RJ
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The Spirit departs?
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Dovegiven
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I know not to take that as a 'one-liner' standalone formula for salvation without learning what it means to call upon the name of the Lord.
Would you think God would be satisfied for a person to be eternally saved upon saying upwards "JESUS"? Many do just that, but lack the full gospel requirements.
So why quote that verse alone as though it is all in all?
Those people listening to Peter at Pentecost didn't know what it meant. Peter amplified it's meaning to include more specific steps.
Acts 2:37-41 (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Then come the commandments in the epistles. I like Peter's, teach them heavily to men in abuse rehab classes. Both 1 and 2 Peter give a much more amplified understanding of our life of righteousness, a matter of instant sanctification and progressive sanctification that marks us as true believers. For instance we shall never fall if obeying 2 Peter 1:4-11 (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Actually it takes understanding of the whole New Testament to comprehend what's in those words of Acts 2:21, which stands as a sort of title to a document devoted to the subject of the title.
Dovegiven
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I forgot how many commandments are in the New Testament, but every teaching of Jesus is equal to commandment, and almost every instruction from the apostles, some being "speaking as a man" preferences, stand as commandments authorized by the Lord. They are not "divine suggestions", but amount to what God requires of his children. some folks object, but it's all part of what it means to carry our cross following Jesus. All Christians still alive must be about overcoming sin. God's plan called "grace" provides all we need to get on with gaining godliness and the other attributes of the many passages like 2 Peter 1:4-11. If we are indeed sealed with the Holy Spirit it will be our delight to learn and practice to be just like Jesus in every way he commanded. There ought not be any testimony over" what a worm we are", "just an old sinner saved by grace". 'Ya never know what God might decide to do to us". If what God meant to be in us, we will testify of ourselves what Jesus and the apostles testified of themselves, becasue we know who were are, not living out what we used to be.
Do you know who you are? Is it what you identify with from the past, reaching into pre-born again days? All Christians were like the heathen, sinners not knowing any other way to be, servants of various moral codes, afraid of civil punishment to the point of trembling to be "good", or be really bad, or possibly worse, being somewhere in between, deceiving ourselves and blaming it all on the Devil. The comedian Flip Wilson would say "The Devil made me do it." and we laughed in those days because he hit the nail on the head, we all mostly blamed the Devil, not admitting our own decisions convict us, so he found a lucrative market among Christians. But in Christ we are accounted righteous, and had better be found righteous by reckoning we are, found without spot or wrinkle, when standing before the Father in that great Day of the Lord. If not, we are found once again entangled in the former state of being.
Do you know who you are? Is it what you identify with from the past, reaching into pre-born again days? All Christians were like the heathen, sinners not knowing any other way to be, servants of various moral codes, afraid of civil punishment to the point of trembling to be "good", or be really bad, or possibly worse, being somewhere in between, deceiving ourselves and blaming it all on the Devil. The comedian Flip Wilson would say "The Devil made me do it." and we laughed in those days because he hit the nail on the head, we all mostly blamed the Devil, not admitting our own decisions convict us, so he found a lucrative market among Christians. But in Christ we are accounted righteous, and had better be found righteous by reckoning we are, found without spot or wrinkle, when standing before the Father in that great Day of the Lord. If not, we are found once again entangled in the former state of being.
Dovegiven
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My last citation got left off somehow, my bad.
Hebrews 12:14-29 (KJV)
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:14-29 (KJV)
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
DHC
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Hello Dovegiven.
I appreciate Dovegiven that you responded to my post and to my question. To make our conversation
less laborious Dovegiven, I will reprint my question and follow that with your reply, which should make
the process easier for us both.
I asked whether you believed that God will save all those who call on the name of Jesus as the scripture
states below.
Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
You responded with the following statement.
The line quoted above from the book of Acts is a very clear declaration of the truth. The truth is simply delivered
to us Dovegiven, that if you believe in Jesus Christ then you are saved, this is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You called this quote of mine a 'one liner', this indicates that you may have not been presented with the purity and
the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You then stated the following.
I see no additional requirements in your quotation above Dovegiven. This is not a fuller Gospel at all, all I see is the
Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is the crucial part of your quotation, 'in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins'.
Unless Dovegiven, you are going to proceed with some other claim, such as a true repentance enables the true remission of sin?
Is this the fuller Gospel that you received?
Or you might be saying, and I am not really sure, a perfect repentance will require no real reconciliation by Christ, because
you have achieved perfection already?
What are you trying to say at this point Dovegiven, you need to spell out precisely the Gospel you have received?
Please explain what it is that you believe, and how are you saved?
TaylorDonBarret
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"Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved"
OK, but what does it mean?
Does it mean that everyone who one time believed?
Or does it mean "He who endures to the end will be saved."
Even demons believe.
Here we see a case of someone who not only believed, but they performed great miracles in Jesus name! Casting out demons and the like!
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" Matthew 7:22-23
Obviously, believing that Jesus is Lord is not enough.
So what does it mean when it says "everyone who believes" and "everyone who calls on the name" ... ?
I think if you understand these verses in a particular way, the rest of the bible makes more sense. Because it does not hold weight to say that everyone who admits the basic facts will be saved, thats just not biblical. But if we understand these verses by understanding that biblical belief includes love, and love includes trust, and trust includes obedience; then we understand more fully what it means that "everyone who believes/calls on the Lord shall be saved". But, these promises should not be thought to apply to anyone who just does this thing but once, but only to those who "endure to the end".
OK, but what does it mean?
Does it mean that everyone who one time believed?
Or does it mean "He who endures to the end will be saved."
Even demons believe.
Here we see a case of someone who not only believed, but they performed great miracles in Jesus name! Casting out demons and the like!
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" Matthew 7:22-23
Obviously, believing that Jesus is Lord is not enough.
So what does it mean when it says "everyone who believes" and "everyone who calls on the name" ... ?
I think if you understand these verses in a particular way, the rest of the bible makes more sense. Because it does not hold weight to say that everyone who admits the basic facts will be saved, thats just not biblical. But if we understand these verses by understanding that biblical belief includes love, and love includes trust, and trust includes obedience; then we understand more fully what it means that "everyone who believes/calls on the Lord shall be saved". But, these promises should not be thought to apply to anyone who just does this thing but once, but only to those who "endure to the end".
RJ
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Romans 10: 8-13 explains it better!
TaylorDonBarret
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those people who cast out demons in Jesus name, they call Jesus Lord, and they work miracles in His name. those people obviously meet one of the requirements, that is, they confess Jesus is Lord with their mouth. the other requirement? believing in their heart that God raised Him from the dead? do you not think that such a person as one who has actually performed miracles and cast out demons by the power of Jesus name does not believe, by the mere fact that they witness His power, that God raised Him from the dead?
for me... this is how i see it. a few verses declare that all who believe will be saved. a few other verses declare that there will be those who believe, yet do not repent, and therefore will not enter Heaven. so, i take it that while faith is the main thing, faith alone will not merit God's grace. when the bible says that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, i believe it means all who love, trust, and obey the Lord.
even the demons believe
TaylorDonBarret
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“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
Who is Jesus talking to here in Revelation? What is he telling them? That their faith is enough? Or is Jesus telling them to repent, because their deeds are unfinished?
And what does Jesus day to the lukewarm?
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."
And again Jesus says
"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19
Who is Jesus talking to here in Revelation? What is he telling them? That their faith is enough? Or is Jesus telling them to repent, because their deeds are unfinished?
And what does Jesus day to the lukewarm?
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."
And again Jesus says
"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19
RJ
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- The bottom line is that you are either Born Again or you're not!
- I know that I am Born Again and I will leave it up to God about those who say "Lord-Lord" or anyone else who call themselves a Christian!
TaylorDonBarret
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lets not get too caught up in doctrines made by men. lets just focus on what the bible says.
Jesus says we must be born again to be saved.
But He does not say that anyone who have ever been born again will be saved.
He didnt say you can only be born again one time either.
Is it possible that a person could be born again, and then backslide, and then be born again, and then backslide, etc?
i dont see anything in the bible to say otherwise, and i know many people do have that experience in their life.
If you look at those passages from revelation that i just quoted up top, you will see Jesus talking to churches, people of faith, and telling them that their deeds are insufficient and must be repented of or else they will not be saved.
Jesus says we must be born again to be saved.
But He does not say that anyone who have ever been born again will be saved.
He didnt say you can only be born again one time either.
Is it possible that a person could be born again, and then backslide, and then be born again, and then backslide, etc?
i dont see anything in the bible to say otherwise, and i know many people do have that experience in their life.
If you look at those passages from revelation that i just quoted up top, you will see Jesus talking to churches, people of faith, and telling them that their deeds are insufficient and must be repented of or else they will not be saved.
RJ
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That is not true! Being "Born Again" is the same as the process of the Holy Spirit indwelling in you at salvation! Please show me anywhere in scriptures where God will pull his Holy Spirit out of you every time you backslide?
TaylorDonBarret
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show me one time where it says He will leave His Spirit in you while you live like the devil!
lol
lol
RJ
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O.K., I am done! You have your beliefs /understandings and I have my mine on this subject, we'll just have to agree to disagree! God Bless you and your continued spiritual growth!
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Matthew 7 KJV
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Those who are walking in the broad way, are walking in the broad way because they have never entered through the strait gate.
If you are not walking in the narrow way, its because you never entered the strait gate.
We can fall into sin and deception and all manner of nonsense. But if our life is totally defined by carnality, its because we are just that, carnal, and we do not have the spirit of God living in us. If you look like the world, smell like the world, talk like the world, its probably because you are of the world. If you are reading this, and you this is true of you, and it bothers you, there is still hope for you. If it doesn't I have very little hope for you.
Luke 14
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
But, finally, I like this passage of scripture:
John 10
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Travis
TaylorDonBarret
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I t I think if you go into the book of Revelation and if you read the message Jesus has for the churches, first he is not talking about an unbeliever, but when talking to the churches he is talking to believers, and the churches that their deeds are not complete, they are neither hot nor cold, and that they must repent, or else he will come take their lampstand. so what does that mean? I think it means if you believe but do not have repentance, if you have been born again but fail to produce fruit, if you are a true member of the body of Christ but fail to act like one, then Jesus warns you that if you do not repent he will indeed take his spirit from you.
RJ
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Nothing in scripture that supports this! In fact if you study the term "Luke Warm" he is talking about Christians in name only.
Neither cold nor hot but Luke-warm! Cold would be a non-believer like an Agnostic or Atheist. The inference here is it is better to be cold than Luke-warm. A person who is Luke-warm mocks God!
TaylorDonBarret
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Lets let the scriptures interpret themselves. A church is a body of believers. Jesus is addressing a church, so He is addressing a body of believers. He does not say they lack Faith, He says they lack good deeds. Faith is a given in this context. Faith does not equal repentance, nor is it always accompanied by it. They are two different things.
RJ
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Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
James 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
- Hmmm, are you saying that churches only have believers in them?:laugh:
- After salvation, if you either lack faith or works, you faith is dead and you were not saved in the first place!
