First Doctrines First

[NetChaplain]

God works the “desire” and “ability” for “His good pleasure” within every believer (Phil 2:13), and the pleasure concerning His will for the believer is twofold: to draw close to Himself; and to be used of Him to draw others to the Lord Jesus, who are also in “The Book of Life.”

The status of drawing “close to God” (Jas 4:8), and being “witnesses” (Acts 1:8) to others, is always commensurate with the level at “which the Holy Ghost teaches” (1Cor 2:13) us concerning Biblical doctrine; and of all of the spiritual growth doctrines (teachings other than about receiving salvation) in Scripture, not a single teaching is more significant than that which is related to the eternal security of the believer.

Properly understanding to “know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13) is obviously the pinnacle growth truth concerning Christ’s resurrection for the believer, because it is the basis upon which all spiritual growth truths rest. There would be no significant substance whatsoever to any growth truth if its workings were temporal, and to learn all Biblical truths within their intended meaning is to first learn to understand God’s omniscience.

When God saves a soul, would He not already know whether or not this would be permanent? His omniscience involves knowing all things, and He has known everything He knows—from eternity past. God give us to know of this concerning Himself, which gives great strength to faith, because it means that God already knows there is nothing one can think, feel, say or do which will interfere with His permanent claim on an individual.

One can try this or that, but my thoughts greatly fail me to contemplate that one can only try something that is not temporal. One cannot try salvation, as if its workings can be put off, any more than can one claim to have faith and eventually lose it. Universally, there are only two types of professions of faith (Heb 10:23); a false profession (Tit 1:16; Jam 2:20), and “a good profession” (1Tim 6:12). When a profession of faith has been made by an individual whose outward acting truly reveals otherwise, this is simply of the former claim, for the latter will be evidenced by its permanency (1John 2:19).

There are Scriptures which appear to support the concept of temporal salvation, but upon close observation and thorough research, not a single Biblical doctrine opposes the concept of permanent salvation, and let this article be an invitation to us to present Scripture that may appear to be contrary to the concept concerning the permanency of salvation, but be informed that my replies will consist of materials from Bible commentators (primarily John Gill of course, and I vehemently suggest trying this one first).

I’m aware that many Christians who desire to continue to read and study the Word of God do not use Biblical commentaries for reference, but I would like to challenge anyone who can find a commentator which presents material in opposition to this concept. Also, let it be known that those who may think they know more than a commentator are mistaken. God just shows one believer something another believer may not know, which explains the presence of various commentators, but their answers are all the same between them.

God teach us His Word!
- NC

 

[pekoe]

Hi NetChaplain.
Within the last year, I've been trying to read the scriptures with no preconceived ideas. That is, without being influenced by any commentary. I wanted to try this because there are things in the Bible that are contradictory to Christian doctrine.
Ancient Jewish sages formed opinions (made commentary) on
scripture and they were wrong, yet the masses believed what those learned men taught. I think for Christians to believe we are incapable of deception is a mistake. I'm beginning to believe Christians have been misled for centuries by heretical doctrine which has infected the very heart of Jesus teaching.
We were warned by our Lord and the Apostles against delusion that would not appear deceptive. I'm becoming convinced we need to reexamine what the Bible says and will post again soon.
God bless.

 

[pekoe]

NetChaplain:
God works the “desire” and “ability” for “His good pleasure” within every believer (Phil 2:13), and the pleasure concerning His will for the believer is twofold: to draw close to Himself; and to be used of Him to draw others to the Lord Jesus, who are also in “The Book of Life.”

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil.2:13

And because it is God working in us for His own good pleasure, what point is Paul making?

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil.22:12

Paul doesn't seem to be teaching that believers can never become lost again. He seems to be saying that since God is leading us, we better follow Him.

We are Gods temple because He indwells us. He "works in us." But Paul also teaches this:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Co.3:16-17

Paul is warning believers here. He's teaching us that if we as believers defile ourselves, we will be destroyed. Commentaries teach this passage only refers to a believers works, but look carefully:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Co.3:15

It is not only the works of the believer which are tried. The believer himself will tried and so Paul warns us in vss. 16 and 17 that if we defile Gods temple, we will be destroyed.

Another issue is the Book of Life. Against popular doctrine, I think it's possible that everyone born has their name written in it, but in rejecting God, theirs names are blotted out:

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev.3:5

Jesus witness saves people from having their names blotted out of the Book of Life:

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Mt.10:32

 

[james1523]

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil.2:13

And because it is God working in us for His own good pleasure, what point is Paul making?

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil.22:12

Paul doesn't seem to be teaching that believers can never become lost again. He seems to be saying that since God is leading us, we better follow Him.

We are Gods temple because He indwells us. He "works in us." But Paul also teaches this:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Co.3:16-17

Paul is warning believers here. He's teaching us that if we as believers defile ourselves, we will be destroyed. Commentaries teach this passage only refers to a believers works, but look carefully:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Co.3:15

It is not only the works of the believer which are tried. The believer himself will tried and so Paul warns us in vss. 16 and 17 that if we defile Gods temple, we will be destroyed.

Another issue is the Book of Life. Against popular doctrine, I think it's possible that everyone born has their name written in it, but in rejecting God, theirs names are blotted out:

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev.3:5

Jesus witness saves people from having their names blotted out of the Book of Life:

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Mt.10:32

Paul is really trying to address the issues in the Corinthian church locality - false doctrines, divisions, carnality etc. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians he was writing to a church (locality) which had not yet degraded into institutionalized and organized parties, sects or religions that we know today as denominations. Paul is trying to keep the peace and restore the unity, because he knows that when the church locality is damaged, Christ is damaged. Jesus impressed to Paul that His people and Himself were joined, as a Head and a body, at his conversion experience, and this is really reflected in Paul's ministry in the churches and his teaching of us not being merely saved individuals and "church attendees" but one body with many members (1 Cor 12:12). So the church condition on earth affects Christ, and also affects each and every member of the church.

Therefore the meaning of temple here is more of a corporate nature than an individual one. Many use this verse to mean we shouldn't smoke or drink etc but that's not the immediate context here, because it says "you are the temple of God", not "you are the temples of God". The work here is essentially the work of the apostles in building the church of God. The apostles saw themselves as builders, they laid the foundation which is Christ, and their job was to "build the house" (of God), which is also Christ (gold, silver, precious stones). This was in obedience to Christ's command to build His church (Matt 16:18). However others such as the Jewish converts brought in Judaism, and the Greek converts brought in human philosophy. The worthless materials are the heretical doctrines, divisive teachings, worldly practices and natural efforts. To destroy God's temple is to ruin, defile, the church of God, via destructive teachings (practices, efforts) that are different to the apostles teachings (Acts 2:42). The fate of such workers or "false apostles" is for their work (their false doctrines etc) to be destroyed, and suffer the loss of reward, but they will still be saved (as they are believers in Christ). This is because any building material other than Christ cannot stand the test of fire - Jewish religion or Greek philosophy cannot save or give life. After salvation, after we have accepted Christ as our foundation, do we then build with the Law and Judaism, or human wisdom and philosophy etc, or do we continue to build with Christ and the teachings of the apostles (aka Scripture)? The importance of building the church in unity on the apostles teaching (aka Scripture), is a neglected thing in this day and age of individualism and "personal salvation" and thousands of different denominations (divisions) to choose from.

 

[NetChaplain]

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil.2:13

And because it is God working in us for His own good pleasure, what point is Paul making?

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil.22:12

Hi Pekoe - You have a lot there but for now I just want to share with you concerning ""...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I've come to understand this means to work out of your salvation, or from your salvation, which brings forth "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (2Pet 1:3). Christ has worked out our salvation which is given at rebirth, thus salvation cannot be worked out or brought forth by us. Otherwise we can be or stay saved by works, instead of "by grace you are saved (Eph 2:8).

God's blessings to your Family and thanks for your replies.

 

[Travis]

Hi Pekoe - You have a lot there but for now I just want to share with you concerning ""...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I've come to understand this means to work out of your salvation, or from your salvation, which brings forth "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (2Pet 1:3). Christ has worked out our salvation which is given at rebirth, thus salvation cannot be worked out or brought forth by us. Otherwise we can be or stay saved by works, instead of "by grace you are saved (Eph 2:8).

God's blessings to your Family and thanks for your replies.

Adding to what you are saying (not that I'm implying what you said is lacking),

So many times that verse gets quoted:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "​

But the verse right after it get's ignored:

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.​

It's God who is working in us.... do we think God fails at anything He set's out to accomplish? If God is working in you.... then... (from earlier in the same epistle)

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
​

There are a lot of Jesus's out there. I speak to myself and everyone else.... make sure you are following the only true Jesus: Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is more than able to save you and me.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[NetChaplain]

Adding to what you are saying (not that I'm implying what you said is lacking),

So many times that verse gets quoted:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "​

But the verse right after it get's ignored:

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.​

It's God who is working in us.... do we think God fails at anything He set's out to accomplish? If God is working in you.... then... (from earlier in the same epistle)

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
​

There are a lot of Jesus's out there. I speak to myself and everyone else.... make sure you are following the only true Jesus: Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is more than able to save you and me.

Grace to you,

Travis

Good stuff Brother! Thanks for the reply.

 

[pekoe]

james1523 said,
Paul is really trying to address the issues in the Corinthian church locality - false doctrines, divisions, carnality etc. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians he was writing to a church (locality) which had not yet degraded into institutionalized and organized parties, sects or religions that we know today as denominations. Paul is trying to keep the peace and restore the unity, because he knows that when the church locality is damaged, Christ is damaged. Jesus impressed to Paul that His people and Himself were joined, as a Head and a body, at his conversion experience, and this is really reflected in Paul's ministry in the churches and his teaching of us not being merely saved individuals and "church attendees" but one body with many members (1 Cor 12:12). So the church condition on earth affects Christ, and also affects each and every member of the church.
Therefore the meaning of temple here is more of a corporate nature than an individual one.

Brother, I understand what you're saying and agree that Paul addressed many problems within the local Corinthian congregation, but when he says, "If any man defile the temple of God", he isn't speaking corporately, because the result of "any man" defiling the temple is destruction of that man, not the temple corporately.

james1523 said,
Many use this verse to mean we shouldn't smoke or drink etc but that's not the immediate context here, because it says "you are the temple of God", not "you are the temples of God". The work here is essentially the work of the apostles in building the church of God.
The apostles saw themselves as builders, they laid the foundation which is Christ, and their job was to "build the house" (of God), which is also Christ (gold, silver, precious stones). This was in obedience to Christ's command to build His church (Matt 16:18).

That's true, but the judgement seat of Christ, which is the context, is one where each person will be examined individually.
"We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ that everyone may receive the things done in his body...whether it be good or bad." (2 Co.5:10)
Paul doesn't mean the "church body". He means the individuals own body.

james 1523 said,
However others such as the Jewish converts brought in Judaism, and the Greek converts brought in human philosophy. The worthless materials are the heretical doctrines, divisive teachings, worldly practices and natural efforts.

It's true that the early Jewish converts were steeped in tradition and Hellenism is a concern, but that's not what he meant here.

james 1523 said,
To destroy God's temple is to ruin, defile, the church of God, via destructive teachings (practices, efforts) that are different to the apostles teachings (Acts 2:42).

Please look carefully at what you're doing here. You're running "destruction" and "defilement" together as both being done by members of the church.
Paul says defilement is caused be the believer. Destruction is caused by God.

james1523 said,
The fate of such workers or "false apostles" is for their work (their false doctrines etc) to be destroyed, and suffer the loss of reward, but they will still be saved (as they are believers in Christ).

Paul isn't saying they absolutely will be saved. He's saying they will be saved "so as yet by fire."
It isn't only a persons works that must abide the fire to remain. The individual will also have to survive the fire:
"...but he himself shall be saved YET SO AS BY FIRE." 1 Co.3:15
The fire will not only consume inferior works. It will consume false professors. That's why Paul immediately says:
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy." vs.16

james 1523 said,
After salvation, after we have accepted Christ as our foundation, do we then build our temples with the Law and Judaism, or human wisdom and philosophy etc, or do we continue to build with Christ and the teachings of the apostles? The importance of building the church in unity on the apostles teaching (aka Scripture), is a neglected thing in this day and age of "personal salvation" and thousands of different denominations (divisions) to choose from.

There is a difference between the law as "tradition" and the spirit of the law as Jesus taught it.
The law was never meant to become a "boast". It was meant to produce repentance and faith in God:

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Lk.1:5-6

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus didn't come to call people like Zacharias and Elizabeth, because they were sinners who had already repented.

 

[pekoe]

Hi Pekoe - You have a lot there but for now I just want to share with you concerning ""...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I've come to understand this means to work out of your salvation, or from your salvation, which brings forth "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (2 Pet 1:3. Christ has worked out our salvation which is given at rebirth, thus salvation cannot be worked out or brought forth by us. Otherwise we can be or stay saved by works, instead of "by grace you are saved (Eph 2:8).

God's blessings to your Family and thanks for your replies.

Thanks for that blessing NetChaplain and may God bless you and all those you hold dear as well.

Please consider what I say.:

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:" 2 Pe.1:3

Peter says we have all things pertaining to godliness. How did we get them? By the knowledge we have about Jesus. This is where our faith comes from. Peter goes on to say that we should do everything we can to add to our faith such things as virtue, knowledge, patience, etc. He says it's important for us to do this because if we do (in my own words), we won't get knocked all over the place. And..."so an entrance will be ministered to you abundantly into the the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." vs.11

Brother, I have no desire to upset you, but this idea that we have nothing to do with our salvation is so foreign to what the Bible says, it's actually antiChrist. I believe through misunderstanding (largely Pauls writings) the gospel has been completely flipped on its head.

 

[NetChaplain]

Brother, I have no desire to upset you, but this idea that we have nothing to do with our salvation is so foreign to what the Bible says, it's actually antiChrist. I believe through misunderstanding (largely Pauls writings) the gospel has been completely flipped on its head.

I believe you mean well so thanks for your concern ("I have no desire to upset you"). Believers who continue rereading and studying Scripture are at varying levels of where the Spirit teaches them, due to the individuality, thus the different understandings. Yet regardless, each will learn the truths contained within Scriptural doctrine according to the level of each.

Concerning our salvation, I believe it, and not ourselves, is what perpetuates our desires for God, because it is Himself--through salvation-- that "works in you to desire and perform of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

 

[pekoe]

Travis said,
Adding to what you are saying (not that I'm implying what you said is lacking),

So many times that verse gets quoted:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "

But the verse right after it get's ignored:

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

It's God who is working in us.... do we think God fails at anything He set's out to accomplish? If God is working in you.... then... (from earlier in the same epistle)


Philipians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

There are a lot of Jesus's out there. I speak to myself and everyone else.... make sure you are following the only true Jesus: Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He is more than able to save you and me.
Grace to you,

Travis

Thank you brother. I agree God is working in us "to will and do" His good pleasure. This doesn't mean we have no will of our own. God is working in us, but it is up to us to obey Him. God has begun this work and is faithful to keep doing it, leading us into all righteousness, goodness and truth, but this doesn't mean we can never go off course and displease Him. Paul was teaching us to yield ourselves to God working in us:

"(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phil.3:18-19

Brother, I'm going to tell you something. You say there are alot of Jesus's out there and you're right. I believe one of those Jesus's is smack in the middle of mainstream Christianity today. This deception is so diabolical it's almost beyond belief. We're being set up. Christianity has been primed for the man of sin.

 

[pekoe]

I believe you mean well so thanks for your concern ("I have no desire to upset you"). Believers who continue rereading and studying Scripture are at varying levels of where the Spirit teaches them, due to the individuality, thus the different understandings. Yet regardless, each will learn the truths contained within Scriptural doctrine according to the level of each.

Concerning our salvation, I believe it, and not ourselves, is what perpetuates our desires for God, because it is Himself--through salvation-- that "works in you to desire and perform of His good pleasure" (Phil.2:13.

Brother, I hope you can see my sincere concern for what I believe has happened to the Christian faith, because I assure you my feelings are genuine. If what say is true, that our salvation is what motivates us and not ourselves, then how would you explain this:

"Jesus answered and said unto him,If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Jn.14:23

Jesus is saying we are not indwelt by the Spirit until after we "keep His word". Jesus commanded sinners to repent. Salvation does originate with God, in that we believed because we heard the gospel. The problem with Christianity today is that it teaches we are incapable of even recognizing we are sinners without being indwelt by God. This isn't true. This concept is a Hellenistic belief which has infiltrated the church and has been taught for centuries. It is contrary to Hebraic belief that everyone born into this world is born of God.


Please consider this. Jesus asked the Rabbis this question:

"What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David."

They correctly answered Him. Lukes gospel gives us Jesus' lineage linking Him to David through His mother Mary, but notice all the names in between. They all end with Adam as their father...who is the son of God. Therefore humans are born into this world begin as children of God, not the devil.

 

[Travis]

Thank you brother. I agree God is working in us "to will and do" His good pleasure. This doesn't mean we have no will of our own. God is working in us, but it is up to us to obey Him. God has begun this work and is faithful to keep doing it, leading us into all righteousness, goodness and truth, but this doesn't mean we can never go off course and displease Him. Paul was teaching us to yield ourselves to God working in us:

"(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phil.3:18-19

Brother, I'm going to tell you something. You say there are alot of Jesus's out there and you're right. I believe one of those Jesus's is smack in the middle of mainstream Christianity today. This deception is so diabolical it's almost beyond belief. We're being set up. Christianity has been primed for the man of sin.

Hey Pekoe,

I've seen a lot of people who once claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ depart from the faith and deny the Lord. In the future, I think it's going to be an epidemic in the Western world. One of my best friends whom I was baptized with is no longer walking with the Lord (I assume that he never really was), as far as I know at least. These things grieve me a whole lot. I can understand why many people take salvation very seriously and warn others of the danger of falling away. And we should take our salvation very seriously. The consequences of falling away are certainly eternal separation from God himself. Common sense would tell us that we should willfully remain in Christ Jesus, abiding in Him and his teachings. I would never encourage someone to test God by trying to run away from Him or deny Him and to see if He still would Love them (Do not put the Lord your God to the test). Yet, even so, a certain man who did deny the Lord Jesus Christ in one of the most critical moments in time had the events of such recorded for us to see, and he was later restored by the Lord. Peter denied the Lord thrice, even cursing and swearing by an oath that he did not know Him. Yet Jesus did not stop loving him, and used him mightily down the road. He's still using him to this day in many regards.

But, there is a catch in all this that I think is pretty deadly. When we constantly worry about ourselves and others falling away from the faith, we take the focus off of Jesus Christ and his power, and focus on ourselves and our own ability. The scriptures say, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and he will make your paths straight." They do not say, "Trust in your own will with all your heart, and lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge your willpower, and it will make your paths straight."

We should seek the Lord with all our heart, without exception. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."

My problem is, that every moment of my whole life, I have utterly failed to keep that commandment. I have never fully loved the Lord my God with all my heart, nor all my soul, nor all my mind, let alone all three at the same time. But, when Jesus was born of a virgin, and lived in the likeness of sinful flesh, he loved the Lord his God (his Father) with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his mind, every single minute of every day, to the fullest extent. He never once ceased to do so. That same man, who knew no sin, then was made to be sin on the cross for me, to suffer in my place. He did that for me...

He did it before I was even born... before my father's father's father's father was even born. And then, when I was a small child, and my brother shared the good news of Jesus Christ with me, God planted a seed of faith in me, that allowed me to really believe that Jesus did all these things for me. I didn't know all the details about what was going on or why, I just knew that I was a sinner who needed saved, and that there was one man who could save me, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have put my trust in him to save me, day to day, moment to moment, from my worst enemy, namely myself. And if he can't save me from my own self, my own sinful desires and brokenness, then He is not much of a Savior I guess... But I believe he is more than able to do these things. He is my only hope, and I'm going to keep on trusting in him to save me, until that final day when he makes me to have a body like his, glorified and without sin. What a glorious day that will be.

Many will fall away and be offended by Christ. I don't have the power to stop this from happening. But of this I am sure:

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

Not a single one of the lambs with which the Father has given into the hands of his Son will be eternally lost. Not a single one. Else God himself is a liar, and we have no hope on this earth.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[NetChaplain]

Brother, I hope you can see my sincere concern for what I believe has happened to the Christian faith, because I assure you my feelings are genuine. If what say is true, that our salvation is what motivates us and not ourselves, then how would you explain this:

"Jesus answered and said unto him,If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Jn.14:23

Jesus is saying we are not indwelt by the Spirit until after we "keep His word".

I appreciate that you, as I do also, seek truth, and God will teach it to us concerning everything He wants us to be used in.

I believe one cannot do the will of God (in this dispensation) without the Spirit of God, because our practical application of doing His will must be of the Spirit (Gal 5:17). Only those who are Christ's have the Spirit (Rom 8:9), and the Spirit is the only One Who teaches truth (1Cor 2:13), for He is the Author of the Word of God: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God " (2Tim 3:16), "as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2Pet 1:21).

 

[pekoe]

Travis said,
Hey Pekoe,
I've seen a lot of people who once claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ depart from the faith and deny the Lord. In the future, I think it's going to be an epidemic in the Western world. One of my best friends whom I was baptized with is no longer walking with the Lord (I assume that he never really was), as far as I know at least. These things grieve me a whole lot. I can understand why many people take salvation very seriously and warn others of the danger of falling away. And we should take our salvation very seriously. The consequences of falling away are certainly eternal separation from God himself. Common sense would tell us that we should willfully remain in Christ Jesus, abiding in Him and his teachings. I would never encourage someone to test God by trying to run away from Him or deny Him and to see if He still would Love them (Do not put the Lord your God to the test). Yet, even so, a certain man who did deny the Lord Jesus Christ in one of the most critical moments in time had the events of such recorded for us to see, and he was later restored by the Lord. Peter denied the Lord thrice, even cursing and swearing by an oath that he did not know Him. Yet Jesus did not stop loving him, and used him mightily down the road. He's still using him to this day in many regards.

You're right and the parable of the prodigal son confirms what you say, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Travis said,
But, there is a catch in all this that I think is pretty deadly. When we constantly worry about ourselves and others falling away from the faith, we take the focus off of Jesus Christ and his power, and focus on ourselves and our own ability. The scriptures say, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and he will make your paths straight." They do not say, "Trust in your own will with all your heart, and lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge your willpower, and it will make your paths straight."

I'm not suggesting our focus isn't on God, or that we shouldn't lean on Him. What I'm against is that we have no ability to do that and that confuses scripture to no end.

Travis said,
We should seek the Lord with all our heart, without exception. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."
My problem is, that every moment of my whole life, I have utterly failed to keep that commandment. I have never fully loved the Lord my God with all my heart, nor all my soul, nor all my mind, let alone all three at the same time.

Brother, I hear what you're saying loud and clear and feel (or felt the same way). I hope you take this the right way, because I asked myself this question honestly. Did you ever consider that the reason you never loved God with all your being is because you really didn't really have to, because God won't condemn you for anything? Does the gospel ever make you feel like all my sins have been forgiven and no matter what I do, God won't punish me, because Jesus already took that for me? I asked myself this question and the answer was yes.

Travis said,
But, when Jesus was born of a virgin, and lived in the likeness of sinful flesh, he loved the Lord his God (his Father) with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his mind, every single minute of every day, to the fullest extent. He never once ceased to do so. That same man, who knew no sin, then was made to be sin on the cross for me, to suffer in my place. He did that for me...

Brother, please listen to what I say and consider this. What does it mean that "Jesus became sin on the cross."??? Does this mean (as I have believed for most of my Christian life) that our sins were transferred onto Jesus? Does it really mean that God punished the Innocent in place of the guilty?
Look at this:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" Gal.3:13
Jesus was made a curse...because the OT says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Why does the OT say this?
Look at this:
"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;)"... De.21:22-23
Jesus committed no sin, but people standing by considered Him a sinner. They thought He was being punished by God because He Himself was a sinner:
"...we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Is.53:4
In this way, He became sin...who knew no sin.
I do believe Jesus died because we are sinners, but I don't believe He was being punished for our sins. There is no place in the Bible where God punishes the innocent in place of the guilty. Everything in scripture concerning God testifies against injustice.

Travis said,
He did it before I was even born... before my father's father's father's father was even born. And then, when I was a small child, and my brother shared the good news of Jesus Christ with me, God planted a seed of faith in me, that allowed me to really believe that Jesus did all these things for me. I didn't know all the details about what was going on or why, I just knew that I was a sinner who needed saved, and that there was one man who could save me, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have put my trust in him to save me, day to day, moment to moment, from my worst enemy, namely myself. And if he can't save me from my own self, my own sinful desires and brokenness, then He is not much of a Savior I guess... But I believe he is more than able to do these things. He is my only hope, and I'm going to keep on trusting in him to save me, until that final day when he makes me to have a body like his, glorified and without sin. What a glorious day that will be.

I think Jesus came to us to teach us about God and I think we need to yield ourselves to Him. He died and rose so our faith would be in God.
"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." 1 Pe.1:21
Peter is saying that we believe in Jesus because He rose from the dead. That's why we believe in God. God doesn't cast spells over people so they will believe. He reasons with people. He shows them why they should believe.

Travis said,
Many will fall away and be offended by Christ. I don't have the power to stop this from happening.

I don't see why anyone would be offended by the gospel as it is taught today. You don't have to do anything, except believe Jesus died for your sins. Where's the offense in that?
Please think about this. Here's an offense:
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal.5:24
Believers follow Jesus example.

Travis said,
But of this I am sure:
John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Not a single one of the lambs with which the Father has given into the hands of his Son will be eternally lost. Not a single one. Else God himself is a liar, and we have no hope on this earth.

I don't have a problem with what you're quoting here. To believe on Jesus is Gods will. To believe on Jesus I think means to follow him.

 

[pekoe]

NetChaplain said,
I appreciate that you, as I do also, seek truth, and God will teach it to us concerning everything He wants us to be used in.
I believe one cannot do the will of God (in this dispensation) without the Spirit of God, because our practical application of doing His will must be of the Spirit (Gal 5:17).

I agree, but that the Spirit and flesh are opposed to one another doesn't mean a sinner, before coming to Christ, has no conception of right and wrong. Every human (without a mental problem) learns this and therefore may call upon God. If this was not true, Jesus would not have said:
"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Mt.12:41
The condemnation is that those hearing Jesus could have, as in Johahs day, and should have repented, because Jesus is way greater than the prophets.

NetChaplain said,
Only those who are Christ's have the Spirit (Rom 8:9), and the Spirit is the only One Who teaches truth (1 Co.2:13, for He is the Author of the Word of God: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God " (2 Tim.3:15, "as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pe.1:1

I believe he means the greater truths of seeing the Messiah in scripture.

NetChaplain:
There are Scriptures which appear to support the concept of temporal salvation, but upon close observation and thorough research, not a single Biblical doctrine opposes the concept of permanent salvation, and let this article be an invitation to us to present Scripture that may appear to be contrary to the concept concerning the permanency of salvation, but be informed that my replies will consist of materials from Bible commentators (primarily John Gill of course, and I vehemently suggest trying this one first).

I think this would count as an example:
"And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses. Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD...The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." Ex.14:31, 15:1-2
NetChaplain, this is the story of every believer. Release from bondage, on a journey by faith in God, as we prasie Him along the way. This is our story brother. I think those people had faith in God and then turned their backs on Him.

 

[Travis]

Brother, I hear what you're saying loud and clear and feel (or felt the same way). I hope you take this the right way, because I asked myself this question honestly. Did you ever consider that the reason you never loved God with all your being is because you really didn't really have to, because God won't condemn you for anything? 1 Does the gospel ever make you feel like all my sins have been forgiven and no matter what I do, God won't punish me, because Jesus already took that for me? I asked myself this question and the answer was yes.

Brother, please listen to what I say and consider this. What does it mean that "Jesus became sin on the cross."??? Does this mean (as I have believed for most of my Christian life) that our sins were transferred onto Jesus? Does it really mean that God punished the Innocent in place of the guilty? 2
Look at this:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" Gal.3:13
Jesus was made a curse...because the OT says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Why does the OT say this?
Look at this:
"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;)"... De.21:22-23
Jesus committed no sin, but people standing by considered Him a sinner. They thought He was being punished by God because He Himself was a sinner:
"...we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Is.53:4
In this way, He became sin...who knew no sin.
I do believe Jesus died because we are sinners, but I don't believe He was being punished for our sins. There is no place in the Bible where God punishes the innocent in place of the guilty. Everything in scripture concerning God testifies against injustice.

1. You make a good point there. Am I not loving Jesus with all my heart because Jesus already paid the price for me, and the deal is done? This is how you can tell sheep apart from the goats. When grace is preached, when the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus Christ, and the freedom that is in Christ Jesus is preached, you can tell who are the goats and who are the sheep by how they react to the message. The goats will say in their hearts, "What great news! We are free! Jesus paid for our sins! let us go then and sin because it is paid for!" The sheep will say in their hearts, "What great news! We are free! Jesus paid for our sins! Let us serve Jesus Christ, who has saved us from the wrath of Almighty God!" The message of grace, peace, and freedom causes different reactions in different people. Those who have the Spirit of God working on them react differently than those who do not have the Spirit of God. When the Word of God is preached, it becomes manifest over time who is who, and what is what. Whether good or evil. Wheat and tares look identical until the rain and sunshine shine forth on it day to day and they come to maturity. Then it becomes manifest which is which, once they reach maturity. The rain and the sun are not bad things for causing the weeds to grow and prosper, the DNA of the weeds, which make them weeds, is the problem. The sun and the rain are themselves pure, they just cause the weeds to make themselves known in time.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2. "Does this mean (as I have believed for most of my Christian life) that our sins were transferred onto Jesus?"

Yes, that's exactly what it means. You quoted Isaiah 53: 4, but the next verse is very important too, and verse 10:

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is what substitutionary atonement is all about, one who is without sin dying on behalf of one who has sin. This is the core of the Gospel message, the innocent taking the place of the guilty. This is the message that has been preached from the beginning, from the time of Cain and Abel. Cain and Abel were to bring forth an offering to the Lord, Cain brought forth an offering from the fruit of the ground, but Abel brought forth the first-lings of his flock and the fat there of. The Lord was not pleased with Cain's offering, but he was with Abel's: "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." The lamb that Abel slaughtered, that he took his knife out and slit the little lambs neck with, and then watched it bleed out on the ground, had done nothing wrong at all. Not a thing. It was a spotless lamb, completely and utterly innocent, yet it pleased the Lord for Abel to slit its throat and offer it as a sacrifice to the Lord. Later in time, God told Abraham, the father of our faith, to take his only begotten son, and sacrifice him on the mountain:

Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.​

What did Isaac do to deserve to be sacrificed? How is it just that Isaac should be put to death? But, this was only a shadow of things to come, as we all know. When one sacrificed an animal as a sin offering, the priest would lay his hands on the sacrifices head, to "impart" the sins of the guilty party to the animal. Likewise, our sin was imparted to Jesus on the cross.

Exodus 29:15-16
Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram. 16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle [it] round about upon the altar.​

When we come before God we either have the sacrifice of Cain, or the sacrifice of Abel in our hands with us. If we trust in the in the finished work of Jesus on Calvary as the source of our righteousness and right standing before God, then we have the offering of Abel in our hands. If we have the work of the ground, the efforts of our own hands, our own good works and righteousness, we have the sacrifice of Cain in our hands. The Lord is never pleased with the sacrifice of Cain, ever. And Cain always ends up slaying his brother out of jealousy, it continues to happen till this day.

I don't see why anyone would be offended by the gospel as it is taught today. You don't have to do anything, except believe Jesus died for your sins. Where's the offense in that?
Please think about this. Here's an offense:
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal.5:24
Believers follow Jesus example.
I don't have a problem with what you're quoting here. To believe on Jesus is Gods will. To believe on Jesus I think means to follow him.

The offense of the gospel is that you can't do anything in your own power to make yourself righteous before God. The offense is that you are a sinner so steeped in sin and transgression, so broken and useless, that God had to send his only begotten Son to die on a cross, to taste death for you, for you to be able to be saved. The offense of the cross is that you have to stop trusting in your own self, and start trusting in another (Jesus) to save you. To accept Jesus Christ as savior, you have to admit that you need a savior: there-in lies the offense. You must drink his blood, and feast on his flesh to have any part in him, that is offensive.

This is only an offense to those who want to earn their own salvation though. It is absolutely wonderful news for those who are poor in spirit, who have a broken and contrite heart.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[NetChaplain]

I agree, but that the Spirit and flesh are opposed to one another doesn't mean a sinner, before coming to Christ, has no conception of right and wrong. Every human (without a mental problem) learns this and therefore may call upon God.

Yes, but I believe the issue isn't knowing right from wrong, this has always been a capability of man. Adam and Eve knew it was disobedience before the first sin, because He forbid them concerning it. The difference after sinning was that the sin itself caused them to comprehend sin, not just know what sin is, and in doing so it increased their comprehension concerning God's holiness.

I believe he means the greater truths of seeing the Messiah in scripture.

Yes and not just concerning His Messiah-ship, but all Scriptural truths we need to comprehend for our Spiritual growth.

I think those people had faith in God and then turned their backs on Him.

The most confirming evidence of a believer (I would say true believer but that would be an oxymoron because one cannot be a true believer and eventually become a true unbeliever) is their continuance (perseverance) in the desire for God's pleasure (1John 2:19), which is the very thing He "works" in us (Phil 2:13), through the Spirit (Gal 5:17).

God knew the generality of Israel and the rest of the world not trust (believe) Him, which is the primary cause of disobedience, but He also knew their would be believers from both dispensations whom He will have with Him forever. I do not find it insensible to conceive that God knew it would be worth the "few" from the world to find eternal life, for the entire Heaven rejoices over "one sinner who repents."

The numbers of those perishing and those being saved will be "innumerable" (Rev 7:9; 20:8), but in comparison, the saved will be "few" (Mat 7:13, 14). This is why it has always been evident that most in this life have no desire to be right with God.

 

[pekoe]

1. You make a good point there. Am I not loving Jesus with all my heart because Jesus already paid the price for me, and the deal is done? This is how you can tell sheep apart from the goats. When grace is preached, when the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus Christ, and the freedom that is in Christ Jesus is preached, you can tell who are the goats and who are the sheep by how they react to the message. The goats will say in their hearts, "What great news! We are free! Jesus paid for our sins! let us go then and sin because it is paid for!" The sheep will say in their hearts, "What great news! We are free! Jesus paid for our sins! Let us serve Jesus Christ, who has saved us from the wrath of Almighty God!" The message of grace, peace, and freedom causes different reactions in different people. Those who have the Spirit of God working on them react differently than those who do not have the Spirit of God. When the Word of God is preached, it becomes manifest over time who is who, and what is what. Whether good or evil. Wheat and tares look identical until the rain and sunshine shine forth on it day to day and they come to maturity. Then it becomes manifest which is which, once they reach maturity. The rain and the sun are not bad things for causing the weeds to grow and prosper, the DNA of the weeds, which make them weeds, is the problem. The sun and the rain are themselves pure, they just cause the weeds to make themselves known in time.


For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2. "Does this mean (as I have believed for most of my Christian life) that our sins were transferred onto Jesus?"

Yes, that's exactly what it means. You quoted Isaiah 53: 4, but the next verse is very important too, and verse 10:


But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This is what substitutionary atonement is all about, one who is without sin dying on behalf of one who has sin. This is the core of the Gospel message, the innocent taking the place of the guilty. This is the message that has been preached from the beginning, from the time of Cain and Abel. Cain and Abel were to bring forth an offering to the Lord, Cain brought forth an offering from the fruit of the ground, but Abel brought forth the first-lings of his flock and the fat there of. The Lord was not pleased with Cain's offering, but he was with Abel's: "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." The lamb that Abel slaughtered, that he took his knife out and slit the little lambs neck with, and then watched it bleed out on the ground, had done nothing wrong at all. Not a thing. It was a spotless lamb, completely and utterly innocent, yet it pleased the Lord for Abel to slit its throat and offer it as a sacrifice to the Lord. Later in time, God told Abraham, the father of our faith, to take his only begotten son, and sacrifice him on the mountain:

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.​

What did Isaac do to deserve to be sacrificed? How is it just that Isaac should be put to death? But, this was only a shadow of things to come, as we all know. When one sacrificed an animal as a sin offering, the priest would lay his hands on the sacrifices head, to "impart" the sins of the guilty party to the animal. Likewise, our sin was imparted to Jesus on the cross.

Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram. 16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle [it] round about upon the altar.​

When we come before God we either have the sacrifice of Cain, or the sacrifice of Abel in our hands with us. If we trust in the in the finished work of Jesus on Calvary as the source of our righteousness and right standing before God, then we have the offering of Abel in our hands. If we have the work of the ground, the efforts of our own hands, our own good works and righteousness, we have the sacrifice of Cain in our hands. The Lord is never pleased with the sacrifice of Cain, ever. And Cain always ends up slaying his brother out of jealousy, it continues to happen till this day.

The offense of the gospel is that you can't do anything in your own power to make yourself righteous before God. The offense is that you are a sinner so steeped in sin and transgression, so broken and useless, that God had to send his only begotten Son to die on a cross, to taste death for you, for you to be able to be saved. The offense of the cross is that you have to stop trusting in your own self, and start trusting in another (Jesus) to save you. To accept Jesus Christ as savior, you have to admit that you need a savior: there-in lies the offense. You must drink his blood, and feast on his flesh to have any part in him, that is offensive.

This is only an offense to those who want to earn their own salvation though. It is absolutely wonderful news for those who are poor in spirit, who have a broken and contrite heart.

Grace to you,

Travis

Hi Travis.
I think it's possible we've misunderstood what the Bible means when it says Jesus bore our sins:

"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our*infirmities, and*bare*our sicknesses." Mt.8:17

Reading this verse, none of us would say Jesus became sickness, but that He was affected by our sickness. He was burdened with our ills.

"Our*fathers*have sinned,*and are*not; and we have*borne*their iniquities." Lam.5:7

Lamintations isn't saying these sons and daughters became sin or had their fathers sins transferred onto them. Solomon means they were affected by what their parents did.

Abraham sacrificing Isaac is a metaphor. God told him his descendants would come from isaac, so if Isaac was dead, the only way for God to fulfill His promise would be to raise Abraham's son from the dead. By this, Abraham received Christ in a figure. Heb.11:17-19

The sacrifices of the OT were not for sin transferrence, but for confession. Have to get back to you later.

 

[pekoe]

Hi Travis.
Jesus said scripture cannot be broken.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. De.24:16

For this reason alone, God's plan of salvation could not be to have Jesus die in our place. It's not possible. But it is possible that Jesus suffered and died because we are sinners. His entire life including the terrible things He endured, the beatings, the thorns, the mocking, the cross...all of it in sacrifice, teaching us about His Father. This makes far more sense than God condemning the Innocent.

What happened to Jesus is in a way like the story of Joseph:

But as for you, ye thought evil against me;*but*God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as*it is*this day, to save much people alive. Ge.50:20

Do you see?