Sanctification vs Justification

[B-A-C]

Your focus about wrong behavior is misdirected.
Whilst neither of us are justifying wrong behavior,

The Bible calls "wrong behavior" sin. To call it anything else is misdirected.
Sin means missing the mark. Wrong behavior is missing the mark. Saying there is no penalty for sin is justifying sin.
This is what atheists and Universalists believe. The athiest says There is no sin because there is no God. The Universalist says there is no sin because Jesus took away the sin of the whole world
2,000 years ago. The antimonianist says they can not sin but they can do bad behavior. This is redefining sin, but sin is sin no matter what you call it.
If you murder, it's sin. If you fornicate, it' sin. If you commit adultery, it's sin.

According to you, keeping the 10 commandments is sin. Yet the Father, Jesus and Paul told us to keep them. Who is misdirected here?
Then you contradict yourself by saying unbelief is the only sin we can commit.
According to you, Christians cannot sin, yet the Father, Jesus, Paul, John and James all say we can. Who is misdirected here?
According to you, "he who has suffered in the flesh" has ceased from sin, yet you contradict this by saying no sanctification or mortification (discipline) of the flesh is required. Who is misdirected here?
According to you "a little leaven puffs up the whole loaf", yet you say you don't sin, the rest of us admit we do sin. Who is puffed up? Who is misdirected here?
According to you, we are judging you because we say "you also sin" (like us) yet you say no I don't sin. Which one has the bigger log in their eye? Who is misdirected here?
You have been given dozens of verses over and over again about sanctification, Christian sin, and the commandments, yet none of them apply to you. Who is misdirected?

Can you show me on single verse that says the definition of sin changed somewhere? i already know about the ones that say we are freed from the penalty of sin, you
don't have to post those. But do you have any that say something like "adultery used to be sin, but now it isn't" so it's OK to do it.
Do you have any verses at all that say "don't love your neighbor", "don't tell the truth", "don't love God", if not... you are misdirected.
Do you have any verses that say "don't keep the 10 commandments" or do you just have verses that say we aren't under the law anymore? (sacrifice, circumcision, priests, etc...)
Did Jesus say he came to do away with the law, or fulfill the law? Fulfilling the law means he gives us grace when we sin.
Doing away with the law, means we can't sin. Who is misdirected here?
The Bible says, walk in a manner worthy, don't be a hypocrite. Fight the good fight, run the good race, flee from sin, love one another, pray for one another,
bear good fruit, bear one another's burdens, forgive one another, yet you say doing these things are wrong. Who is misdirected?
Loving one another is a commandment Jesus gave. Yet you say following the commandments is wrong. Who is misdirected?

 

[Barny]

Barny if we are freed from sin we are freed entirely, our physical behaviour is also freed from sinning entirely. If we are freed from sin we are freed from sin. To say that our physical behaviour is no sign that we are freed from sin is not true. If we are free we are free in everyway you look at this. Being free is being set apart from so that we are no longer are particpating in the things we have been freed from. This is not complicated but very simple to understand. Your enterpretation is compilicated, but the fulness of the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.

Hi papajim,

I have to disagree with you. The doctrine you follow is a complicated one that leads away from the simplicity that is in Christ.
You speak of perfect obedience to the law but then all those who follow this same doctrine have admitted that they do not perfectly obey the law, yet.

This doctrine you follow therefore rejects righteousness by faith until evidence of perfect obedience to the law is seen in the physical.
And what is one's position under your doctrine if they're not perfectly obeying the law?

If we look like the world, eat and drink like the world, talk like the world, live like the world, dress like the world and sin like the world, we are of the world.

According to the doctrine you follow "perfect" obedience to the law is required as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness. And as we see above in your quote, anyone without this evidence is "of the world", and therefore enemies of God (James 4:4). They are condemned/lost.
Why?
Because they do not have works of the law as evidence of righteousness.
This doctrine sounds very similar to the law of sin and death that Christ set man free from, Rom 8:2.

Please read my last post again and compare the complicated doctrine you follow with the simplicity that is in Christ. The gospel is simply to believe in Jesus, and thus we are justified without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

we believe that there is no limit to those changes, and you do believe there are limits to those changes, so what are you minimum behaviour changes?

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved without any consideration of his physical behavior. This is God's example to mankind of what is grace. This means there are no minimum behavior changes needed to be saved.

But as you and some others here have been claiming that physical evidence of obedience to the law is required of Christians as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness, then that is why I have questioned this contradiction of the gospel of grace.

You yourself have said "perfect" obedience to the law is required as evidence. Yet you have not attained this yourself.
This causes problems for you though as only past sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25. There is no more sacrifice for any subsequent sins, and yet you are still judging yourself a sinner under the law.

And it's this latter part that is the problem. You said you judge yourself by the law.
And what does scripture say about those who turn to judging righteousness through the law?
Gal 2:18
if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. Sinner.
And to do this is really being "of the world".

Note Heb 10:26
For if we sin (judging righteousness through the law and therefore making ourselves a transgressor, Gal 2:18.) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, (gospel of Christ) there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is a very dangerous doctrine you are following.

.

In just about every case an action is followed by faith or an action is followed by unbelief and action is works. The paralytic was forgiven and what followed was getting up and walking. This took faith it also took believing in Jesus so here you have both imputed and imparted righteousness. "Faith without works is dead" I know you think that believing is works, but the real truth is believing produces works. The cripple could not have been healed if he did not get up and walk..

Then why have you not lived in perfect obedience to the law since the day you received Christ?
And how about your health? Do you have any physical ailments after receiving Christ?

Under the doctrine you follow nobody would be saved as there would be no physical evidence of the so called "imparted" righteousness you claim is necessary to show that we are not of the world.

I find that you are filled with unbelief, because you do not believe that Jesus freed you from sin in your physical behaviour, brother if you are free believe it. You also believe that nobody has achieved this behavioural perfection, who told you this, How do you know this? Who is the judge you or God? Yes we are all guilty before God and yes we have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God but where, anywhere, in God's word does it say we have to continue this way? I find that contrary to your belief, that through faith we can walk as Jesus walked and we through faith can overcome as He overcame, this is all physical behaviour. Jesus overcame the world by His faith in God, His physical behaviour proved what He believed, He showed us the way, why are you filled with doubt?
There is so much scritpure to support this, but because of your unbelief you can't see it. Your vision has been clouded through unbelief. If you are free walk in your freedom, live as though you are free.
You say that we are lukewarm through our works of the law, But mind you, that it is not our works but His works, working in us. I find that you are lukewarm because you do not have to excersise faith to overcome the world you say you believe and that is good enough. The devil believes and trembles. Those that believe in Jesus do overcome the world through faith, not just believing but exercising that belief, so that we are not hypoctires, but walk as we believe not the hearers of the law, but doers of the law will be justified. What seperates us from the world, just believing, or acting up our belief? If we just believe and our actions do not follow our belief how will the world know that there is a difference in us? Are we not a witness that God has freed us from sin in Christ? Is not that the light that is in us?
You say that if we believe in Jesus we cannot sin, sin is in our physical behaviour, but if we truly believe, we make this statement come true in us, so that we cannot sin for we believe we have been completely seperated from it. This all comes through extrodinary faith, the faith of Jesus, faith that overcomes the world.

Again, like I said before, I have spoken to others who follow the same doctrine you do and they admit they have yet to attain perfect obedience to the law. They, like you , believe that one day, by faith, they will attain this perfection.

But in fact what this doctrine you follow is saying is that after you received Christ, justified and righteous in him, by faith, you then later forget what manner of man you were after you started following a doctrine that said you must show perfect works of the law as evidence of righteousness. This is what James 1:23; refers to in saying to be "doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves".

When we start mixing grace and works of the law, then this is unbelief.

Please consider again the simplicity in the gospel of Christ.
Believe in Jesus and we will have life everlasting, John 3:16
Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
Believing in Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
His commandment to us is to believe in Jesus, 1 John 3:23
We overcome the world by believing in Jesus, 1 John 5:5
We are born of God when we believe in Jesus, 1 John 5:1

 

[sintheticg]

Excellent post barny. Romans 6 is beautiful, so beautiful I memorized the entire chapter. We live in grace, our desire is to do right, but our instinct is to do wrong. Thus we can thank the Lord Jesus Christ for his mercy and grace everyday.

Lastly I'd like to add, faith is not a power we tap into. So many get trapped in a works type bondage believing "if I only had more faith, I'd get the victory over this sin" but doesn't that bring the work of the cross down while puffing up ourselves? Now if we do get victory and a brother struggle, we believe we have more faith than he, he begin comparing our works to others rather than fixing our eye on the Lord Jesus Christ. We can no longer walk on the water with our eyes elsewhere.

 

[DHC]

According to you, keeping the 10 commandments is sin. Yet the Father, Jesus and Paul told us to keep them. Who is misdirected here?

Hello B-A-C.

Read your post #121.

Although your post was a reply to Barny, I hope you do
not mind if I ask you a question regarding this post?

You stated the following in your post to Barny;

"According to you, keeping the 10 commandments is sin.
Yet the Father, Jesus and Paul told us to keep them."

I wish to draw attention to your statement that, we are told to keep
the "10 commandments".

So B-A-C, it is logical to assume that when you read a verse
such as the one below;

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

You make the substitution "the ten commandments" for
the phrase "My commandments". If this is the case B-A-C,
there exists an apparent logical paradox in your theology.
It is this theological paradox that I wish to address.

We will take the seventh commandment as our example.

7. Thou shall not commit adultery

This is the very letter of the Law of Moses, there is no
dispute with this command, it is clear and precise. If you
have sexual relations with another man's wife you have
committed adultery.

Now B-A-C, let us quote from the command that Jesus gave.

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with
lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Here is the paradox, if a person has lust for another man's wife
but has not acted upon the desire. Then by the letter of the law,
the law of Moses, the seventh commandment. Which is one of the
"ten commandments" that you quoted B-A-C. This person has not
broken the seventh command, hence not committed adultery. But if
the command that Jesus gave concerning the act of lust is the correct
command, then that person is indeed guilty of the sin of adultery.

This is the paradox that is created within the mind of anyone who
reads your post.They have obeyed one commandment but have
transgressed against this same commandment at another level.
Both commandments address the very same sin of adultery.
A person is obeying the written law but at the same time breaking
the very same law at a non physical level.

Here is the quotation again;

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Does "My commandments" refer to the ten commandments,
the literal, written "Law of Moses" or does the phrase refer to some
other commandments?

Do not say B-A-C, that we do not have to obey the ten
commandments because we are saved by Grace. Since your
statement which I will print again, states that a Christian
must obey the ten commandments.

"According to you, keeping the 10 commandments is sin.
Yet the Father, Jesus and Paul told us to keep them."

Please resolve this paradox B-A-C.

What are the "commandments"?

 

[brakelite]

Yes, Papajim that answer is correct.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our
bodies washed with pure water.

Maybe DHC it is the way in which we write our thoughts, but papajims post is probably the clearest...and precisely what we have been saying all along. So glad you agree!

 

[Barny]

Excellent post barny. Romans 6 is beautiful, so beautiful I memorized the entire chapter. We live in grace, our desire is to do right, but our instinct is to do wrong. Thus we can thank the Lord Jesus Christ for his mercy and grace everyday.

Lastly I'd like to add, faith is not a power we tap into. So many get trapped in a works type bondage believing "if I only had more faith, I'd get the victory over this sin" but doesn't that bring the work of the cross down while puffing up ourselves? Now if we do get victory and a brother struggle, we believe we have more faith than he, he begin comparing our works to others rather than fixing our eye on the Lord Jesus Christ. We can no longer walk on the water with our eyes elsewhere.

Hi sinthecitg,

And welcome to Talk Jesus.

Yes, praise God for His love for us.
And whilst we are all at different stages of maturity, you are correct that we should never be judging each others righteousness by our behavior.

blessings

 

[Barny]

The Bible calls "wrong behavior" sin. To call it anything else is misdirected.
Sin means missing the mark. Wrong behavior is missing the mark.

Hi B-A-C,

Yes, sin can also be described as missing the mark.
And what mark is that?
Below is a earlier post I made that defines sin as per God's word. And using God's definitions of sin we can see here whether Christians are missing the mark, as you say.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:

1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin. We are not missing the mark here.

2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either. We are not missing the mark here.

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1 John 5:17 Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. So here we do not sin. We are not missing the mark here.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1 John 3:4 This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.
Christians are not missing the mark here as we're not under the law.

Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” (Romans 3:19, 20).
"the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians), but for......the ungodly and sinner" (1 Tim 1:9.
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).

So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"? Can we be judged as missing the mark?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Romans 6:6.
Hence we see in 1 Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.

Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.

Consider also 1 Peter 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.

ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

Jesus truly set us free from sin, (John 8:36).<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Barny]

Barny, you must not believe that Christians participate in the divine nature: 2 Peter 1:4 "Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

Christians do partake of the divine nature. Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3.) and we are thus righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), and perfected (Heb 10:14).

But I understand that your view is that we need to see physical evidence of this divine nature as evidence of salvation.
I'm curious how much evdience will be needed.
Is it a perfect physical lifestyle that will prove that we are partakers?
Or is half way to perfect acceptable?

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite,

You are contradicting yourself, hence I'll make some comments on your post to clarify our differing opinions.

You point out that I am not able to be perfect in the physical, and you describe this as being "unable to obey God".

Hi Barny.
You have left out an all important sentence from the beginning of my post, which if you had read and wuoted, may have brought a little more light to your understanding. Allow me to repeat the missing sentence.

It would seem Barny that what you firmly and irresolutely believe is the following.


What I was pointing out was not that you were unable to be perfect in the physical, (I never mentioned perfection, that is your word) : what I was saying was that from my reading of all your posts, what you believe is the following:

• Though Barny may lust, lie, or steal, this is not counted as sin because the Bible says Barny cannot sin.

• It is impossible for Barny to not lie, lust, or steal, because his flesh is uncontrolled and unable to obey God.

• The devil is more powerful than God ....the devils power to entice Barny to lust is greater than God's power to strengthen Barny to refrain from lust.
• And something else I will add not in my previous post....That when the Bible mentions sin in the NT, it doesn't actually mean sin, by definition transgression against the law of God (a NT definition btw), but it means some ethereal spiritual allegory, without any recognition of the literal rendering.

You said elsewhere Barny : It would be foolish for anybody to then turn back to the law, in any way, to determine righteousness. To do this one would only make themselves a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18; as they would fail to perfectly obey the law.
But Barny, that is precisely why the law as given! To determine righteousness, to point out sin. The law is a mirror to the heart, it cannot clean the heart, but as you say, it points out one's need of a Saviour, which is why God gave us His law. "For by the law comes the knowledge of sin". In our reading of the law, we realise our deficiency, and run to Christ who covers us with His grace and mercy. It isn't about our looking to the law to find the means to obey, for that we look to Christ. "If a man asks for a fish, will He give him a stone?"

But, you yourself are likewise not perfect in the physical, and you never will be.
Your like the pot calling the kettle, "black".
And thus, by your own words, you condemn yourself through the doctrine you follow which demands evidence of "imparted righteousness" or else your condemned/lost.

Aagain, you are revealing your ignorance of what the gospel is. You only accept half of the story. You have accepted the sacrifice made on your behalf, but reject the continuing ministry by Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, also on your behalf.

Those who follow the doctrine of "imparted righteousness" are a hearer of the word and not a doer. They are like "a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was". James 1:23-24.

This, coming from you, simply doesn't make sense. You claim you cannot sin. That obedience is unnecessary, only faith. But you charge that I am a hearer only and not a doer? What kind of reverse phsychological obtusensss are you tryiing to pull here?

Such people receive the truth of the gospel and are saved by grace, but, they then forget that their faith is counted for righteousness and then they turn to doctrines that say they are unrighteous unless they show evidence of "imparted righteousness" through works of the law.
Those who follow the "imparted righteousness" doctrine are only deceiving themselves, as described in James 1:22

Yet it is James himself who says that faith without works is dead!!!! And don't give me that old comeback that the work we are to do is to believe. Please. James is not saying that faith without faith is dead.

So, whilst I admit that I'm not perfect in this physical state, I walk by faith and not by sight and therefore do not judge righteousness by works of the law (the evidence of so called "imparted righteousness).




Any improvements in our behavior is through our ever growing trust in God which can result in changes in our lives.

Yes Barny, and those improvements that come to us from God as a result of our faith is imparted righteousness.

But this is no basis for judging whether we are righteous or not, as we already have righteousness through our faith.

We have imputed righteousness yes. And that solely is the basis of our justification. That solely is the basis for our judging ourselves whether we are accepted by God or not. But that does not absolve us from obedience.

Unfortunately you demand physical evidence (works of the law) of "imparted righteousness" before you will accept that in Christ believers are righteous. And following such doctrines is like "a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was", James 1:23-24

Please heed God's warning in James 1:22.
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. We are not judged by our beliefs.

I offered some points on another thread you may have missed. I pointed out that God is love. I also pointed out that God is righteousness. (Jehovah Tsidkenu). I added that God's commandments are righteousness. And also that loving God and our neighbour and obedience to His commandments are synonymous. Therefore Barny the question is how can obedience to the law not be a requirement under the NT? It was not the laws of God which were nailed to the cross, for the laws of God are a reflection of His character. It was not God's character which was nailed to the cross. It was ours!

The problem Barny was never with the law. As you have said previously and I agree with you, the law is holy, just, and good. So there was nothing wrong with the law in that it needed to be changed, abrogated, or altered. The problem is with us. It is our inability to obey that is, or was, the problem. It is our fleshly carnal natures that had to be dealt with. It was those old natures, (the 'old man') that was crucified with Christ. The new man Barny is a different kettle of fish altogether. He is able to obey. How? By the grace and power of God working in his life. You call these 'improvements in behaviour.' We call them imparted righteousness.

The old covenant failed not because God's promises were faulty, but because Israel promised something they were incapable of doing. They promised to obey. Yet God did not ask anyone to promise anything. Yet He still required obedience! All God asked Israel, and in this I wholeheartedly agree with you Barny, and all He asks us to do is to believe. Where we differ Barny you and I and some others on this thread is the purpose of that belief. I am convinced that God's purposes for man have never changed since creation. Obedience! Adam failed. Eve failed. Israel failed. We have all failed. Why? Because of unbelief!!! You do not believe Barny that God is capable of performing that which He has promised!

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make unto you any idols.
3. You shall not take MY name in vain.
4. You shall remember to keep holy My day.
5. You shall honour your father and mother.
6. You shall not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie.
10. You shall not covet.

Promises Barny. Every one of them, to all them that believe! Have you faith Barny?

 

[james1523]

Christians do partake of the divine nature. Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3.) and we are thus righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), and perfected (Heb 10:14).

But I understand that your view is that we need to see physical evidence of this divine nature as evidence of salvation.
I'm curious how much evdience will be needed.
Is it a perfect physical lifestyle that will prove that we are partakers?
Or is half way to perfect acceptable?

So what is the result of partaking of the Divine nature? If we took a cat's nature and inserted it into a dog... won't the dog behave like a cat?
Do you deny that partaking of the Divine nature results in improvements in outward behavior? If so, then how can you truly know that you partake of God's nature, if you behave in the same way as you did before salvation?

 

[Barny]

So what is the result of partaking of the Divine nature? If we took a cat's nature and inserted it into a dog... won't the dog behave like a cat?
Do you deny that partaking of the Divine nature results in improvements in outward behavior? If so, then how can you truly know that you partake of God's nature, if you behave in the same way as you did before salvation?

And we often do see improvements in outward behavior.

But as you see this as evidence of "imparted" righteousness and salvation, my question was what level of evidence do you expect we should see?

 

[papajim]

And we often do see improvements in outward behavior.

But as you see this as evidence of "imparted" righteousness and salvation, my question was what level of evidence do you expect we should see?

At a growing level day by day.

 

[Barny]

You claim you cannot sin. That obedience is unnecessary, only faith. But you charge that I am a hearer only and not a doer? What kind of reverse phsychological obtusensss are you tryiing to pull here?
Yet it is James himself who says that faith without works is dead!!!! And don't give me that old comeback that the work we are to do is to believe. Please. James is not saying that faith without faith is dead.
Yes Barny, and those improvements that come to us from God as a result of our faith is imparted righteousness. We have imputed righteousness yes. And that solely is the basis of our justification. That solely is the basis for our judging ourselves whether we are accepted by God or not. But that does not absolve us from obedience.
It is God that demands evidence of our faith. We are judged by our works. We are not judged by our beliefs.

We disagree with each other's understanding on many scriptures.

So what level of obedience to the law do you think is required as evidence of "imparted" righteousness and salvation?

 

[Barny]

At a growing level day by day.

This is not a specific explaination supported with scripture.

The gospel on the other hand is very simple and specific, and repeated often throughout scripture: believe in Jesus.

 

[papajim]

This is not a specific explaination supported with scripture.

The gospel on the other hand is very simple and specific, and repeated often throughout scripture: believe in Jesus.

Sure it is Barny, day by day our relationship grows with Christ, and day by day we become more like Him through a relationship and faith.
All this comes with believing in Jesus.
You want simplicity Barny, I will give you simplicity.
Isn't the whole gospel message about love? If we believe in Jesus won't we grow to love Jesus and don't we love Him because He first loved us? His righteousness is love a true agape love that is an unselfish, un onditional love not a fleshly love.
I would like you to do something for me Barny, everywhere the law says "thou shall not" want you to put love says "thou shall not" because this is the truth of the matter. Dosen't agape love only come from God, and dosen't He want to impart that love to us so that we will also love with agape love? Isn't that what this is all about,a love relationship with the almighty God and out brothers and sisters around us?
If you believe in Jesus you will also believe all there is about Jesus and by beholding Him you will become changed. All of this comes with believing in Jesus!!!

 

[james1523]

And we often do see improvements in outward behavior.

But as you see this as evidence of "imparted" righteousness and salvation, my question was what level of evidence do you expect we should see?

If improvement in outward behavor is not due to God's righteousness then what is it from? Our self efforts? satan?
God's nature is righteous. So if we partake His nature it is the same as partaking His righteousness. The degree of righteousness will depend upon the extent that we partake of His nature.

 

[B-A-C]

Although your post was a reply to Barny, I hope you do
not mind if I ask you a question regarding this post?

You stated the following in your post to Barny;

"According to you, keeping the 10 commandments is sin.
Yet the Father, Jesus and Paul told us to keep them."

I wish to draw attention to your statement that, we are told to keep
the "10 commandments".

So B-A-C, it is logical to assume that when you read a verse
such as the one below;

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

You make the substitution "the ten commandments" for
the phrase "My commandments". If this is the case B-A-C,
there exists an apparent logical paradox in your theology.
It is this theological paradox that I wish to address.

We will take the seventh commandment as our example.

7. Thou shall not commit adultery

This is the very letter of the Law of Moses, there is no
dispute with this command, it is clear and precise. If you
have sexual relations with another man's wife you have
committed adultery.

Now B-A-C, let us quote from the command that Jesus gave.

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with
lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Here is the paradox, if a person has lust for another man's wife
but has not acted upon the desire. Then by the letter of the law,
the law of Moses, the seventh commandment. Which is one of the
"ten commandments" that you quoted B-A-C. This person has not
broken the seventh command, hence not committed adultery. But if
the command that Jesus gave concerning the act of lust is the correct
command, then that person is indeed guilty of the sin of adultery.

One of the commands Jesus gave us, was to love one another.

John 15:17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

Another was to love God also.

Matt 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Would you agree that John 15:17; and Matt 22:39; are saying the same thing?
One is a command from Jesus, but the other is a command from God.

Jesus goes on to say that you are doing these two things, you are keeping the 10 commandments. (the law)
Paul explains this as well.

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Paul explains that if you are murdering, or stealing from, or committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, you aren't loving them.
So yes, committing adultery still applies.

Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?
So yes, I think John 14:15; that you quoted above applies to this as well.

 

[B-A-C]

I have to disagree with you. The doctrine you follow is a complicated one that leads away from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Perhaps you are referring to the verse below.

2 Cor 11:3; But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Following Christ is simple. Devotion to Christ isn't always so simple. Yet both are the same thing.
If you are devoted to someone, you follow them, listen to them, obey them, love them, learn about them, love them, and basically live your life for them.
It's easy to say we are Christians, but it isn't always easy to live like one.

 

[spirit1st]

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom_9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Jesus writes the eternal laws in our heart ! Love and Faith !

Under love we will not hurt others , unless we must? We will try to help all if we can out of Love and as unto our LORD JESUS !
Under Faith ? We trust in our Lord and do that which is pleasing to Him !


2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 

[DHC]

So yes, committing adultery still applies.

Hello B-A-C.

You have not provided a solution to the very obvious legal paradox.

The written law states;

7. Thou shall not commit adultery

So, if I do not commit the act of adultery I have obeyed the law.

Then we have the following, rather disturbing instruction from
Jesus;

27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust
for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is different to the written law, as this involves the thought
process itself. It is the act of adultery committed within the
mind of a person. So on the one hand I have obeyed, but at
the same time I have disobeyed. The legal paradox.

B-A-C, which law do you advocate?

I believe that advertising the seventh commandment is very
deceptive, as it deludes a person into a pattern of thought.
A pattern of thought which promotes the idea that a physical
obedience is the required benchmark. For example, I have slept
with no man's wife, God has no issue with me, I am righteous in
God's eyes. Jesus came for the lost, the sinners, which I am not,
for I am obedient.

When the truth is, the person above has committed adultery
countless times in thought. They are in desperate need of
reconciliation, their thought life has condemned them already.

How to solve this legal paradox?