Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Vicarious Law-Keeping?

NetChaplain

Active
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,490
Romans 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.” There has been much discussion of the meaning of the word "end" here. Let us see if Scripture does not clear up the matter for us. When Christ died, He bore for Israel the curse of the Law, for they, and they alone, were under Law. Divine Law, being broken, does not ask for future good conduct on the part of the transgressor; but for his death,--and that only. Now Christ having died, all the claims of the Law against that nation which had been placed under law were completely met and ended. So that even Jews could now believe, and say, "I am dead to the Law!"

To him that believes, therefore, Jew or Gentile, Christ, dead, buried, and risen, is the end of law for righteousness,--in the sense of law's disappearance from the scene! Law does not know, or take cognizance of believers! We read in Chapter Seven (verse 6) that those who had been under the Law were discharged from the Law, brought to nought, put out of business (katargeo), with respect to the Law! The Law has nothing to do with them, as regards righteousness.

The Scripture must be obeyed with the obedience of belief: "Ye are not under law [not under that principle] but under grace" [the contrary principle]. "Ye are brought to nothing from Christ [literally, "put out of business from Christ"], ye who would be justified by the Law; ye are fallen away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Paul writes in Hebrews 7:18, 19: "There is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment, because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw near unto God." Again, "Christ abolished in His flesh the enmity [between Jew and Gentile], even the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15); again, speaking as a Hebrew believer, Paul says, "Christ blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross" (Col 2:14).

If these Scriptures do not set forth a complete closing up of any believer's account toward the Law, or to the whole legal principle, I know nothing of the meaning of words.

The words Christ is the end of the Law, cannot mean Christ is the "fulfillment of what the law required." The Law required obedience to precepts--or death for disobedience. Now Christ died! If it be answered, that before He died He fulfilled the claims of the Law, kept it perfectly, and that this law-keeping of Christ was reckoned as over against the Israelite's breaking of the Law, then I ask, Why should Christ die? If the claims of the Law were met in Christ's earthly obedience, and if that earthly life of obedience is "reckoned to those who believe" the curse of the Law has been removed by "vicarious law-keeping." Why should Christ die?

Now this idea of Christ keeping the Law for "us" (for they will include us among the Israelites! although the Law was not given to us Gentiles), is a deadly heresy, no matter who teaches it. Paul tells us plainly how the curse of the Law was removed: "Christ redeemed us,” (meaning Jewish believers), "from the curse of the Law, having become a curse, is seen in Deuteronomy 21:23: "He that is hanged is accursed of God." It was on the cross, not by an "earthly life of obedience,” that Christ bore the Law's curse.

There was no law given "which could make alive,” Paul says; "otherwise righteousness would have been by it." Therefore those who speak of Christ as taking the place of fulfilling the Law for us,--as "the object at which the Law aimed" (Alford); or, "the fulfillment or accomplishment of the Law" (Calvin); give the Law an office that God did not give it. There is not in all Scripture a hint of the doctrine that Christ's earthly life--His obedience as a man under the [Mosaic] Law, is "put to the account" of any sinner whatsoever! That obedience, which was perfect, was in order that He might "present Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot unto God,” as a sin-offering. It also was in order to His sacrificial death, as "a curse," that Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). William R. Newell, Romans, Verse by Verse
 
Hello NetChaplain.

Appreciate your input.

You did say;


"Now this idea of Christ keeping the Law for "us" (for they will include us among the Israelites! although the Law was not given to us Gentiles), is a deadly heresy, no matter who teaches it."

Never understood legalism, never will.

 
That obedience, which was perfect, was in order that He might "present Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot unto God,” as a sin-offering.


This seems to help resolve a question I had in my mind. I grew up in church and was always around the word. But only recently has it became so real to me in a way im very thankful for. I for one had recently rested in my mind that Christ fullfilled the law that I couldnt keep but through more reading, it seemed to me that that wasnt a very good explaination.

David777, as for law keeping, maybe I can tell you my experience. About 2yrs ago I had really found myself far from the Lord. I prayed for help and not long after my entire life turned upside down. Even my thinking went haywire. It was as though I had absolutely nothing to rest on in my mind. The bible didnt even read the same. The only joy I had in my life, literally, was hearing the word or reading it. So that's all i did for hours a day. The problem soon popped up when I would read the gospels and heard what Jesus was asking for for salvation. Even going through the old testament would have me thinking I had to keep sabbaths or even food laws! I soon put every ounce of effort into trying to meet what i had read in the sermon on the mount. Maybe I thought this would please God and fix my problem, i dont know. After some time I realized the sermon on the mount was to prove to me that im a sinner, that helped. But what really did it for me was hearing that Christ paid the debt that no one could pay. This sounds so obvious I know, and I would even have said that myself years earlier, but it was as though a burden lifted. The gospel now made sense to me rather than just being memorized. For me, the law truly was a school master to lead me to Christ. Now I love hearing the word. The doctrines make more sense now and it seems so much easier to talk to others about the things of God. Obviously were not all the same but that was my experience with law keeping.
 
Hi Jason - I remember being raised with the Ten Commandments on the school wall, which means the average person didn't know that the T.Cs. and the entire Mosaic Law was to Israel only, which even now is not in effect for them; even though many Israelites may think otherwise.

The idea with Adam's disobedience to his covenant with God (Gen 2:17), Israel's disobedience and the remnant of mankind is the intention of God to have fellowship with man only through His Son. This was His and Christ's intention even before creation, evidenced by the New Covenant in His blood (Luke 22:20), which is the "Everlasting Covenant" made between the Father and Son from eternity past (Heb 13:20).
 
Hello Jason h.

I rejoice and rejoice again, your experience was true and wrought
by the Holy Spirit. You are seeing Jesus and the Gospel so much
more clearly now.

Thanks so much Jason h.
 
Hi Jason - I remember being raised with the Ten Commandments on the school wall, which means the average person didn't know that the T.Cs. and the entire Mosaic Law was to Israel only, which even now is not in effect for them; even though many Israelites may think otherwise.

I had not even considered that the law was meant for israelites only. But that makes sense after reading Deut 4:5-8

See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

Thanks for the encouraging words david777. I initially thought the exact opposite and thought I was done for, cast away by God. Slowly and surely He proved to me His mercy and compassion even while being so rebellious and having horribly wrong thoughts towards Him. This is how I know from experience that there was definately nothing in me to merit His care. I was actually against Him and He still loved me. I realize it is His work and I cant add to it to complete it.
 
I had not even considered that the law was meant for israelites only. But that makes sense after reading Deut 4:5-8

Excellent example of Dispensational theology, which is a vehicle for spiritual growth teachings of Scripture.
 
Tell me what is so wrong with the Ten Commandments. They are there for our good. Thats all. Is it alright for me to kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, cheat, have other gods, use Gods name in vain, make idols. If you guys were sincere you would admit that these are written fir our good. from a God of love.

Also if yo guys were sincere you would admit that the problem lies in the 4 th commandment. Remember theres 10 not a ten percent discount.

Please if you guys choose to believe a lie do not teach others to do so.
 
Tell me what is so wrong with the Ten Commandments. They are there for our good.

The Ten Commandments and the ceremonial laws - which includes the entirety of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Israel - were for their good, just as everything God has done, from Adam until now is for the good of His people.

First, it must be realized the Law covenant was to Israel only and that it has, since Christ finished it (John 19:30), given way to that which it only foreshadowed (Col 2:17; Heb 8:5; 10:1). The good the Law brought was God showing His love to Israel through it that He would be providing redemption through His Son's sacrifice, which was an ominous scarlet thread woven in type through, not only the Law, but the entire Old Testament.

Their was only one requirement for those who were under the Law - death for disobedience. Since Christs' perfect life of obedience qualified Him for sacrifice, redemption was procured through Him being "obedient unto death, even the death of the cross' (Phil 2:8). "God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3). This broke the curse of everlasting death - through the "Everlasting Covenant" (Heb 13:20).

For the Law to be effective, which was not its intent (Rom 8:3), one would have to obey it perfectly without ever breaking any part of it, which only Christ effected. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (Jam 2:10). To "redeem us from the curse of the law" Christ had to be "made a curse for us" (Gal 3:13).

This redemption also brought deliverance from the curse Adam and Eve incurred to mankind from breaking their covenant with God; "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen 2:16, 17).
 
Last edited:
Simply put the Law points us to our Savior. Is like a mirror that lets us look at our filthyness. Paul aknowledge the Law as good, just and holy. Why cant anybody else?
What would this society be like without laws? Imagine that right. Us being left to ourselves would not be a good thing. Actually turn on the news and se what society who dont go by rules live and axts of senseless crime they commit. Now how much more us who are trying to live right need laws to follow?
 
To be justified, means to be cleared of all guilt, to be declared innocent. This is a free gift from God to us, by the blood of our saviour, impossible to earn by any deed's we do. This being said, there are still standards we must live by demanded of God.

In the same chapter of Galatians 5 quoted by the original poster says:

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If we are lead by the Spirit we are not under the law. If we were led by the Spirit we would at least be seeking to repent from the works of the flesh listed here, which states, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness is using the grace of God not to repent but as a license to sin.

I am probably making this post in vain so I'll just leave it with these verses.


Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Who are the 12 tribes of Isreal?

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
If we are lead by the Spirit we are not under the law. If we were led by the Spirit we would at least be seeking to repent from the works of the flesh listed here, which states, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Hi WordinTruth and God's blessings to you and your Family! At present not even the Jews are under the Law, for it has been superseded.

I agree about repentance because it's the primary walk of those who are Spirit-led and "they which do such things" are the unsaved, not the saved.
 
Last edited:
If we are lead by the Spirit we are not under the law. If we were led by the Spirit we would at least be seeking to repent from the works of the flesh listed here, which states, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Hi WordinTruth and God's blessings to you and your Family! At present not even the Jews are under the Law, for it has been superseded.

I agree about repentance because it's the primary walk of those who are Spirit-led and "they which do such things" are the unsaved, not the saved.


I agree that those who walk after the Spirit are not under the law, if we were under the law we would be judged by the law. If we don't receive Christs righteousness in the place of our filthy rags we have no hope. I'm just concerned with those who think they can walk after the flesh and not be under the law. Which would be turning the grace of God into lasciviousness for all those who use grace as a license to sin. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying...

The LORD bless you.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
Last edited:
I understand what you mean. I was just indicating that nobody now can be under the Law, because it no longer exists.
 
I understand what you mean. I was just indicating that nobody now can be under the Law, because it no longer exists.

That I have to disagree on, seeing that the 10 commandments are the character of God and God is eternal. If the law no longer existed God wouldn't say those who commit fornication, idolaters, murderers, whoremongers, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God. Even in the last chapter of Revelation it says...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We will just have to disagree and leave it at that, God bless.
 
David ....Do you read the Old Covenant at all?

Hello El Hombre viejo.

Being a Gentile, the old covenant does not hold much value
for me. I would read the prophets in preference to Mosaic law.

Do you bother reading the old covenant yourself?
 
That I have to disagree on, seeing that the 10 commandments are the character of God and God is eternal. If the law no longer existed God wouldn't say those who commit fornication, idolaters, murderers, whoremongers, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God. Even in the last chapter of Revelation it says...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We will just have to disagree and leave it at that, God bless.

It's difficult to share our belief's about the Law, which is the Old covenant. Many still do not understand what the Bible teaches about the New covenant and that He has changed and abrogated the priesthood of Aaron, that He might confirm His unchangeable priesthood.

"He taketh away the first (Aaron), that He may establish the second (Christ)" (Heb 10:9). "But this Man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood" (Heb 7:24).

The big difference between the two covenants is that the first was attempting to satisfy the Father by what we do without Christ. The second is us satisfying the Father in Christ.
 
Last edited:
It's difficult to share our belief's about the Law, which is the Old covenant. Many still do not understand what the Bible teaches about the New covenant and that He has changed and abrogated the priesthood of Aaron, that He might confirm His unchangeable priesthood.

"He taketh away the first (Aaron), that He may establish the second (Christ)" (Heb 10:9). "But this Man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood" (Heb 7:24).

The big difference between the two covenants is that the first was attempting to satisfy the Father by what we do without Christ. The second is us satisfying the Father in Christ.


Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

To say the law only refers to the Levitical preisthood is incorrect, and then to say there is no more law when the law also includes the 10 commandments is misleading at best. You should be saying, "the Levitical preisthood no longer exists," then we would be in agreement.
 
It's difficult to share our belief's about the Law, which is the Old covenant. Many still do not understand what the Bible teaches about the New covenant and that He has changed and abrogated the priesthood of Aaron, that He might confirm His unchangeable priesthood.

"He taketh away the first (Aaron), that He may establish the second (Christ)" (Heb 10:9). "But this Man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood" (Heb 7:24).

The big difference between the two covenants is that the first was attempting to satisfy the Father by what we do without Christ. The second is us satisfying the Father in Christ.

Jesus is our king and High Priest.


Genesis 14:18 ESV
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)

Psalm 110:4 ESV
The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 5:6 ESV
as he says also in another place, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 5:10 ESV
being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:20 ESV
where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
 
Back
Top