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No Human has Gone to Heaven but Jesus!

My line makes the point that unless you have a rational and working brain, you should probably refrain from teaching others.

------------------

Imagine telling Elon Musk to stop going to the moon and trying to go to Mars because the bible says God wants us to stay on earth. Imagine teaching that humans with high intelligence will for the next centillion years be unable to leave the earth and certainly never visit heaven, God's home. The God that died for them....

If you and @Rhema don't understand how idiotic this belief is, that speaks volumes!! :rolleyes:
 

Grabbing straws Butch. You are unable to give a direct response to a logical argument as you know it will make you sound silly.

Example, No KingJ, mankind has never been to the moon. Or, no KingJ it is perfectly rational for a bride to NOT expect to be taken to her bridegrooms house after the honeymoon.

I don't blame you three for being unable to give rational and logical rebuttals for this silly belief you hold to. It is like trying to defend a turd.

--------------------------------------

I was puzzled at how and why anyone would hold to such a silly belief. Then after some studying I found that it is part and parcel of an annihilationist belief. The reasons given do not really incriminate the believer. The only space that any 'damage' is done is on the young and weak. So this belief is kind of like a turd covered in chocolate sauce.

Imagine a sermon from the pulpit that goes like this - We must lay our lives down for Jesus, give Him all we have Matt 16:24, He is our bridegroom and we are His bride. But, please note that we cannot and must not ever expect Him to take us to His home. He does not love us that much.

I am curious, when do you break the bad news to new converts?
 
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Grabbing straws Butch. You are unable to give a direct response to a logical argument as you know it will make you sound silly.

Example, No KingJ, mankind has never been to the moon. Or, no KingJ it is perfectly rational for a bride to NOT expect to be taken to her bridegrooms house after the honeymoon.

I don't blame you three for being unable to give rational and logical rebuttals for this silly belief you hold to. It is like trying to defend a turd

I am curious, when do you break the bad news to new converts?
Maybe if you could read the Bible you might understand that Jesus is coming back to turn destroy all unbelievers like yourself and to renew and turn Earth into his EARTHLY KINGDOM you wouldn't sneer like a child?
But you hero Satan the ruler of the world at present has blinded your eyes.
Here is what Paul wrote about you and Satan:
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 
Here is what Paul wrote about you and Satan:
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Note the key word in that verse is 'unbeliever'. As someone who believes Jesus is Lord, I qualify as a believer. You three however, do not believe Jesus is Lord as you don't believe in the trinity. I find it interesting that you accuse me and yet it is you who does not believe.....:rolleyes:

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now, a pertinent verse that you need to mindful of, is a terribly harsh warning to those who stumble the weak in Christ.

Matt 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
 
Maybe if you could read the Bible you might understand that Jesus is coming back to turn destroy all unbelievers like yourself and to renew and turn Earth into his EARTHLY KINGDOM

In this new earth, is God going to stop me from travelling to Mars?

you wouldn't sneer like a child?

Can't help it, it is hilarious. Imagine meeting the love of your life and not welcoming them into your house :D.

-------------------------

You three cherry pick and construe scripture biasedly as you need this theory to tie up to and support another heresy, annihilationism.

A belief that further incriminates God as it suggests that there is no such thing as true free will.
 
In this new earth, is God going to stop me from travelling to Mars?



Can't help it, it is hilarious. Imagine meeting the love of your life and not welcoming them into your house :D.

-
You need to grow up instead of sneering like a child at Bible truth.
You won't survive to meet Jesus.
 
Grabbing straws Butch. You are unable to give a direct response to a logical argument as you know it will make you sound silly.

Example, No KingJ, mankind has never been to the moon. Or, no KingJ it is perfectly rational for a bride to NOT expect to be taken to her bridegrooms house after the honeymoon.

I don't blame you three for being unable to give rational and logical rebuttals for this silly belief you hold to. It is like trying to defend a turd.

--------------------------------------

I was puzzled at how and why anyone would hold to such a silly belief. Then after some studying I found that it is part and parcel of an annihilationist belief. The reasons given do not really incriminate the believer. The only space that any 'damage' is done is on the young and weak. So this belief is kind of like a turd covered in chocolate sauce.

Imagine a sermon from the pulpit that goes like this - We must lay our lives down for Jesus, give Him all we have Matt 16:24, He is our bridegroom and we are His bride. But, please note that we cannot and must not ever expect Him to take us to His home. He does not love us that much.

I am curious, when do you break the bad news to new converts?
Actually, it's more like, Kingj the sky is green because of the green wavelengths of light bouncing off of particles in atmosphere. Please prove that the particles aren't reflecting the light. I await your explanation.

As has been pointed out sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times, your premise is wrong, invalid, incorrect, flawed... You said, "Imagine a sermon from the pulpit that goes like this - We must lay our lives down for Jesus, give Him all we have Matt 16:24, He is our bridegroom and we are His bride. But, please note that we cannot and must not ever expect Him to take us to His home. He does not love us that much."

The reason people don't go is because the Bridegroom is coming here. Your premise is flawed.

What part of this is difficult to understand?

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. King James, Jn 13:31–33.
 
@KingJ

If people go to Heaven when they die, what is the point of the Resurrection?
most people have the idea a 'soul' flies off to heaven while the body rots in the grave?
Then at resurrection the 'soul gets a new body?
Crazy idea as all thoughts perish so a soul can't survive?
No matter what Bible you and I point out they have cognitive dissonance and are blind.
 
most people have the idea a 'soul' flies off to heaven while the body rots in the grave?
Then at resurrection the 'soul gets a new body?
Crazy idea as all thoughts perish so a soul can't survive?
No matter what Bible you and I point out they have cognitive dissonance and are blind.
One has to wonder, if the soul flies off to Heaven then it obvioulsy doesn't need the body. That begs the question of the resurrection. Why? I don't think they have a good answer for that.
 
Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dad fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'
I hope I don’t go to hell because earth is already like hell
 
Actually, it's more like, Kingj the sky is green because of the green wavelengths of light bouncing off of particles in atmosphere. Please prove that the particles aren't reflecting the light. I await your explanation.

As has been pointed out sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times, your premise is wrong, invalid, incorrect, flawed... You said, "Imagine a sermon from the pulpit that goes like this - We must lay our lives down for Jesus, give Him all we have Matt 16:24, He is our bridegroom and we are His bride. But, please note that we cannot and must not ever expect Him to take us to His home. He does not love us that much."

The reason people don't go is because the Bridegroom is coming here. Your premise is flawed.

You edit the premise just so that you can state 'your premise is flawed'.

One premise is that a bride belongs with the bridegroom. Where He is, we will be also. Another is that it is illogical for a God who loves us to not want to be with us and welcome us into His home.

As such three things become clear.

1. Current location - heaven.

I gave scriptures in post # 29 that make it clear that He is in heaven and we go to be with Him in heaven if we die.

2. Location during the millennium

Per your scripture and many others, during this period we reign with Him on earth.

3. Location after millennium

There is scripture that mentions the new Jerusalem coming down and it being the capital of heaven. Rev 22 speaks to God bringing His throne down to earth.

As such I only have the following disagreements with you. 1. Current location = heaven = we go to heaven now if we die and 2. Just because God's throne will be on earth does not mean He will stop us from vacationing for the summer on Pluto.

What part of this is difficult to understand?

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. King James, Jn 13:31–33.

You are missing context here.

Jesus is talking to Jews that walked with him, touched him, would see Him raised from the dead. They would desire to visit Him and keep in contact. Physical contact. Jesus made the point that they cannot come to heaven, right now. They need to die first. Please re-read your scripture and my post # 29 without a bias.

We see that Jesus said to the criminal next to him on the cross, as he was going to die, He would meet Him in paradise.

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.

------------------------

You guys really need to stop cherry picking scripture. I never realised your typical annihilationist believer had to cherry pick and remove so many scriptures to arrive at their belief. I must thank you all for teaching me that this belief is a bigger heresy than I ever realised.
 
Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dad fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'
How do you account
For the 24 elders
In the book of Revelation
They're not in their graves
And they're around the throne
Before the first or
Second Resurrection.

How do you count for
The two witnesses
In the book of Revelation
That ascended up into heaven?

Your theology is in error.
 
How do you account
For the 24 elders
In the book of Revelation
They're not in their graves
And they're around the throne
Before the first or
Second Resurrection.

How do you count for
The two witnesses
In the book of Revelation
That ascended up into heaven?

Your theology is in error.
John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
 
Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dad fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'

I would offer to begin with corrupted dying flesh and blood could never enter the new heavens and earth. It returns to dust or clay. The life of the flesh is in the blood but there can be no life without the Holy Spirit .it must be poured out to show spiritual life was given.

No dead sacrifices

David like all born again sons of God was used to demonstrate beforehand the invisible work of the Holy Father Christ who crushes the head of the serpent.

The dead asleep. Not dead never to rise

Living sacrifice . by his wounds we are healed. The dead have no power

The shortest verse ;"Jesus wept" at their lack of spiritual understanding

John 11:3;Jesus wept.

Two different parables. two different purposes. Three days and nights for Jesus and four days for Lazarus.

The Father kept the body of the Son of man Jesus and Lazarus from corrupting to the point of no return. A Living sacrifice by his wounds we are healed.

It's why a tomb above ground and not a grave (no oxygen)

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Suffering); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.( Dead to never rise)

The work as the promised outward demonstration of the Father with Son ended when the Father removed the grave clothes and rolled back the stone. Three days and night, three denoting the end of a mater

Lazarus four days. Four represents trial of suffering.

This time our Holy Father had the disciples remove the grave clothes and roll back the stone.to show our part . .a sign to the unbelieving world.

Mark 16:3-5;And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?;And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.


John 11:39-44Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.;Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?;Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.;And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.;And he that was dead (asleep) came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go
 
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I completely agree and believe with the statement that no one has ever gone to heaven - except the Lord Jesus Christ and himself alone.. him alone, has ascended up into heaven.


but.... I do understand that many Christians do believe that today there are people already in heaven at this very moment and I understand their faith and would like to discuss this as much as possible.....


please consider my perspective from a scripture standpoint and allow me to mention a few highlights from the Bible


could it be that the the Souls Under The Altar are like Abel , by faith Abel was righteous and Able being dead yet speaketh. - Gen 4:10 - The voice of Abel’s blood cried out unto God from the ground.

The souls under the Altar are a Symbolic Of souls who are waiting the resurrection. And God gives their souls white robes commanding them that they should rest / SLEEP - until their fellow brothers are killed also.


They wait for the judgment day when the Book Of Life opens...... this is what I believe and understand other who disagree., also, when we see the Scriptures that say - no one has ever ascended up into heaven - except the Lord Jesus Christ - - this is also confirmed by other passages as we see here below, ..........explaining Jesus


Jesus us the firstborn of the dead .......when we see the Scriptures mentioning Jesus as the " Firstborn "

1. the Firstborn of the dead
2. the Firstborn of the Church
3. the Firstborn among many brethren

Rom 8:29 .......we are known to be..... predestinated........ to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

many Christians believers look to passages mentioning - Enoch, Elijah and Souls Under The Altar who seem like they went up to heaven to be with the Lord, I understand why they believe this and it is something worth studying.

I personally do not believe that anyone has gone to heaven yet and that no one has ever gone to heaven - except the Lord Jesus Christ


we see here in - Rev 6:11
:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,

until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God is giving the martyrs who have died a white robe but they are symbolically " Under The Altar Of Sacrifice "
they are crying out in their sleep and death and God is saying to continue to sleep / ......rest a little longer .......

Also.....


Roman Catholics point to Elijah who was taken upward in a whirlwind

2Ki 2:11 ....... there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

This could be a problem when they make the claim, that Elijah was taken up to heaven to be with God, because
the bible clearly shows that the followers of Elijah did not believe that he had ascended up into heaven to be with God.

In fact in -
2 Kings 2:16 it explains what happened to Eljah.

In verse - :16 they stated “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.”

They believed that he was only taken up toward the heavens and relocated to a different location.

Also, we finally see that Obadiah the governor spoke to " ELIJAH HIMSELF " and they both knew beforehand that God was going to be taken to take Elijah to another location / another place - Obadiah also stated that he had absolutely no idea where God was going to RELOCATING Elijah. ..... there was no claim that Elijah was going to go to be relocated in heaven to be with God..


In fact in 1 Kings 18:11-12 he stated....

:11-12 And now you tell me , ‘To go and tell my master, " Ahab " that “ Elijah is here” ? ? And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from you, that the Spirit of the Lord will carry you to a place....
THAT I DO NOT KNOW ..........


the Bible tells us that years later - " Elijah " himself - he wrote a letter to king Jehoram about
ten years after Elijah was relocated to another location.

APROX .....
15 to 25 years later ..we see that " Elijah " is still alive in the Bible after King Ahab and Jezebel had died - " Elijah " is still alive.....

2 Chronicles 21:12“ And a letter came to " King Jehoram " from " Elijah " the prophet,
saying, Thus says the Lord God of your father David: you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father. Jehoshaphat has died and now his son -

King Jehoram is reigning as king and Elijah is writing King Jehoram a letter telling him that he is not obeying God and walking in the ways of his father who has died. . .

This letter was written APROX ..... 15 to 25 after Elijah was taken upward and relocated


- IN FACT - Jehoshaphat was still alive and still the King - at the exact time when Elijah was relocated.

The bible clearly explains that , son of Jehoshaphat, did not begin his reign as king until AFTER that his father Jehoshaphat has died...

2 Chronicles 21:1 “ And Jehoshaphat rested with his fathers, and was buried with his father’s in the City of David. Then Jehoram his son reigned in his place.”

THE PROOF IS that - " E L I S H A " the disciple and follower of Elijah spoke directly with king Jehoshaphat JUST DIRECTELY AFTER -- just after Elijah was relocated.

Elijah has now been relocated -
2 Kings 3:11 - “ But Jehoshaphat said, ‘Is there no prophet of the Lord here, that we may inquire of the Lord by him?” So one of the servants of the king of Israel answered and said, “ Elisha the son of Shaphat is here, who poured water on the hands of Elijah.’”

And here " E L I S H A " is talking and communicating with the living CURRENT king " Jehoshaphat " the father of the next king, Jehoram, who becomes king
ONLY AFTER that His father dies.


and his son - Jehoram did not begin his reign until - AFTER HIS FATHER JEHOSHAPHAT HAD BEEN DEAD - there is no way for ELIJAH to write a letter to the next king " King Jehoram " and WHEN Jehoram the son - was the King - Elijah is sending a written letter that he wrote from a distant location to King Jehoram - who did not become King until his father died.

The Bible explains all of this and we continue to see events like this occurring -
Acts 8:38-40 - we see again that Philip also was relocated and God relocated him to Azotus and Caesarea.

Ezekiel was transported numerous times - to other locations and also -
into the future.

Ezek 3:12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard a loud rumbling sound behind me. (May the glory of the Lord be praised in his place!) It was the sound of the wings of the living beings as they brushed against each other and the rumbling of their wheels beneath them. The Spirit lifted me up and took me away.

Ezek 8:3 He put out what seemed to be a hand and took me by the hair. Then the Spirit lifted me up into the sky and transported me in a vision of God to Jerusalem.
Ezek 11:1 He put out what seemed to be a hand and took me by the hair. Then the Spirit lifted me up into the sky and transported me in a vision of God to Jerusalem.
Ezek 43:5 Then the Spirit took me up and brought me into the inner courtyard, and the glory of the Lord filled the Temple. And I heard someone speaking to me from within the Temple.


ELIJAH: was not believed to be taken completely from and permanently away from the earth - the PROPHETS around him simply said that his master had been taken; 2 Kings 2:16-18 They sent out 50 men to look for him saying “Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him to some mountain or perhaps in some valley.

I have spent many years studying this topic and I always love to read and communicate with others about this, if there is anyone interested as well,.... Bless Alway
 
Acts 2:34 KJV 'For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,'

So if David had not ascended into heaven by the date of 33 AD after dying about 1000 years previously - 'King David of Israel reigned from around 1010–970 BCE. He was the second king of Israel, succeeding King Saul' - where was or is he today?
And if he had not ascendd then why do so many 'Christians' claim the dad fly off to heaven?

Also when Jesus died the earthquake broke open the tombs and some saints walked about the village. Who believes the dead were resurrected that day? who could those saints have been - local believers killed for preaching the Gospel?

The supposed tomb containing the bones of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Cave of Machpelah with the variously modified building above it but it is 19 miles from Jerusalem so they were unlikely to be the ones in Jerusalem?
Good old Wikipedia ever ready to worship Satan claims: 'most historians believe the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob narrative to be primarily mythological.'
Can you explain to me where Enoch Elijah and Moses are please?
 
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