faithfulservant
Member
HalleluJah! Praise God! Thank you, Jesus!
Once saved can we lose our salvation??
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HalleluJah! Praise God! Thank you, Jesus!
Absolutely. It is not those who have believed and been reconciled but those who believe and have not been reconciled. 2 Cor 5:20, Paul was writing to believers who had not yet been reconciled.
Again, you sense pride in me. To do what is right...to speak the truth in love....to love mercy....to show compassion or forgiveness to those with whom it is within my power to punish or harm....to walk humbly with my God....He is right about everything regardless of what I imagine or concoct in my mind.
If I am somehow not fulfilling these requirements I am blind and lost in sin. Before you can remove my 'mote' you must have whatever blinds you from seeing how to removed from yourself. Else it is not I who err but you and it becomes my duty to serve you and help you understand the truth.
Know this, I am completely convinced that the things that I have been bringing to the forum are not my own ideas born out of my carnal intellect and imagination. I have mistakenly posted a few things openly that should have been dealt with true brothers and sisters on a private message basis or openly disclosed as possibly filled with error as I knew that they could be. Forgive me this wrong as in this case I was doing what seemed right to me which leads to destruction. As I choose to do that which is righteous that is revealed to me and walk in a righteousness as it is revealed then those who were my enemies have been being made to be at peace with me. Since I have been listening to the Spirit from within and desperately trying to sharpen my hearing of his voice, many people have been drawn to me to listen to the words I speak that I credit the Holy Spirit with and their lives are improving.
Here at TJ though it is a different story. There are those who have been attracted to what they see in me but there are many, it seems, who have a different doctrinal view of sorts that cannot be aligned with what I have been shown. And although they are brothers and sisters in Christ, we are separated by a gulf that I don't know yet how to cross. God hasn't shown me.
I have watched as God has worked through me to help others get on the path of righteousness following Jesus. One man had an issue with a piece of electronics, that he was being tempted by an other to use a false method of replacing his damaged equipment by buying insurance fraudulently after the piece broke. The Spirit told me to offer him all the money he needed to be legitimate in his purchase, so I did. He couldn't take the money from me and admitted he had enough to buy a new one already. We used his conscience to get to a point of understanding of what he could and could not do. Ultimately he chose righteousness and God fixed the problem without a dime being spent. The equipment was simply restored without any intervention.
I know that the spirit of God is working among us. Molding and making us into what he would have us.
Peace and Grace be abundantly multiplied unto you.
Gary
faithfulservant
Member
Please see my above responses in blue.
arent all born again believers reconciled?
faithfulservant
Member
The Corinthian church was made up of carnally minded believers who weren't walking in the Spirit of God. That does not mean that they were not saved. The warnings Paul gives are about what may happen if people remain focused on their flesh instead of the Spirit of God.
In other words, we should be mindful that we are wearing Jesus' robe of righteousness. We don't want to soil the robe with a continual walk of following our flesh. God is holy, and He calls us to become holy.
But God understands we're like sheep. He's longsuffering, merciful, and His steadfast love endures forever. However, we must stay close to Jesus as we grow and mature, submitting our vessels for transformation. Will we stumble? Of course. Will Jesus pick us up? Of course. Can we walk away and follow the world instead of Jesus? Yes, if we chose to do so. Consider the parable of the seed sower. The things of the world can choke out our love for Jesus. Paul was simply warning them what a life of fleshly following reaps.
the difference between reconciled and not is being Born again, i believe.
Yes we mature by spirit.
Donnie Ducati
Member
I think the operative word here is saved . If you are truly saved then you will know it, live it, share it, and proclaim it. There are some that seem to think since they went down to an alter one night and repeated a pray there saved. There life afterwords bares no witness of a "born again" experience. If a person is truly born again and has given there life over to Jesus Christ then NO...you can not lose your salvation. People on the outside looking in on the 12 Disciples probably thought Judas was a "believer"...but Jesus knew otherwise.
There are many in the Bible like the Judas' and the Cain's that had a 'said' faith but not a transforming faith. The sheep and the goats are a perfect example of this.
Those that lose it......never really had it. Its more then just believing , Satan and the demons believe and tremble.
If Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again then that must be the deciding factor...not merely a belief.
There are many in the Bible like the Judas' and the Cain's that had a 'said' faith but not a transforming faith. The sheep and the goats are a perfect example of this.
Those that lose it......never really had it. Its more then just believing , Satan and the demons believe and tremble.
If Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again then that must be the deciding factor...not merely a belief.
faithfulservant
Member
No, these people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They were "born again" believers.
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
But, even born again believers can get focused on their flesh instead of the Spirit of God. That's why there are all the warnings in the New Testament (emphasis mine):
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 15:33
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."
Galatians 6:7
7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
James 1:14-16
14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
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Its not reasonable assumption that whole church of corinth was not reconciled. But some people in there may have not been born again and hence needed to be reconciled.
I dont think you can loose your salvation .. Paul says you have been washed and like Jesus says who has bathed does not need except feet to be washed again.
Which is why Paul tells them not to be deceived and follow after Unrightneusness as its an error.
1 Corinthians 6
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Here Paul reminds of them what they were before they were justified and washed and sanctified. This does not appear to be irreversible as it was not of their effort by faith only that made them so. By the spirit of God.
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El Hombre viejo
Member
Interesting!!
I'm really amazed at how often I hear this question nowadays. Until about two years ago I had not heard it in at least twenty five years. I had begun to think it was a settled question among Christians. I guess not. lol
Well when it came up there was some interesting arguments presented so I allowed myself to question my own stance.
Logic says I can just walk away from God and go my own way. Oh Hey!! The world says that too. Still, I could not get that logic past these two verses.
1
Romans 8:37-39 (King James Version)
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2
Romans 11:28-29 (King James Version)
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Ok Ok Three verses
3
Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So in my own mind this is the answer.
You asked Jesus into your hearts, you received the GIFT of salvation. You are on your way to heaven for eternity. Not so bad... But What rewards are you going to reap. Better to be a doorkeeper of heaven than a prince in Hell Oh yeah!!
The question remains though. Now that you're saved...Will you be an overcomer? Or will you be one of the walking wounded being carried into heaven.
I'm really amazed at how often I hear this question nowadays. Until about two years ago I had not heard it in at least twenty five years. I had begun to think it was a settled question among Christians. I guess not. lol
Well when it came up there was some interesting arguments presented so I allowed myself to question my own stance.
Logic says I can just walk away from God and go my own way. Oh Hey!! The world says that too. Still, I could not get that logic past these two verses.
1
Romans 8:37-39 (King James Version)
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2
Romans 11:28-29 (King James Version)
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Ok Ok Three verses
3
Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So in my own mind this is the answer.
You asked Jesus into your hearts, you received the GIFT of salvation. You are on your way to heaven for eternity. Not so bad... But What rewards are you going to reap. Better to be a doorkeeper of heaven than a prince in Hell Oh yeah!!
The question remains though. Now that you're saved...Will you be an overcomer? Or will you be one of the walking wounded being carried into heaven.
MorningStar
Member
I know this is an old topic but I agree that once you are saved you are saved. You might backslide, but in God's perfect plan, there are no lost sheep after he flocks them to his fold. This is part of knowing you can stand strong in the armour of God!!
Thiscrosshurts
Active
We did not have the internet and access to all these awesome study tools 25 years ago.We had to trust that pastor knew what he was talking about and we simply assumed he did his homework.We would be negligent if we did not constantly question our own positions now that it is possible to research the truth more effectively.
I feel that this verse goes well with the ones you already listed.
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
This verse kind of implies that if God draws someone he is able to keep them.
Or even worse ,what if after we can see things from God's point of view(from heaven),we are disappointed by our performance,what a bummer that would be.
MorningStar
Member
Exactly! As Christians we often struggle with what the best course of action would be for our walk with Christ, and regarding those who are not with Christ. Should we be pro-active, or just sit on our duff and do nothing?
For example, the bible says we should kill homosexuals and people who practice astrology. But, do we follow our bible's commandments to kill them, or our own morality that had surpassed the people's morality at that time?
Personally, I know in my heart its not moral to kill homosexuals or astrologers, despite what the bible says. I know it was written in a time that barbarism was a way of life, even in the clergy and church.
It would be immoral to kill homosexuals or astrologers on the simple point that they can be turned to God. It would also be immoral and of bad performance for God to take away their chance of being converted before death.
El Hombre viejo
Member
LOL Too true. I've heard very few preachers tell his flock "Get the book. Check what I'm telling you!" We tend to put our preachers on a pedestal and let them stand alone. Then when they fall. Oh Look Out!!!! We have to constantly LIVE in the WORD and if the pastor does make a mistake, take it up with him. Most don't mind being answerable to other believers Even their own flock.
Ya "for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
God can keep even me saved...:shade:
What about the goats in Matthew 25:41-45 ?
Weren't they punished because they did not do anything practical to help people?
And what about the guys in Matthew 7:21-23 ?
Didn't they do all this wonderful Christian stuff and still get rejected?
Maybe Jesus actually meant for us to follow what he said? and that our willingness to do that plays some role in what happens to us? Matthew 7:24-27
Weren't they punished because they did not do anything practical to help people?
And what about the guys in Matthew 7:21-23 ?
Didn't they do all this wonderful Christian stuff and still get rejected?
Maybe Jesus actually meant for us to follow what he said? and that our willingness to do that plays some role in what happens to us? Matthew 7:24-27
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faithfulservant
Member
I never said someone who follows Him could lose their salvation. I said the scriptures show a very clear warning to people who may stop following Him for one of two reasons:
a) they falter in their faith to the point where they feel they can't be forgiven
b) they follow their flesh so much that they no longer have real relationship with the Lord, thereby walking in wanton sin assuming they can do whatever they please.
I used scriptures which are irrefutable, and quite clear. But I realize these topics are "meat" not "milk." I also realize there are some churches actively teaching against what the LORD's scriptures clearly state.
My advice about getting into His word daily, ministering to the LORD in prayer daily, and submitting to what He wants to do through us for others in servitude and love were most certainly not a command for works; It's the solution to walking in this fallen world!
Plenty of people struggle their way through this Christian life stumbling, in fear, continually feeling defeated. That's not the LORD's will for you.
Victory is available, but it does require a bit of our freewill to manifest.
If someone goes weeks without praying, that's spiritually dangerous. If someone never bothers to read His word, how can they know what God wants them to look like? The word of God is our mirror. We cannot glance in it occaissionally and walk away forgetting what we're supposed to look like.
We are to become transformed, from glory to glory, into the likeness of Jesus as He washes us clean. How does He wash us clean? With His word and His spirit. They work together to supernaturally change us (emphasis mine).
John 13:6-9
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.” 8 Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
a) they falter in their faith to the point where they feel they can't be forgiven
b) they follow their flesh so much that they no longer have real relationship with the Lord, thereby walking in wanton sin assuming they can do whatever they please.
I used scriptures which are irrefutable, and quite clear. But I realize these topics are "meat" not "milk." I also realize there are some churches actively teaching against what the LORD's scriptures clearly state.
My advice about getting into His word daily, ministering to the LORD in prayer daily, and submitting to what He wants to do through us for others in servitude and love were most certainly not a command for works; It's the solution to walking in this fallen world!
Plenty of people struggle their way through this Christian life stumbling, in fear, continually feeling defeated. That's not the LORD's will for you.
Victory is available, but it does require a bit of our freewill to manifest.
If someone goes weeks without praying, that's spiritually dangerous. If someone never bothers to read His word, how can they know what God wants them to look like? The word of God is our mirror. We cannot glance in it occaissionally and walk away forgetting what we're supposed to look like.
We are to become transformed, from glory to glory, into the likeness of Jesus as He washes us clean. How does He wash us clean? With His word and His spirit. They work together to supernaturally change us (emphasis mine).
John 13:6-9
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.” 8 Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
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El Hombre viejo
Member
The key word here is 'KNEW' We are here to get to KNOW JESUS. To get to KNOW the FATHER. We are in a relationship with HIM We're not on a job site.
JESUS was talking to those who tried to work their way into heaven instead of simply getting to know HIM.
We were adopted into the family of GOD. If we reject that and go with religion we've had it.
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Galatians 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
You should look up these verses and read them in context
We talk of being nice to your neighbors, of working works, of obeying the FATHER by working. All well and good BUT. What are you going to do? We have an example; JESUS. What did HE do?
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Its not up to us to decide what we will do or say. Its up to us only to follow JESUS
faithfulservant
Member
There is a doctrine of "relationship" clear in His word. It's a non-negotiable. You cannot serve two masters, correct?
Think about it. Is worshiping the LORD work? That's ridiculous. Now I readily recognize we don't have a natural zeal for the LORD to want to pray and want to study His word. But, if we spend time with Him in prayer, and ask for that fire in our hearts, He is faithful to give it to us. If we study His word, we get to know Him.
A relationship is a two-way street. It takes two. So, if a relationship is works to you, you misunderstand what works are. This is about love.
Think about it. Is worshiping the LORD work? That's ridiculous. Now I readily recognize we don't have a natural zeal for the LORD to want to pray and want to study His word. But, if we spend time with Him in prayer, and ask for that fire in our hearts, He is faithful to give it to us. If we study His word, we get to know Him.
A relationship is a two-way street. It takes two. So, if a relationship is works to you, you misunderstand what works are. This is about love.
MorningStar
Member
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here on prayer. If you read the bible in a fundamentalist/literal sense, then some forms of prayer are different than others. Meaning, if God has a perfect plan, and knows our beginning and end...knows ALL things...then how is our prayer going to really change anything, as all things are already in his 'will', or set in motion in his perfect plan?
In fact, it can be debated that prayer for some kind of 'change', (as opposed to prayer for worship), is actually an action of 'non-faith' as it would be trying to change God's perfect plan.
Even in times of sickness or death, we often pray for some kind of 'change' but we also forget that it was God's will anyway.
In fact, if God has a perfect plan, and knows our beginning and end...then it actually totally contradicts the concept of 'free will'.
So, I guess it comes down to just letting him be in the driver's seat.
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