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Devil rebelion

Good afternoon Sargento;

It seems to me you provided the answer to your topic. Can God be against God? So far, you have argued that Satan was an angel created for the deliberate purpose of being against God. Seriously, does God want or need enemies to throw his plans into chaos?


Oh my friend.... I'm sorry to tell you this but you do not know God.

GOD IS NOT ABOVE SIN???

Who does He sins against? Who judges Him?
Who's law does He brakes?

IS KILLING A SIN OR NOT?

When He told Saul to kill babies did HE became or made Saul a sinner? In fact, Saul sinned by NOT killing....

IS PROSTITUTION A SIN OR NOT?

When HE told Oseias to have sons of prostituts did HE sin or made Oseias sin?

IS STEALING A SIN OR NOT?

When HE told Josua to take on other peoples lands and kill them all did HE sinned or made Joshua sin?


My friend.... sin, is being against God.

Even if breakes every single one of His commandmets to us HE would not sin.... HE determins what is sin and what is not, sin exists by His will not by it self.

Just and perfect... of course, all is He's and cannot owe to no one.
 
This is flawed. Your stating the devil was always the devil. That is not the case. He was the beautiful angel Lucifer before he rebelled against GOD (yes, free will) and was cast down out of heaven.

Nowhere in the bible does it say he was always a sinner in heaven.

REVELATION 12

7 And war broke out in heaven: l Michael and his angels fought m with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they 1 did not prevail, nor was a place found for 2 them in heaven any longer. 9 So n the great dragon was cast out, o that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, pwho deceives the whole world; q he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, s who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 "And t they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, u and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 "Therefore v rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! w Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, x because he knows that he has a short time."
 
He was created beautiful and powerful, and called Morning Star, the most glorious of all the angels and created beautiful music.

So you can't say he was never good in a sense. There was a time that he showed the glory of Yahweh's handiwork.

He is still beautiful in appearance, but now he uses his power and beauty to deceive and destroy millions of humans. He makes lovely music that turns people away from Yeshua. His heart is dark and he loves lies.
 
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1Co_2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Jesus over came it all and now is LORD of All. He took back what the devil had tricked mankind into giving. But now we accept the victory our LORD won by Faith.

We have it all. We just do not fully see it yet. We have it Now.

2Pe_1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal_5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.


1Co_8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.


Jas_1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

We do have choice , but He will not let us shame HIM. We can only go so far ? Then He stops us one way or another ?

Rom_8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

It just shows HIS great Love for those who have accepted His wonderful free gift and the relationship .
 
Isaiah 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
 
Sargento....it seems to me that you are agreeing with Adam who excused his sin and assuaged his guilt by casting the blame upon God in blaming God because He created Eve who gave him the forbidden fruit. You are also agreeing with Eve because she blamed the serpent, and indirectly blamed God for creating the serpent. So according to you sin and rebellion isn't our fault at all Sargento...its all God's fault, who planned for it and created it and established it all in the beginning.

It pains me to read what you have written, and pains me more to write of it. But this must be said. You insult God. You totally misunderstand His holy and righteous character, and greatly underestimate your own guiltiness and responsibility for your own wickedness. And worse, you promote this as Biblical "truth"!

But back to the original context of the thread. Nothing was created evil. Not the devil, nor man. We do not know the true origin of evil, but we do know that it first appeared in the heart of Lucifer who in his pride sought to be elevated above his fellows. The following has been quoted before:

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
  • I will ascend into heaven
  • , I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
  • I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  • 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
  • I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

5 steps up in Lucifer's selfish prideful heart, and one step down as a result.

In direct distinction, we have the mind of Christ...5 steps down in humility and love, and one step up as a result....

Phill. 2:.6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  • 7 But made himself of no reputation,
  • and took upon him the form of a servant,
  • and was made in the likeness of men:
  • 8 And being found in fashion as a man,he humbled himself,
  • and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Do you suppose that God deliberately created evil so that He could deliberately send His Son to suffer and die? No. no. Just as it was Jesus choice to humble Himself on behalf of man, so it was Lucifer's choice to rebel.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
Sargento very well posted.


Brakelite, peace!


Excuse me for being me intromentendo.

If there was something that was not deliberate, then God was not the Lord of the universe or the sole sovereign.

You do not believe in God? If God says that he was who created all things, including good and evil, why doubt? Your faith is not in what is written? And the Scripture says: Is.45:7

What about the devil: Is.54:16

He has always been bad since its origin, but he was never good, but it was good tree could never become corrupt tree.


The text of Isaiah and Ezekiel are parables of the Antichrist who is to come, and not the devil of a past that was well invented by men.


Blaming God? Do you think good and evil plays in God? Do you think God created these laws for him or for men?


If there was something he did not, would long ago have destroyed? If death, sin, the devil, and all kinds of problems if these things were not the will of God, he would have exterminated?


Because if not then why it does nothing? Because premite the devil continues to reign over mankind? Because premite that the disease continues to claim lives since children of the adults?


No, friend, everything obeys good or evil, light or darkness, are all his servants, and all do your will, for him there is no struggle or war, but all and all are of him and for him. Det.32:39 /Os.6:1

If it was not God's plan, because all men are born and have died in sin before sin even if only Adam sinned?


You attached that the devil was not in the will of God had given him the dominion of the world, and men subjected to its will?


Do you think God could not save men without even kill Jesus? Think he needed the blood of your child when it is all and everything dominates?


The problem is the doctrine of free will that puts God to depend on man's choices, and according to this doctrine God has failed from the beginning, but not in the eyes of God's elect.

The devil is a servant of God, by which God expresses his wrath for the destruction of the wicked and the righteous correction, just as Jesus is God's arm through which he expresses his love for the elect....

Forgive my writing, I'm talking about the translator because I speak little English
 
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Hi Shutterbug... Sorry for the time I toke to answer you and all the others... At weekends I'm busy so I take more time than usual.... I'll answer you all has time allows me.


Good morning Sargento;

Are you are suggesting that God created an angel to be opposite of everything he stood for, to be a test not just for us, but for all of the angels in Heaven, too? It that's true, then would it not be reasonable to conclude the Devil is a deliberate fall-guy who will spend eternity in torment because he was created solely for that purpose? Cheers, John


I'm saying that GOD created Devil to oppose his sons ... not just for testing, but to do all the work that GOD reserved for him to do according to HIS eternal plan.
All was created for our benefice, and us for Jesus.

The Devil is an instrument of GOD ... created with a nature naturally opposed to GOD and all of HIS sons and angels, and all of GOD's plan even if he's in it ... Isn't written in Revelation all about the Antichrist and his work??? However he, even being opposed to GOD, will have to fulfill it and obey it all ... because, just like is written, GOD will manipulate the heart of the Antichrist (just like HE did with the Pharaoh) so that he fulfill his destiny and do his work.... and just like the Pharaoh ("...Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth..."), the Devi was raised up with the purpose he now serves.
... when his work is done he with all of his sons and servants will then go to it's reserved place, the lake of fire.

He was made with a purpose, and GOD did not failed his purpose with him... or did HE?


I'll answer the other posts latter because I cannot right now...
 
I'm saying that GOD created Devil to oppose his sons ... not just for testing, but to do all the work that GOD reserved for him to do according to HIS eternal plan.
All was created for our benefice, and us for Jesus.
This doesn't sound right at all. You have to remember, Yahweh creates his beings with FREE WILL. He would not create someone for the sole purpose of doing evil, and then punish that person for doing the evil. He created Lucifer to be good. But Lucifer chose (by his own free will) to do evil. That is why he will be punished. If even human beings have free will, then of course a superior angel would also have free will.

The difference between Lucifer and a lowly human being is, we have wayyy less intelligence/wisdom/knowledge than he does. And he is immortal. Perhaps his great knowledge is why his sin is inexusable?
 
Good afternoon Sargento;

It seems to me you provided the answer to your topic. Can God be against God? So far, you have argued that Satan was an angel created for the deliberate purpose of being against God. Seriously, does God want or need enemies to throw his plans into chaos?

Just like I said Shutterbug... GOD created the Devil to oppose to Jesus and us, for our benefit.
God, does not need anything... HE doesn't creates anything for needing.... HE creates because HE has a plan and wants to fulfill it... and that plan is our sanctification.

The other option would be GOD failed.
 
Hi Chad...

This is flawed. Your stating the devil was always the devil. That is not the case. He was the beautiful angel Lucifer before he rebelled against GOD (yes, free will) and was cast down out of heaven.

Nowhere in the bible does it say he was always a sinner in heaven.

REVELATION 12

7 And war broke out in heaven: l Michael and his angels fought m with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they 1 did not prevail, nor was a place found for 2 them in heaven any longer. 9 So n the great dragon was cast out, o that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, pwho deceives the whole world; q he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, is="" 6:9,="" is="" 6:10<="" footnote><="" woc>
'="" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(170, 170, 170); font-style: italic; vertical-align: top;">r "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, s who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 "And t they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, u and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 "Therefore v rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! w Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, x because he knows that he has a short time."


Even so, in Job's time the Devil had access to heaven... so this did not happen before that ... his expelling from heaven in Rev 12 did not happen at the beginning... and like we see, he was already our accuser at that time (Job's time).

Chad, Rev 12 is talking about the time when the gospel started to be preach... when Jesus send the 70 disciples and when he died... the time of Jesus on earth, not before Eden.

About the Devil being allways the Devil... there's many passages saying it and explaining why .. this is one by Jesus.
Ye are of {your} father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. {of his own: or, from his own will or disposition}
John 8:44

But that he was ever good and than became bad we see nowhere... see the first answers to this topic Chad, I already answered about the verses that seems to invoke that he was once good.
 
Hi Love...
He was created beautiful and powerful, and called Morning Star, the most glorious of all the angels and created beautiful music.

So you can't say he was never good in a sense. There was a time that he showed the glory of Yahweh's handiwork.

He is still beautiful in appearance, but now he uses his power and beauty to deceive and destroy millions of humans. He makes lovely music that turns people away from Yeshua. His heart is dark and he loves lies.

That is not about the Devil... that is a prophecy about the Antichrist that end's up in total and eternal annihilation... is the devil annihilated yet or will he rise again in the last days with the Antichrist?
Read it carefully...

I already answered it:

About Eze 28... he is talking for the future NOT THE PAST ... prophecys usually are for the future... and it was for the King of Tyre, NOT THE DEVIL.
However this is a prophecy about the Antichrist and what will happen in the last days... and watch how it ends:

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}"
Ez 28:19

It is the Devil total annihilation which will happen in the day of the Lord.... if this is about a rebellion in the past, this would be wrong (has many other things in this chapter).

This does not say that Devil was ever good...
...however Christ did directly say that he was bad from the beginning... will you ignore this?




Luke 10:18 it's talking about the devil being expelled from heaven where he went to accuse us day and night (like we see in Job where he ask GOD's permission to hurt Job and GOD grant it)... that happened when Jesus sent the 70 disciples to preach the gospel and the heavens started to be purified (Yes, heavens where purified in Jesus like Paul says in Hb 9:23)

"{It was} therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."
Hb 9:23

... and the first thing that happened before the heaven purification was that devil was expelled from there (this is also testified in Revelation 12:10-11) ...

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Rev 12:10-11

...by the preaching of the gospel ... that was what it happened that moment, not before...
...so that does not mean that he was ever good... or does it??





About Isa 14... it talks about the day of the LORD again... and again it's the future not the past... because it says :

And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! {proverb: or, taunting speech} {golden...: or, exactress of gold}
Isa 14:3-4

This is what we are going to say about the Antichrist in the day that Jesus annihilates him ... when the oppressor ceases ... not what happened before... this is what well say in the day of the LORD when the Devil will be annihilated by the splendor of the appearing of our Lord.
 
Isaiah 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Explained above....

....plus, if he was in heaven how did he wanted to ASCEND to heaven (...For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I...)? Wasn't he in heaven????
This is the glory the Antichrist will bring to the holy city (Israel) and his appearance to the world.... but he will fight the sons of GOD, sons of Abraham (stars of GOD), and wish to be like GOD and ASCEND to heaven.
 
Hi brakelite...
Sargento....it seems to me that you are agreeing with Adam who excused his sin and assuaged his guilt by casting the blame upon God in blaming God because He created Eve who gave him the forbidden fruit. You are also agreeing with Eve because she blamed the serpent, and indirectly blamed God for creating the serpent. So according to you sin and rebellion isn't our fault at all Sargento...its all God's fault, who planned for it and created it and established it all in the beginning.

It pains me to read what you have written, and pains me more to write of it. But this must be said. You insult God. You totally misunderstand His holy and righteous character, and greatly underestimate your own guiltiness and responsibility for your own wickedness. And worse, you promote this as Biblical "truth"!

But back to the original context of the thread. Nothing was created evil. Not the devil, nor man. We do not know the true origin of evil, but we do know that it first appeared in the heart of Lucifer who in his pride sought to be elevated above his fellows. The following has been quoted before:

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
  • I will ascend into heaven
  • , I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
  • I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  • 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
  • I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

5 steps up in Lucifer's selfish prideful heart, and one step down as a result.

In direct distinction, we have the mind of Christ...5 steps down in humility and love, and one step up as a result....

Phill. 2:.6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
  • 7 But made himself of no reputation,
  • and took upon him the form of a servant,
  • and was made in the likeness of men:
  • 8 And being found in fashion as a man,he humbled himself,
  • and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Do you suppose that God deliberately created evil so that He could deliberately send His Son to suffer and die? No. no. Just as it was Jesus choice to humble Himself on behalf of man, so it was Lucifer's choice to rebel.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

About the Devil's rebellion you have my answer above... and everything you wrote about it is in it and explained and also the error of this "interpretation" is exposed.

About Adam and Eve and Devil and the creation of Evil... GOD himself tells us that HE created evil with all the letters .... HE says it directly so there's no doubt ... otherwise is not hard to see that HE would claim to be in total control but it would be false because something AGAINST the will of GOD generated of his own.... such GOD would not be trust-able....
Even worst... if the Devil was created good and became bad (frustrating GOD's plans) who ensures me that won't be another rebellion on Heaven??? What if all the angels rebels?? What if the Devil wins and frustrates GOD plans AGAIN like he did once (not to say even worst things that in these case could happen).

Now... one thing is not to understand His plan, but another this is to see it happen on the bible and see examples of it everywhere all over the bible and deny it because He's love or perfection does not meets humans standards.
I'm sorry Brakelite... you're wrong... it's not by chance that every time that GOD manifested Him self the world called him a murderer like in Moses, Jesus, Noah, Job, etc....
 
This doesn't sound right at all. You have to remember, Yahweh creates his beings with FREE WILL. He would not create someone for the sole purpose of doing evil, and then punish that person for doing the evil. He created Lucifer to be good. But Lucifer chose (by his own free will) to do evil. That is why he will be punished. If even human beings have free will, then of course a superior angel would also have free will.

The difference between Lucifer and a lowly human being is, we have wayyy less intelligence/wisdom/knowledge than he does. And he is immortal. Perhaps his great knowledge is why his sin is inexusable?

Never once you see int the Bible that HE created anything with free-will, free-will doesn't even show in the bible ... but that we (and all things) are predestined you see many times since Genesis to Revelation.
I'll latter open a new topic to talk about this since so many stands on this ground.

If the difference is intelligence and he already had all that glory and saw the glory of GOD and still he chose death what makes think that we are able to choose live?
 
Hello to all...

There is a myth in the world that claims that the DEVIL was once good but than he became evil starting a rebellion against GOD... This myth is also many times used to prove the existence of free will, but the truth is that in no place on scripture we find that... in fact we find the opposite when Christ says:

"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof."
John 8:44


And not only Jesus but John says it too:

[My] little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:
he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:7-8

And as we know GOD is perfect, and if HE had created the Devil to be good but then he'd became bad than GOD would have failed just like HE would have failed if he had came for Israel (by flesh terms) and been rejected... because HE promised Abraham that HE would save his descended , and if Israel (in flesh terms) were his sons than HE would have failed has Paul teaches us ...


"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.""
Rm 9:5-7

If HE made a plan that could fail than HE would not be perfect... so if if HE intnded that the Devil was ever good and he became bad HE failed with the Devil... can this be???

But even HE says:

"See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc;"
Is 54:16

... about the wicked he says the same:

"Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
Pv 16:4


All scriptures shows this... and nowhere we see the opposite... so what reasons exists so that one could resist this giving glory to the devil?

So even the Devil has its own end and purpose in GOD's plan... he is not an accident or a rebellion, he is what he was made for.
The other option would result in "GOD failed"... and that is not possible.


Sargento: Can you tell me how you can to your conclusion about these "myths" that you say ? It is always a concern when I see a few Scripture quotes, lifted out of context. I like to see what others Bible scholars think as well, before I come up with my own idea of what a passage or new thinkinking about a subject that I believe I have come up with. As I understand about satan I find no one other than you has suggested such an idea as your understand. Perhaps if you give some more detail it might help in understanding what you base your conclusion.

When I find my thinking is not very close to what outer Bible teachers say, I review my thinking more, and re-read other's idea's, I find where I have made a mistake. Perhaps you might want to revisit your thinking here, also. Blessings.


farout
 
Sergento: I have one more thought. The angels have free will too. YAHWEH has created us and angel's with free will also. Would that not explan satan as well?


farout
 
Did Satan dupe God?
The concept of freewill seems to me to imply that God created and the creature or creation got out of hand.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.


Merriam-Webster:
Definition of FREE WILL
1: voluntary choice or decision
2:
freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Scripture often tells us to make a choice(choose this day whom ye shall serve).
Scripture also tells us:
KJV
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Youngs literal
Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
NIV(2011)
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Romans 11:32 seems to me to imply that our choice to be obedient is not entirely in our own power.

These also tend to downplay the role of freewill in my decision making:
Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Prov 21:1 Man's goings are of the LORD, how can a man then understand his own way?
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart of man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are scriptures I meditate on when I pray for unbelievers.
I am not really lazy but I don't like expending energy without results and if I believed we had freewill I doubt I would bother praying for the lost at all.

John 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


My own personal testimony is that I was dragged into the kingdom kicking and screaming as it was neither my will or intention to have anything to do with God or Jesus.But a group of believers prayed for me(for 4 years) with total disregard for my will or intentions and God moved because of their faith.I don't feel that I have a choice anymore because life without God is just to boring.

I acknowledge those scriptures that seem to imply that we have freewill but I have found that many things that seem a contradiction in scripture is really just our limited scope of what we call reality.So there are explanations but you have to step out of our linear time/space bound logic.
 
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The nature of love renders it impossible for there to be any predestined salvation. God desires that we love Him. Love cannot be forced, invented, predetermined, predestined. No-one will ever convince me that the love I have for my Saviour came about without my own personal choice to do so. Voluntarily freely and decidedly given why? Yes, because He first loved me. That is the nature of love. A voluntarily self sacrificing giving of the heart. mind, body, soul to God.
It is claimed by hard-core Calvinists that because God planned that His creation would love Him, that necessarily means a lack of choice. Not so. God can still be sovereign despite the unwillingness for most of His created beings on this planet rejecting Him. This does not mean a failure on God's part, in fact, quite the opposite. It is a total victory on His part because He, in granting us the freedom to choose whether to love Him or not, is to His glory in that He was willing to take the risk of rejection. There is no glory in enforcing any response just to please Himself. His granting of freedom is an expression of His love. We do the same. We do not force our wives, husbands, to love us, we woo them and give them the freedom to respond voluntarily. The alternative is rape. God does not spiritualy rape mankind and force them into servitude. Nor does He enforce rejection. Simply said, it isn't love.
 
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