Grace & Obedience

[jari]

Hi
I have question that's really tricky.

What does it mean to have grace and obey God and His word?

Can christian choose their life style because they are under grace and not law? Or does God expect us to follow His will for us?

Where is grace then?
Isn't it law and works then?

God bless you

 

[eddieb]

i think the tricky part is that somehow grace has been made by man to mean liberty to sin. thats not how it is. The bible says that its the whole duty of man to respect and obey God. However God knows we are not like Him. we are not perfect. and when we are born we are of adams seed. what grace is, is God knowing that we are gonna mess up and instead of giving us what we deserve- our sin is paid for and Jesus already paid the price.
you asked can a christian choose thier lifestyle. my answer is this... is it your life or do you belong to Him who purchaced you with His own blood and suffering? seeing that you dont belong to yourself how then can you choose to take your own path. even more why would you want to when the bible tells us that the way of man is destruction? we dont know whats good for us. or what we need. He does though.
how does He expect us to follow his will? by walking in the spirit. which is a form of obeying. being submissive. complying. we dont have to know and i doubt we ever will know the path. thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. a lamp only gives enough light for the next step or so. it isnt like today we got these 1000 lumen flashlights with led lightbulbs. just going on the analogy of shepherd and sheep he expects us to follow. even when He walked the earth as one of us when he called his 12 he said follow me. by walking in the spirit you are led to do or not to do. he will give you instruction. even if its simple and what we consider miniscule there will be instruction. maybe its just to pray or pray more. or remove things not of him from your life. could be get up and go do...... its way to much on me to try to figure out more than seeing my next few steps.
so in conclusion if you are leaning on him, depending and seeking him then it is NOT works. its by his spirit. not by might nor by power but by his spirit. works is when we dont depend on him. when we try to do it ourselves, and that is self righteousness.

 

[jari]

i think the tricky part is that somehow grace has been made by man to mean liberty to sin. thats not how it is.

grace doesnt mean sin is ok , sin must be avoided. But sin is forgiven, thats what grace is.

so in conclusion if you are leaning on him, depending and seeking him then it is NOT works. its by his spirit. not by might nor by power but by his spirit. works is when we dont depend on him. when we try to do it ourselves, and that is self righteousness.

If you have-to do something thats always works. Obedience is also works. Its just works set to you by God.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Grace

For a long time I've believed that Grace would be defined as "The empowering PRESENCE of GOD which empowers us to do HIS will.

As in "By 'the empowering PRESENCE of God were you saved..."

Mercy is a part of that because by being sinners we did not deserve GOD'S Grace. Ephesians 2:8

 

[faithfulservant]

I am going to give you some head-knowledge in what I'm about to say. None of it has any power, so please wait until the last part of what I have to say, for that is the key to this walk.

We have freedom to stumble as we walk with the Lord. He totally understands what we're going through, and doesn't expect us to walk perfectly.

I mean, our walk is like a free lunch (if I may speak figuratively). It's hard to mess it up in this respect:

As long as you've got anything in you that seeks Him, you're going to be fine. You have to have faith that He is washing away your sins as you confess them daily. He is faithful. Don't fear.

That being said, there are many warnings about falling away from "grace" for people who let this spiritual battle rattle their faith that the Lord will always forgive them. It's plain: Confess your sins, and He will be faithful to forgive you. It's that simple.

However, that being said, we should not knowingly wallow in sinful activities the Spirit of God is convicting us about. His Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts for a reason: He wants to draw us more and more out of this darkness and into His wonderful Light. How do we learn about what is sin? Stay in His word. It washes us clean as we study it. It's like a mirror we should not stray from and forget immediately what we should look like.

God is longsuffering and merciful. Christians who continue to wallow in sin (sins that lead to dying) and ignore the Lord's leading away from wantonness risk walking away from the Lord. Addiction sins are a good example of this. I've met Christians who have gotten bound by addictions of one sort or another. Their entire spiritual life is gone, they don't care. They don't seek after the Lord, they don't pray, they don't bother to call out to Him for deliverance. This is deadly, but the word warns about this:

2 Peter 2:20
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

The wonderful thing we need to lay hold of us that He will deliver you from whatever sin He is convicting you of. That's the point. That's the Holy Spirit trying to draw you out of the darkness and into His light further and further. When temptations to that sin come, cry out to Him to deliver you. He is faithful.

AND I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!!! GET IN HIS SPIRIT!!! How? Praying privately, ministering to the LORD every day. Get in His word every day. Serve people in His name as much as possible! It's that simple. Then, He will do the rest and you won't want to do any of the sinful stuff. It will be powerless over you.

 

[faithfulservant]

Is it "works" to surrender your life? That's a personal choice, not a work.
Is it "works" to spend time daily in prayer, in His word, and serving others in His name? Those are "works" based upon faith. This pleases Him immensely. When we do these things in faith, He empowers us to be useful for Him. Then, He "works" through us to transform us and use our vessel to serve people, to encourage, to edify, and to draw people to His salvation.

 

[jari]

Is it "works" to surrender your life? That's a personal choice, not a work.

It's a work. Work means something you must do. If you surrender your life it means you'll start doing. So yeah that's definetely works considering how salvation is not meant to be based on works.

Is it "works" to spend time daily in prayer, in His word, and serving others in His name? Those are "works" based upon faith.

Yeah its works. Only thing that isnt works is when you can just sit and do nothing.

God bless you.

(responding later to other posts you all...)

 

[faithfulservant]

It's a work. Work means something you must do. If you surrender your life it means you'll start doing. So yeah that's definetely works considering how salvation is not meant to be based on works.



Yeah its works. Only thing that isnt works is when you can just sit and do nothing.

God bless you.

(responding later to other posts you all...)

You characterize surrendering to God as a bad thing!?

 

[faithfulservant]

Only thing that isnt works is when you can just sit and do nothing.

And you think that's what God wants you to do? Faith without works is a dead faith. God calls us to do things in His name.

James 2:14-18
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

When you spend time in prayer, it's because you have faith God is listening. When you spend time in His word, it's because you have faith it's the truth. When you spend time serving others in the name of Jesus, it's because you have faith He can work through you.

My friend, God has a plan for you. If you "just sit and do nothing" you are going against His will for you. He didn't call anyone to "just sit and do nothing." He called us to die to ourselves, to pick up our cross, and to proclaim the gospel to the world. That isn't clear to you? That doesn't mean anything to you?

If you surrender your life, be obedient, learn His ways through prayer and study of His word, you can be used to serve others in His name and spread His gospel so others can be welcomed into His Kingdom. That, my friend, is glorious!

If you chose to do nothing, that's your choice. But it isn't what God wants.

Consider the parable of the talents. It is a story of someone who knew God was real, but chose to do nothing with that understanding:

Matthew 25:14-30
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[c] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[d] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[e] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I want you to notice something. For one thing, the "worthless servant" didn't understand the merciful, loving nature of God because he never bothered to earnestly learn His ways.

Secondly, the "worthless servant" chose to hide what he did know of God. He didn't spread what the Lord gave him to others. Because of that, what he had was taken from him and given to someone else.

We most certainly cannot "just sit and do nothing." That's another gospel, and not the truth.

 

[jari]

And you think that's what God wants you to do? Faith without works is a dead faith. God calls us to do things in His name.

then it will contradict eph 2:8-9 .

there must be resolution.

We most certainly cannot "just sit and do nothing." That's another gospel, and not the truth.

Gospel means good news. and Gospel means Jesus died and rose again for our sins. If you belive this you will be saved.

anything add to that is false gospel in my opinion.

 

[faithfulservant]

There are no contradictions in God's word. Man likes to twist things up to make himself comfortable, though.

There are no "works" involved in repentance. He does all the work, we just submit to His ability to transform us. We have freewill. If we chose to wallow in sin, we have chosen our flesh over His Spirit. That's spiritually dangerous.

I challenge you to go through the entire New Testament from the Gospels to Revelation and mark down every warning against falling away and sinning. The warnings, which are plentiful, are there for a reason.

What you're doing is quite immature. You're saying, "I only want to hear the comfortable things. I will pick out what sounds good to me and that will be my gospel."

We need to take the "whole counsel" of God into account. That means passages that don't seem to reconcile on first reading must be considered prayerfully, and with great seriousness.

God wants us to push deeper into His Spirit to learn of Him. That's part of this relationship.

By your account, Jari, all someone needs to do is just say one day, "I believe Jesus died for my sins." Then that person would simply continue on though life and nothing would change about who they are or how they worship God.

That's the devil's gospel because Jesus clearly states that if a branch (one of His followers) doesn't bear fruit (fruits in keeping with repentance and fruits of the Holy Spirit) they will be cut off. Branches that don't bear fruit are only good for on thing: Burning in a fire.

John 15:1-11
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

ABIDE

Do you see what Jesus said there? What I described earlier, about praying daily, getting into His word daily, you called works. That's not "works," it's "abiding" in Christ.

Now you may say, "Oh, I don't want to spend that time every day." Sure, of course, no one does. We're all lost sheep. But, if we seek Him out and ask Him to give us a fire in our hearts for spending time with Him, He will do it!

This is all His "work" in us, not our "works." We just need to get our head straight with His truth, and stop watering down what the Gospel says because people have itching ears.

This is where His power will manifest in a person's ministry. The more we abide in Him, the more He will supernaturally manifest in our lives.

If we spend our lives pursuing something other than Jesus, we're not worshiping God. You're either going to worship God or your going to worship the world. You can't do both, Jari. Choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[faithfulservant]

We are called to "train ourselves" for godliness. Is that works, Jari? Did God lie when He breathed out this passage?

1 Timothy 4:7
7 Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly.

Of course, all this training is is understanding we need Him more and more and we seek His face more and more through prayer and study of His word and submitting to Him to be changed and to serve others through us.

That, my friend, is not works because He's doing the work in and through us. We're just getting our mind straight with the truth: We need Him!

 

[faithfulservant]

Here's my last word in this thread:

Here's what Father God expects us to do: Need Him!

If you don't feel you "need" Him, you are not in a relationship with Him. Think about that. We've all had relationships. We've all needed people before. If you have a relationship with God, then you will feel your need for Him.

If you don't feel you need Him, how can you say you're a Christian? It's all about loving God, and submitting for Him to love others through us.That is not works, that's love.

If anyone out there is reading this and feeling that perhaps they've not tasted a true relationship with the LORD, just start seeking His face in prayer. Ask Him to put a fire in your heart to yearn for Him. He will do it! Get in His word so you understand His ways better. If His Holy Spirit convicts you of a sin in you, cry out for Jesus to deliver you. He will do it! He is faithful!

THESE THINGS ARE NOT WORKS, THEY ARE LIFE EVERLASTING!!!

 

[faithfulservant]

Jari, I just read your testimony. It's beautiful. I pray the LORD will bless you richly.

You found God outside of the church system, it seems. I did, too. You have to be careful about what some churches teach. In this age, which is the age of "falling away," described by Paul, many churches have compromised the word of God to fill the seats and keep the money rolling in. Not all, but many have.

Part of the falling away is the movement away from preaching about repentance and sin. Repentance isn't just something that happens once in a believer's life. Look at the letters to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation. Jesus called His people to repentance, because they were not keeping focused on God's ways.

You and I have similar testimonies, actually. I found God in the quiet recesses of my bedroom one day. I do attend church, and we all need to spend time fellowshiping, otherwise how can the Body take care of itself? But, we do need to be careful to hold fast to Jesus' truth, even if it means we reject man's version of the truth.

Jesus said, "I'm the Way, the Truth, and the Life" for a reason.

He's the "Way" because we follow Him and trust only in Him, Father God, and the Holy Spirit. He is the "Truth" so we know if anything contradicts what His word says we can be confident rejecting it. And He is the "Life" because if we follow Him and only hold tight to His truth, we will have Live everlasting.

 

[jari]

Hi BGA
I try to answer your posts here.

I want you to notice something. For one thing, the "worthless servant" didn't understand the merciful, loving nature of God because he never bothered to earnestly learn His ways.

Or learned to know Him, or come to know Him as in born again person would have come to know the Lord.
That servant called the Lord evil man, which He of course is not.

There are no contradictions in God's word. Man likes to twist things up to make himself comfortable, though.

You just established one by introducing james 2 as something saved person should be doing in your opinion. Because Bible says salvation is not of works.

I challenge you to go through the entire New Testament from the Gospels to Revelation and mark down every warning against falling away and sinning. The warnings, which are plentiful, are there for a reason.

I have.

What you're doing is quite immature. You're saying, "I only want to hear the comfortable things. I will pick out what sounds good to me and that will be my gospel."

I never said this. I havent actually said anything at all except trying to figure this out.

We are called to "train ourselves" for godliness. Is that works, Jari? Did God lie when He breathed out this passage?

1 Timothy 4:7
7 Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly.

The question is what motivation there should be for obeing this word? "do this and you shall live"? as in law. Or was there different motivation for this?

And He is the "Life" because if we follow Him and only hold tight to His truth, we will have Live everlasting.

This is pure work and earn your salvation.

My friend, God has a plan for you. If you "just sit and do nothing" you are going against His will for you. He didn't call anyone to "just sit and do nothing." He called us to die to ourselves, to pick up our cross, and to proclaim the gospel to the world. That isn't clear to you? That doesn't mean anything to you?

I'm of different opinion here that not many may share. But Jesus said : Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The decision to follow is ours still. We cant earn something God gives of His grace.

Jari, I just read your testimony. It's beautiful. I pray the LORD will bless you richly.

Thanks.

God bless you

 

[faithfulservant]

Hi BGA
I try to answer your posts here.



Or learned to know Him, or come to know Him as in born again person would have come to know the Lord.
That servant called the Lord evil man, which He of course is not.




You just established one by introducing james 2 as something saved person should be doing in your opinion. Because Bible says salvation is not of works.




I have.



I never said this. I havent actually said anything at all except trying to figure this out.



The question is what motivation there should be for obeing this word? "do this and you shall live"? as in law. Or was there different motivation for this?



This is pure work and earn your salvation.



I'm of different opinion here that not many may share. But Jesus said : Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The decision to follow is ours still. We cant earn something God gives of His grace.




Thanks.

God bless you

Jari, in your testimony in your user profile, you say you came to repentance. Doesn't that go against what you're trying to preach here? In fact, would having to say, "I accept Jesus" be "works" according to your thinking?

So, anything anyone does, according to you, is "works." That means all the people who have "just sat there and do nothing" are saved. Meanwhile, those who seek the Lord, pray, study His word, are legalists and not under grace.

Can you see how your thinking is in error? My friend, law and grace are two very important ideas. I am warning not to teach on this, as you will be held to a higher standard by God.

If you have questions, go ahead and ask. Once you start reproving what people say, however, know that you are trying to teach. It's serious business to teach the word of God. It's not to be taken lightly.

God wants our hearts. In fact, God tests hearts. Does that mean God wants you to work for your salvation? No, it means God wants people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

If your gospel says the believer doesn't need to worship the LORD, you are pushing "another" gospel.

 

[faithfulservant]

I'm of different opinion here that not many may share. But Jesus said : Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And some of His disciples turned away after hearing some of His teachings, are you suggesting they were still saved?

John 6:52-68
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

 

[jari]

Hi BGA

Jari, in your testimony in your user profile, you say you came to repentance. Doesn't that go against what you're trying to preach here? In fact, would having to say, "I accept Jesus" be "works" according to your thinking?

Of course not. To want is not work. That's all God needs from us, faith. - if you ask me

So, anything anyone does, according to you, is "works." That means all the people who have "just sat there and do nothing" are saved. Meanwhile, those who seek the Lord, pray, study His word, are legalists and not under grace.

People have different motives. Some really think heaven is earnable. Some dont. And some say they dont earn it yet instead on doing and working in danger of losing salvation.

I believe God forgives us "legalism" .

But it's against love to have legalism....

Can you see how your thinking is in error? My friend, law and grace are two very important ideas. I am warning not to teach on this, as you will be held to a higher standard by God.

Your telling me God will punish me? Huh so ur only one right and I should just be quiet? I have posted sincere questions in these forums and telling how I see this. That's all.
Im not a teacher but if someone would come and tell how man needs to beat him self up in order to enter heaven would you lay a red carpet for him? :wink:
sometimes i feel picture of harsh God is welcome more. Because people fear theres that right way that isnt easy so it makes them feel good about them self when their christian road is not easy..

If you have questions, go ahead and ask. Once you start reproving what people say, however, know that you are trying to teach. It's serious business to teach the word of God. It's not to be taken lightly.

Its serious business to me to. And I've just told you the way I see it.

God wants our hearts. In fact, God tests hearts. Does that mean God wants you to work for your salvation? No, it means God wants people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Sure.

If your gospel says the believer doesn't need to worship the LORD, you are pushing "another" gospel.

Bible doesnt say you must worship. Or can you show verse where it says this?

Sounds like we would grow to salvation. But salvation really is instant from what I understood. rom 10:9

I think you may feel personally this that worship is important which it is. But people come to Lord in very different ways and have different levels of faith.... Some filled with Holy spirit , jumping in joy. some say a prayer..

Indeed worship is important but nothing can replace faith. Worship can very much help with that though and thus make us grow to spiritual christians.


God bless you

 

[jari]

And some of His disciples turned away after hearing some of His teachings, are you suggesting they were still saved?

John 6:52-68
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,

they werent saved to begin with. Perhaps they believed after Jesus was resurrected.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

It does appear that being made alive was initiated by God and not by us.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We were raised up in Christ and given life while we were dead in sins.
I don't even remember being raised and seated.
I really don't see any requirements on my part.
It seems more like a role that is available to fulfill.
Works will certainly affect our fulfilling that which God initiated.