this time, He would have missed that Donkey and colt. That Donkey and colt were spoken by the Word to be at a certain place and time.

Many examples like this in the bible of people being where God said to be and good things happening and people not being where they are suppose to be and bad things happening. David for example should have been out fighting with his men. Instead David is at home in his bunny slippers looking out his Window. If your not where you suppose to be, there is no grace to resist sin, and idle time is deadly. This is why it's so important to obey the Lord, just go, be where your suppose to be. it may not make sense, but it's not up to us to always make sense of things. God has something there for you, but you have to go to it, it just does not come to you.

Man has a choice to stay on God's path, or take their own path. Let me tell you, if your not on the Path that God designed and predestined for you, then it won't work out for you, and even may shorten your time here on Earth.

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die. Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
(Pro 15:10-11)

Hearts

God knows the heart of man. This is why He said He is acquainted with David's way. God knows David has a heart for him. it's not God knowing the end and beginning of a man. God looks at the heart of man.
Psa_44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart

God searches........................... Zero scripture that he foreknows the heart, several that he searches the Heart and knows all things. Your condition now is based on the condition of your heart now.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

The good news is, your heart can change if your heart was on the path of destruction. The deciding factor is not God electing your destruction, or Foreknowledge that you will be destroyed. It's what is in your heart NOW that counts.

Don't Be Like Job!!!

Job_13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

We are not suppose to maintain our own ways. It did not work for Job, it won't work for us. Job was not ready to change, he felt there was nothing he could have done different, and everything was God's fault. We don't want to be like that. We must be quick to listen, slow to speak and follow what direction the Lord gives us.

Long enough for now, want to take this in chunks. I will get to Adam in a bit, but we need a foundation of things because it took me years to put this all together. I had a foreknowledge doctrine that also got in the way of what was actually in scriptures over and over. God searches, God searches the Heart, God knows the Heart, I mean it was right there, but I could not see it right away.

If there is anything I said that needs a scripture to back it, let me know. I wrote several things with scripture in mind but did not look them all up.

Judges this, and be blessed. Let's all get stronger in our Knowledge of our Great Father.

Byfaith said:

Blessings everyone, I am here to break down how God operates, how God deals with us, and What God can and can't do according to scriptures. People have made up Doctrines of election or Foreknowledge to keep the Soverigenty of God, two very different views so that God fits into mans idea of what God should be. One view removes mans responsiblty to be obedient and have faith. If God picks and chooses for us then there is no need for faith, or to be obedient as things will happen anyway as God has planned

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The written word is very hard translate properly without being in person, so I apologize in advance if this sounds sarcastic. Are you a living day Apostle? I mean you know about God more than any other man, preacher or evangelist I have ever met!

Byfaith said:

Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
(Psa 139:3)

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I don't believe any of us can be compared to David!

Byfaith said:

Otherwise, God's knowledge is not perfect if man can choose something God did not consider. We know that can't be the case.

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Yes, God knowledge is perfect, because he considers all things of man because he witnesses them before in the spiritual realm before they happen in the physical realm.

Byfaith said:

The good news is, your heart can change if your heart was on the path of destruction. The deciding factor is not God electing your destruction, or Foreknowledge that you will be destroyed. It's what is in your heart NOW that counts.

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That is so true. As long as you are in the "physical" you still have the free will choice to choose God. If you do it before your physical death, God had the power to put you in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation!

DHC said:

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

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Another good verse that supports what God knew in the future or in advance, he then predestine to be saved!
Here would be a question for anyone who is reading this:
What would make you think that our God, with limitless power, did not ,in effect, accurately design and bring to completion his entire plan of man's salvation, from the beginning to the end and start it in motion at the foundation of the universe? God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent!

RJ said:

The written word is very hard translate properly without being in person, so I apologize in advance if this sounds sarcastic. Are you a living day Apostle? I mean you know about God more than any other man, preacher or evangelist I have ever met!

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Wow, I don't know how to take that. I'll say this, If I do know God very well, know how he operates, Know how He thinks, then I best have a scripture to back up what I say I might know. I want you to judge carefully, just don't take anyone's word on anything. I would like to believe I am telling you correct, but I don't know everything either.

When the Lord told me "How would I know if someone will do that" which was years ago, it stumped me. How the heck the Lord going to tell me he don't know? He is God, he is suppose to know. It took Him years, to piece it together for me. Him speaking to me is not enough. If He did really speak to me, He also needs to back it with scripture.

The foreknowledge Doctrine is not a good doctrine. God see's outside of time is not a scripture. The problem with my understanding was that my understanding of Love was way off. God is Love, it's not that God loves, but is Love. Paul said the Love of God passes our understanding. Paul has got that right.

Part of the problem with foreknowledge doctrine is that God would have to understand your not going to make it and have that thought that you will end up in Hell eventually. It's impossible for Love to think like that. Everyone will make it as God is more than able to help them, show them and get them to see truth.

If God had any foreknowledge of someone not going to make it, then He would have to admit he has no power to help that person.

RJ said:

That is so true. As long as you are in the "physical" you still have the free will choice to choose God. If you do it before your physical death, God had the power to put you in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation!

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The scripture in Greek actually says "FROM" not "BEFORE" there is a big difference there. Prophets were here from the foundation of the World giving scripture according to Jesus. There are scriptures that say "BEFORE" compare them.

RJ said:

I don't believe any of us can be compared to David!

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Right, none of us are David, but the Lord is not treating us any different than David or Jesus. God loves us with the Same love He loved Jesus with, and God also Loved David despite some of David's grievous mistakes.

RJ said:

Yes, God knowledge is perfect, because he considers all things of man because he witnesses them before in the spiritual realm before they happen in the physical realm.

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Right, all things are set up in the realm of the spirit first. God see's the snare of the fowler before us (Psalm 91) and see's the troubles (Temptations) before us to lead us away from the. We need to keep Spiritually minded, not earthly minded by the things we see.

Thank you, just compare scriptures and double check everything. Be blessed.

Byfaith said:

The foreknowledge Doctrine is not a good doctrine.

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You don't believe God has the power to know the future (foreknowledge) of anything and everything as far in the future as he so chooses?

RJ said:

You don't believe God has the power to know the future (foreknowledge) of anything and everything as far in the future as he so chooses?

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Certainly would need a scripture that says that. There are none. That is mans idea of what a god should be. It's not reality, or our Father.
There are tons of scriptures that God declares something, he speaks out his Word and it comes to pass. That is election though as God chooses.

There are also several scriptures the denote God being able to know something instantly, even know the number of them.

Jer_17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Psa_44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Zep_1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

2Ch_16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

There is 4 more scriptures RJ, the Lord searches, he looks at the heart. it's not some foreknowledge else He would not have told us he searches. He has to look RJ, He tries the reigns of the Heart. Now if the Lord tells us over and over that He looks at the current state of the heart, and not by some fortune telling ability, It's best we take his word on that, right?

If Scripture does not change what we believe, we are in Trouble.

RJ said:

With your knowledge of God, backed up by scripture, will please accurately interpret Romans 8:29 for us?

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Don't use that one RJ, bad one to use trying to prove election or foreknowledge. Use the one in Eph. Who is Paul speaking about in Romans 8:29? What is the natural branch?

Find the one in Eph, I'll explain that one. Eph starts with Who he foreknown, he did predestine to be in His son. trying to help with dinner.

Blessings.

Byfaith said:

Certainly would need a scripture that says that. There are none. That is mans idea of what a god should be. It's not reality, or our Father.

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Maybe your Father but not mine, because we worship two entirely different Gods! I worship one that is All Powerful and unlimited in anything. You, on the other hand, do not worship the same all powerful God and choose to put limits on him, when he is limitless!
No, I am afraid you don't know my God, you know someone else!

Byfaith said:

Job_13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

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Just side note, not to detract from the post as whole too much:


I believe that Job was saying that he is not going to back down from maintaining his position that he was walking upright and righteously before God. His accusers told him he must have done something wrong, that God would never do this to a person unless they had sinned against him greatly. Job wouldn't back down and agree with them, he stood firm in the fact that he had walked uprightly before God. God's own words earlier in the chapter support this, though Job didn't know about these things until afterwords.

As we see later, no man stands before God justified. Even all of Jobs own righteousness was as filthy rags. But, Job was correct in saying that all the evil that came upon him was not because he was full of secret sin as was proposed by the others, but because of the fact that Satan was being shown up by God, something beyond all their understanding. Job was right to maintain his stance. It was more than a bit arrogant of him to think he could actually stand before the God of the universe and actually show Him up though. That idea is quite laughable, and obviously didn't work out so well for Job. Job was wrong to think he could argue with the Lord even though he was right about the fact that all these things did not come upon him because of faults of his own. Job was right that his ways were indeed upright though.

I hope I made that make sense? Meh,

Blessings!

Travis

Byfaith said:

Don't use that one RJ, bad one to use trying to prove election or foreknowledge

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Oh, really! Who gives you the authority to pick and choose scripture?
I guess you choose not pay any attention to these foreknowledge scriptures:
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Isaiah 42: 9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you -
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Should I list the other 54 foreknowledge verses?

RJ said:

Oh, really! Who gives you the authority to pick and choose scripture?
I guess you choose not pay any attention to these foreknowledge scriptures:
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Isaiah 42: 9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you -
Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Should I list the other 54 foreknowledge verses?

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RJ....

Why not give the man room to speak? If I had something I thought the Lord had shown me, I would sure want people to at least hear me out in full before they rejected me.

Let him finish?

Blessings,

Travis

Travis said:

Why not give the man room to speak? If I had something I thought the Lord had shown me, I would sure want people to at least hear me out in full before they rejected me.
Let him finish?

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Travis
Respectfully, your are commenting on this one post. There is much more than this one post. He told all of us, he knows God very well and supports it with scripture. Then he openly rebukes a passage because it does not fit his well established narrative. When referring to scripture, which eludes to be somewhat of an authority , he then says he does not use one presented to him. I thought we were to use all scripture! He has established his point that he has a right to, but, he wants scripture, then he says he conveniently doesn't use that one! Read on, he makes bolder statements about God later on.....guess I should say nothing about that either?....I am asking, what would you have me do?

RJ said:

I am asking, what would you have me do?

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Im just saying we should perhaps give the man some space until he has time to fully develop what he has to say. I have some issues with assumptions he has made this far. But, he is at least presenting himself well and I can understand and follow along with what he is saying. Who knows maybe we will learn something by what he has to say. I'm not saying I agree with him, only that he at least deserves a little respect.

Blessings,

Travis

RJ said:

Another good verse that supports what God knew in the future or in advance, he then predestine to be saved!
Here would be a question for anyone who is reading this:
What would make you think that our God, with limitless power, did not ,in effect, accurately design and bring to completion his entire plan of man's salvation, from the beginning to the end and start it in motion at the foundation of the universe? God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent!

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Hello RJ.

Although I agree with your overview of God, i.e., His unlimited power, knowledge and love.

I must draw your attention back to the question I asked in the previous post, regarding which meaning
of the word 'foreknew' you will choose to apply to both instances of the word 'foreknew' in the letter
to the Romans.

Since you opted for the second meaning, i.e., God knows before the event has occurred, that a person
will believe at some future time, for both these occurrences.

We will proceed to apply this second meaning to the text (Romans 11:2) and see what we come up with.

The verse from the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He 'foreknew'...

Now the verse with the second meaning applied instead of the word 'foreknew'.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He knows will believe in the future...

Well RJ, that second choice does not fit the text, the first meaning is of course the correct choice.

Here read the same verse with the first meaning applied.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He formerly knew...

The first meaning is actually the defintion according to Strongs, alas, a trick question RJ.

Now when we read the intial text (Romans 8:29) in context, and with the first meaning applied,
the verse reads.

Romans 8:29
For those God previously knew, the Jews, he also predestined to be conformed to the image...

Only the first meaning smoothly fits both occurrences, the second meaning does not.

The first meaning exactly fits the context of the letter to the Romans.

The first meaning is the dictionary definition.

DHC said:

Hello RJ.

Although I agree with your overview of God, i.e., His unlimited power, knowledge and love.

I must draw your attention back to the question I asked in the previous post, regarding which meaning
of the word 'foreknew' you will choose to apply to both instances of the word 'foreknew' in the letter
to the Romans.

Since you opted for the second meaning, i.e., God knows before the event has occurred, that a person
will believe at some future time, for both these occurrences.

We will proceed to apply this second meaning to the text (Romans 11:2) and see what we come up with.

The verse from the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He 'foreknew'...

Now the verse with the second meaning applied instead of the word 'foreknew'.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He knows will believe in the future...

Well RJ, that second choice does not fit the text, the first meaning is of course the correct choice.

Here read the same verse with the first meaning applied.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He formerly knew...

The first meaning is actually the defintion according to Strongs, alas, a trick question RJ.

Now when we read the intial text (Romans 8:29) in context, and with the first meaning applied,
the verse reads.

Romans 8:29
For those God previously knew, the Jews, he also predestined to be conformed to the image...

Only the first meaning smoothly fits both occurrences, the second meaning does not.

The first meaning exactly fits the context of the letter to the Romans.

The first meaning is the dictionary definition.

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OK DHC, you exhaust me. All I can say and stand by is my God is all powerful and capable of ANYTHING! perhaps not so to you...God Bless!

Greetings,

May I say that because God is, does not mean we can or that we should try to put Him in a box and certainly not into a Calvinist one.
If you apply the reasoning to yourself that you dress others with you look much the same.

Bless you ....><>