Brother Paul,

re: "Sure 1 Samuel 30...Will that suffice?"


Yes, but only if you can explain how at least a portion of each one of the 3 daytimes and at least a portion of each one of the 3 nighttimes could not possibly have been included in the 3 calendar days.

That demand makes no logical sense...

You asked for documentation...I gave you documentation from two reliable sources that demonstrate that any part of day 1 can count as day 1, and any part of day three can count as day three (as in an ON THE THIRD DAY resurrection). How many days is three?

I know nothing of a sixth day resurrection replacement myth, but I have heard of a fourth day theory (if one were to assume "after" a three literal days and three literal nights as in 72 hours). So I am not sure if you think I am disagreeing with you but I am just stating the facts. For example, He died just before sundown...if a full 72 hours He would have risen just before sundown...which makes no sense (unless all His prophetic mentions and all resurrection accounts are wrong)...Just say'n

Brother Paul

Brother Paul,

re: "That demand makes no logical sense..."

I agree, but that is the only way for 6th day crucifixion adherents to get around Matthew 12:40.
　



re: " You asked for documentation...I gave you documentation from two reliable sources that demonstrate that any part of day 1 can count as day 1, and any part of day three can count as day three..."

I agree, and in fact we use the phrase the same way today. BUT, the Messiah didn't just say 3 days in Matthew 12:40 - he specifically stipulated three days and three nights. As I said in post #94, the first century Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree with, but when a specific number of nights is added to a specific number of days to yield the phrase "3 days AND 3 nights", it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has yet presented any historical documentation that a phrase stating "x" days AND "x" nights￾ was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English - at least a part of each daytime and at least a part of each nightime.
　



re: " I know nothing of a sixth day resurrection replacement myth..."

I don't know what that means. What is a replacement myth?
　



re: "So I am not sure if you think I am disagreeing with you..."

That is what I am thinking. I'm saying that you haven't provided the information that I requested and you seem to be saying that you have.



re: "...if a full 72 hours He would have risen just before sundown...which makes no sense ..."

I've said nothing about 72 hours being required.

Rstrats
You said “No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has yet presented any historical documentation that a phrase stating "x" days AND "x" nights￾ was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English - at least a part of each daytime and at least a part of each nightime. “

But I never said this was something UNIQUE to 1st century Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek in fact classical Greek from before this time also uses this “reckoning” in some places but to avoid this being the conclusion, I gave the example from 1 Samuel 30 (see verse 12 for the specific phrase) but we know it was on the third day that he went in to see Abiathar, and also from the law of circumcision where day one can be and is counted as day one only being part of a day.

All one needs to do is extrapolate the time…part of day 1 and part of day 3 is equal to the phrase 3 days and 3 nights…after 8 days or on the 8th day is still 8days when only including also a part of the 1st day so a partial first day and on the 8th day = 8days in this cultural understanding of this usage (though incomprehensible in terms of the rules of modern English grammar)…but no one will probably not find documentation that specifically says this specific phrase was unique to Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek in the 1st century…since it was not at all unique to that time but rather a cultural norm that the hearer understood but we lose in the translation.

Did you know that even to this day in the Middle East if our meeting is at 10 you are not early at quarter of nor late at quarter past? In our modern western culture you could get fired for such a thing! They did not conceptualize time the same as we do…nor did they linguistically express such things as we would. If in their time they read “Step on it” they would begin looking at the ground but here and in England the hearer would go faster…

I don't know what that means. What is a replacement myth?

A replacement myth is when someone against the actual facts we have (in this case everything Jesus said about His resurrection timing and against all resurrection accounts, eyewitness of otherwise) makes up an interpretation or story insisting its possibility when no such possibility can be deduced from the actual facts that we do have (thus it is a myth, as in a made up story, to replace a factual reality and expecting people to believe it).

I'm saying that you haven't provided the information that I requested and you seem to be saying that you have.

I gave you two reliable sources…what will it take in your definition of documentation? Documents saying this phrase was idiomatic in Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek in the 1st century? There is none, because it was not, so to insist on specifically this documentation makes the request a strawman…

I've said nothing about 72 hours being required.

No! You have not…but if a literal interpretation of His rising after three days and three nights (a day = 12 hours, a night = 12 hours, then three days and three nights =72 hours…) then how long do you say a literal 3 days and 3 nights would indicate? Yet we know He was crucified on day 1 and rose on the third day according to scripture, and the testimony of the earliest church writers.

Peace be unto you...

Brother Paul

re: "...what will it take in your definition of documentation?"

Simply what I requested in the OP.


Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

I should also add to the OP: "...and who thinks that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb..."

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language, and who thinks that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb, may know of some writing as requested in the OP.

grandmamary1219,

re: "I don't see your point in arguing this!"


I didn't start this topic for the purpose of arguing anything. I am merely looking for some writing as requested in the OP. Unfortunately, I've let myself get drawn off topic over non-responsive comments.

BTW, are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

grandmamary1219,

You have a question directed to you in post #110.

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language, and who thinks that the 'heart of the earth' is referring to the tomb, may know of some writing as requested in the OP.

What is the whole point of all this? Why does it change anything? What are you trying to prove here? Forget about Matt 12:40; if it bothers you.
At least 8 other verses say it was the third day. A day can be 12 hours, a night can be 12 hours. Together they can be 24 hours.

Matt 12:40; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah 1:17; And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

Mark 8:31; And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John 2:19; Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Matt 16:21; From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Matt 17:22; And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men;
Matt 17:23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

Luke 18:32; "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon,
Luke 18:33; and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again."

Luke 24:6; "He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
Luke 24:7; saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."

Acts 10:39; "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Acts 10:40; "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

It doesn't look like anyone here on TalkJesus other than yourself thinks it was anything besides 3 days.
Even "IF" Jesus was dead 6 days (I don't believe he was but..) it wouldn't be the crucifixion that happened 6 days later. It would be the resurrection.

B-A-C,
re: "What is the whole point of all this?...What are you trying to prove here?"

The tag line at the beginning of this forum says that this is a "Bible forum for bible studies". I think that I am complying with the spirit of this forum in trying to "study" the meaning of a statement in a particular verse (Matthew 12:40) which is in the Bible.

The Messiah said that he would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights. However, a number of folks who think that the heart of the earth refers to the tomb say that He actually meant that it would only be for 2 nights. They many times try to explain this by saying that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I would think that in order for them to be able to say that, that they would have to know of writings from the period that absolutely show that it was common to refer to something that way, e.g., that a forecasted daytime and/or night time didn't have to include at least a part of the daytime and at least of part of the night time.



re: "At least 8 other verses say it was the third day."

I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of that comment to the OP. I wonder if you might explain?
And just as an aside, 2 verses say "after 3 days".



re: "It doesn't look like anyone here on TalkJesus other than yourself thinks it was anything besides 3 days."

What have I said that makes you think that I think otherwise?

Luke 24:22; "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning,
Luke 24:23; and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive.

He may have been "dead" for 3 nights. In any case he wasn't on the morning of the 4th day.

I looked into this awhile back , go to the OT see when the lamb was to be sacrificed for the Passover
This was a Sabbath day , which fell on the 14 day of the month, but this lamb was to be set aside on the10 day
When you look into the passover you will understand this was a picture, of what was to come.
Well make this short in the month of Abib on the 10 day set aside a lamb , and on the 14 day in the evening kill it. In the year our Lord
got crucified, the 10 would have been Sunday, the day he came into Jerusalem.
The 14 day would have been Thursday
Friday would have been a Sabbath day, which really began at Thursday at dark till Friday at dark
Then the Saturday Sabbath, begin Friday at dark till Saturday at dark
Then Sunday was the first day of the week
So Jesus got sacrificed, on the 14 Thursday before dark, because the Sabbath begin at dark till Friday at dark, then the Saturday Sabbath begin Friday at dark till Saturday at dark, then Mary rose the first day of the week before day light, early that morning.
So he was in the grave
Thursday night = 1 night
Friday = 1 day
Friday night= 2 nights
Saturday =2 days
Saturday night= 3 nights
Sunday = 3 days

Look in Exodus12 if you study this close it is amazing how God ordained this

Oh this why Mary had to wait till the first day of the week, because 2 Sabbath's fell together

norapture,
re: "...Mary rose the first day of the week before day light, early that morning."
Huh?
Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, you probably don't know of any writing.

No I don't study outside the scripture's
I just figure if God wants me to know anything about scripture, then he will show me by his Spirit, in the sripture