• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:11)

Do you know what the Bible says about if people go to hell?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 92.9%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I think so but I am not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't think it matters

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I haven't really looked to see what it actually says

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • That is what everyone says, so it must be true

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • I think so but I am interested in finding out for sure

    Votes: 1 7.1%

  • Total voters
    14
Loyal
Act 55-59

55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ....... we know Jesus is heaven it says so right here

56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ............................ Jesus in heaven says so right here

57 At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him.

58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed,
“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”............ Looky here Stephen is about dye, and his spirit is going to heaven with Jesus

60 Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.......I think this is a great example that shows falling asleep in the bible is reference to death of the body

you may not agree and thats cool with me, hope it is with you :)
 
Member
Act 55-59

55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ....... we know Jesus is heaven it says so right here

56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ............................ Jesus in heaven says so right here

57 At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him.

58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed,
“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”............ Looky here Stephen is about dye, and his spirit is going to heaven with Jesus

60 Falling on his knees, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.......I think this is a great example that shows falling asleep in the bible is reference to death of the body

you may not agree and thats cool with me, hope it is with you :)
Stephen said receive my breath. We know from Ecc. 12 that the breath or spirit of life returns to God when man dies. So when Stephen's breath returned to God he fell asleep, he died.
 
Member
There's a teaching that man somehow can live apart from the body and that this part lives on after the man dies. What evidence is there for this claim? Is there any physical evidence? Can we go to a cemetery and and strike up a conversation with the dead? No, we can't do that. Can we see these people who are supposedly alive? No, we can't see them. Do we have any way to interact with these people who are supposedly alive in a physical way? No we don't. So, we have no real world evidence that people who die are somehow alive. So, what evidence is there? Some claim that there is evidence in the Scriptures. OK. When we look at the Scriptures is there anything that states that dead people aren't really dead, but alive. No, there isn't. So where does this supposed evidence come from. It seems that it comes from a few passages of Scripture where this idea is "Inferred". Is an inference a fact or an assumption?

A fact is: something that actually exists; reality; truth: Dictionary.com

An assumption: something taken for granted; a supposition: Dictionary.com

A fact is something that can be proven true. An assumption is a supposition or something that is "supposed" to be true. It may or may not be.

Can assumptions be wrong?

According to research conducted by Harvard, 70% of all our assumptions are wrong. Case Western University’s recent research tells us that up to 90% of the assumptions we make about other people are wrong in some way.


With the percentage of assumptions being wrong this high, it would seem that basing doctrine on assumptions, "inferences", is not a very good idea. It is a much better idea to base doctrine on statements that are clearly stated in the Scriptures. With this we can consider if man can live on after death. Gen 2.7 States plainly that God created man from the dust of the earth. It states plainly that God breathed His breath or spirit of life into man. It states plainly that the man then became a living soul. So, in this passage we have the body, the spirit, and the soul. So what happens to these when a man dies. Ecc 12 says that the breath or spirit returns to God. So we see that the breath or spirit of life that God gave to the man returns to God. That accounts for the breath or spirit. Ecc 12 also says that the body or the man, returns to the dust. That accounts for the body. These are clear statements in Scripture. That leaves us to question what happened to the soul. Logic dictates that since it's two components have separated it no longer exists. In the same way if one has water and removes the oxygen molecule the water no longer exists. So we see from Scripture that there is nothing left of the man when he dies. There is nothing left to live on or to go anywhere. He has ceased to exist.
 
Loyal
Paradise translated is garden or park, as the Garden of Eden. We would expect trees in both of these, as is confirmed in Genesis and in Revelation.



I have to agree with @Butch5 here sister, OT understanding refers back to Abraham in which the Jewish faith and Israel was built.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV)
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Greek Strong's Number: 3857
Greek Word: παράδεισος
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Pronunciation:par-ad'-i-sos
Root: of Oriental origin cf , <H6508>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 5:765,777
Vine's Words: Paradise
English Words used in KJV:
paradise 3
[Total Count: 3]
of Oriental origin [compare <H6508> (pardec)]; a park, i.e. (special) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”) :- paradise.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.


Hebrew Strong's Number: 6508
Hebrew Word: ‏פַּרְדֵּס‎
Transliteration: pardēs
Phonetic Pronunciation:par-dace'
Root: of foreign origin, Greek <G3857>
Vine's Words: None
English Words used in KJV:
orchard 2
forest 1
[Total Count: 3]
of foreign origin; a park :- forest, orchard.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The Greek word Jesus used translates as garden or park

The Hebrew word used translates as a park (large garden) with trees.

It is interesting here, I think, how little the word Paradise is used in both the OT and the NT, but the meaning is the same.

The question I feel this leaves us is, where is Paradise? It is in the 'Current' Heaven, with the Tree of Life, none of which we will see until we are with our Lord.

No translation bias.

No words that can conflict with the brethren, we post in love, we post in peace, we let The Word speak.

The Truth is in The Word, Strong's and Vines gives us the clarity to specific words from Greek and Hebrew, they are there to aid our understanding not to be ignored as they reveal the intended meaning in the spoken language.

To God be the Glory, Jesus is Lord.

Peace and Blessings
 
Active
When you die and enter eternity you'll find out -- we Can learn from the Luke account of the rich man and Lazarus -- Luke 16 -- both of these men die and enter eternity -- one to Hades and the other across to Abraham's bosom

vs 22 - 25.
 
Loyal
I say no words that can conflict with the brethren, we post in love, we post in peace, but we must let The Word speak.

Trusting in the Lord and leaning not on our own understanding.
 
Member
There is a teaching that the dead are actually alive. However, to hold this position requires one to hold inconsistencies. For instance, on the cross Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise. The Greek Word Paradisos means a garden. However, according to this teaching paradise is a place in Hades. However, Hades is actually the grave. Apparently there is a place of torment and a place of rest called Abraham's bosom. So apparently this place called paradise is somewhere under the earth. If one holds this position it presents a problem as Paul said he knew a man who was caught up to the third Heaven, caught up to paradise. So it would seem that to Paul paradise is in the third Heaven, not a place below the earth. In addition there is the paradise in the Kingdom of God. Since Paul said this one was caught up to the third Heaven it seems reasonable that this paradise is the same one that is in the Kingdom. This presents a problem for the idea that paradise is a place in Hades. It would seem that Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be somewhere below the ground but rather, He was answering the thief's request that Jesus remember him when He came into His Kingdom. Jesus' reply tells the thief that he will be with Jesus in paradise, the Kingdom. The thief wanted to enter the Kingdom and Jesus told him he will.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

There is a teaching that the dead are actually alive. However, to hold this position requires one to hold inconsistencies. For instance, on the cross Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise. The Greek Word Paradisos means a garden. However, according to this teaching paradise is a place in Hades. However, Hades is actually the grave. Apparently there is a place of torment and a place of rest called Abraham's bosom. So apparently this place called paradise is somewhere under the earth. If one holds this position it presents a problem as Paul said he knew a man who was caught up to the third Heaven, caught up to paradise. So it would seem that to Paul paradise is in the third Heaven, not a place below the earth. In addition there is the paradise in the Kingdom of God. Since Paul said this one was caught up to the third Heaven it seems reasonable that this paradise is the same one that is in the Kingdom. This presents a problem for the idea that paradise is a place in Hades. It would seem that Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be somewhere below the ground but rather, He was answering the thief's request that Jesus remember him when He came into His Kingdom. Jesus' reply tells the thief that he will be with Jesus in paradise, the Kingdom. The thief wanted to enter the Kingdom and Jesus told him he will.

I am reminded of the New Heaven and the New Earth
Perhaps put this into the equation and see what comes of it?

But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
2Peter 3:13

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [PRAISE THE LORD]
Revelation 21:1-4


Bless you ....><>


video set to play at 'The Tree of Life'
 
Active
He said, if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am you may be also.

If He comes back so that they can be with Him, where will He back? He comes back. He didnt say they would go to Him. He said He would come back to them.
You are not grasping the ''take you / receive you unto myself. You are also not grasping the ''where I am..........you may be also''.

You interpret these two phrases as ''receive myself unto you'' and ''where you are......I will be also''.

100% wrong interpretation by you.

God of the universe (which Jesus is), does not have ''one'' place they are going to reside at. If you think that, I cannot think of an example appropriately relative to the naivety.

The fact being made is that WHERE GOD is, we will be also. Meditate on that. We know the new Jerusalem will be the spot for the millennium. Thereafter? Before it?

Your belief is that we are dead until the new Jerusalem. That is why you read that verse upside down and back to front.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Will people go to hell? What does the Bible say?


The purpose of this thread is to look at what the Scripture says regarding this topic.


I am reminding myself as well


Bless you all ....><>

JESUS IS LORD
 
Loyal
Greetings brother

Thank you for the reminder, but as you know more than most, every coin has two sides, it is hard to discuss one without discussing the other.

Will people go to Hell - Which people go to Hell, which don't?

Will people go to Hell - Can we discuss Hades without discussing Sheol?

Will people go to Hell - Can we discuss NT without discussing the OT?

Will people go to Hell - Can we discuss scripture without considering Greek and Hebrew?

All are in scripture, all are related, the wind blows where it will...

Would it be better to have another thread? What is Hades, Shoel? What is Hell?

Trouble is regardless of Title, discussions will overlap, as they are all inter related.

Sorry, just thinking aloud my friend.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Bless you Brother
--------------------------
As kindly pointed out early in the thread, there are three words that are sometimes translated as 'hell'.

I was wondering if we could have a quick look at those words and when they were used [as in the passage and context] and from there we might see things we have not yet seen? Might not, too!

We might also see better the answer to the question of, Do or will people go to Hell? If we perhaps eliminate any that are not referring to people being sent there or ending up there, we will be better placed to see if people do or not. according to Scripture.

Also, what reference is there to Hell in the Scripture of the Old Testament? Usually we benefit if we can see the Old in the New


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
Bless you too brother
___________________

I will have a look later, I will need to step back through the pages to find your post. I must admit I dropped out of the conversation a couple of times as replies were starting to get... shall I say... a little less in His Love.

It is easy for it to happen, it is also easy to mis-read the intended intentions of a reply when not face to face with the other person, as we know only to well.

In His Love
 
Member
You are not grasping the ''take you / receive you unto myself. You are also not grasping the ''where I am..........you may be also''.

You interpret these two phrases as ''receive myself unto you'' and ''where you are......I will be also''.

100% wrong interpretation by you.

God of the universe (which Jesus is), does not have ''one'' place they are going to reside at. If you think that, I cannot think of an example appropriately relative to the naivety.

The fact being made is that WHERE GOD is, we will be also. Meditate on that. We know the new Jerusalem will be the spot for the millennium. Thereafter? Before it?

Your belief is that we are dead until the new Jerusalem. That is why you read that verse upside down and back to front.
The verse is crystal clear. If He goes to prepare a place He will come again. He's speaking to the disciples where they are . He says if I go away I will come again. Why will He come back again? So that where He is they can be also. They cannot be where He is when He goes away. He told them that where He was going they could not go.

The passage doesn't say He's going away then coming back to receive them and then taking them back. They can't go where He was going. It's stated plainly.

This whole idea that the dead go to Heaven is based on the premise that the dead are alive after they die. However, I've shown in this thread that that is not possible. We've seen that every component of man is accounted for at death. There is nothing left to live on. Given that there is nothing left to live on we must conclude this and the other passages being used to support the idea that the dead are alive are being misunderstood. Likewise, the passages that are used to say the dead suffer eternally in hell are being misunderstood. The only hope of life after death in the Bible is the Resurrection.
 
Active
He told them that where He was going they could not go.
I assume you are referring to John 8:21?

This is Jesus speaking to pharisees. People who die in their sins. In John 8:24 Jesus makes it crystal clear that those who die in their sins are those who do not believe in Him.

This is NOT the case for the audience in John 14. You are cherry picking and manipulating scripture.

The verse is crystal clear. If He goes to prepare a place He will come again. He's speaking to the disciples where they are . He says if I go away I will come again. Why will He come back again? So that where He is they can be also. They cannot be where He is when He goes away.
Jesus goes AWAY to prepare a place WHERE HE IS, so that when He comes back to FETCH them, they can be where HE IS John 14:13.

You are utterly missing the FACT that Jesus and us will be together. Where Jesus is, is heaven.

I assume you are also one who believes we will never leave the earth?
 
Member
There are three places mentioned in Scripture where people go, Hades, Gehenna, and the Lake of Fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, John, in his vision of the future saw the wicked being cast into the Lake of Fire. If we accept that the Scriptures are without error we must conclude that these two places are one and the same. This leaves two places, Gehenna and Hades. The problem is that both of these places are translated hell. Why? If they are two different places why are they both called hell? Is hell in two different locations? Imagine if you were reading a history book about World War ll and America and Germany both had the same name. It would be kind of confusing wouldn't it? It would be kind of hard to figure out who did what, would it not? How much more if we have two different locations for the dead that are translated the same? These two places are quite different. One is the grave and the other is referred to as a lake of fire. By translating these two words as hell the English reader cannot make a distinction between them, thus causing the reader confusion.

Hades literally means, not seen, and is often translated the grave. Gehenna is a location outside of Israel. In the Old Testament it is referred to as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. Jesus said that this place is where the Gehenna fire would be. We see from Jesus' quote of Isaiah 66 that it is dead bodies that are burning here. We also see in Jeremiah's prophecy that this location will one day be made holy to the Lord. So, this Gehenna fire will not burn forever.
 
Last edited:
Member
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say unto you. (Jn. 13:1 ASV)
I assume you are referring to John 8:21?

This is Jesus speaking to pharisees. People who die in their sins. In John 8:24 Jesus makes it crystal clear that those who die in their sins are those who do not believe in Him.

This is NOT the case for the audience in John 14. You are cherry picking and manipulating scripture.



Jesus goes AWAY to prepare a place WHERE HE IS, so that when He comes back to FETCH them, they can be where HE IS John 14:13.

You are utterly missing the FACT that Jesus and us will be together. Where Jesus is, is heaven.

I assume you are also one who believes we will never leave the earth?
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Where He was going they could not go.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn. 14:1-3 KJV)

In the context that they could not go where He was going. He said, " I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Since they couldn't go to Him He said He would come again so that they could be with Him.
 
Member
Bless you Brother
--------------------------
As kindly pointed out early in the thread, there are three words that are sometimes translated as 'hell'.

I was wondering if we could have a quick look at those words and when they were used [as in the passage and context] and from there we might see things we have not yet seen? Might not, too!

We might also see better the answer to the question of, Do or will people go to Hell? If we perhaps eliminate any that are not referring to people being sent there or ending up there, we will be better placed to see if people do or not. according to Scripture.

Also, what reference is there to Hell in the Scripture of the Old Testament? Usually we benefit if we can see the Old in the New


Bless you ....><>
Hi Br. Bear,

These two passages show a problem with defining them all as hell.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1 (Mk. 9:43 KJV)

Here we see indicated by Jesus that the sinner would be cast into hell, into fire.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:25-27 KJV)

Here Peter quotes David's words concerning Jesus. This passage says that God would not leave Jesus' soul in hell. The words not leave indicate that Jesus' soul was in hell. From this passage there are those who argue that Jesus' was literally in the flames of hell. I think most Christians believe this but there are a few. For those who don't believe it, this passage presents problems. How could Jesus be in hell when that's where the wicked go? This confuses people. As I pointed out, it confuses people to the point that some believe Jesus literally went to where the wicked suffer.

The problem is easily cleared up when we see that when Jesus indicated the sinner would go into hell fire, He was speaking of Gehenna. On the other hand when Peter is quoting David's words concerning Jesus he is using the word Hades. So we see that they are two different places.

On a side note:
In the Old Testament the writers often used what is known as Hebrew Parallelisms. This is when the writer says something and then restates it using different words. That's what we see here in David's words. In verse 26 David says, "moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope". He restates this in verse 27 with the words, "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

His flesh can rest in hope because his soul is not left in Hades and will not see corruption. It's the body that sees corruption in the grave or Hades.
 
Active
Hadees is the Greek word // Sheol is the Hebrew word // where the non-believer does immediately upon their death. And That is the location talked about in Luke 16 as to where the rich man ended up / Hades where he was experiencing torment as is described in that passage.

The Lake of fire and brimstone is the Final destination for all non-believers for All of eternity.
 
Loyal
Bless you Brother
--------------------------
As kindly pointed out early in the thread, there are three words that are sometimes translated as 'hell'.

I was wondering if we could have a quick look at those words and when they were used [as in the passage and context] and from there we might see things we have not yet seen? Might not, too!

We might also see better the answer to the question of, Do or will people go to Hell? If we perhaps eliminate any that are not referring to people being sent there or ending up there, we will be better placed to see if people do or not. according to Scripture.

Also, what reference is there to Hell in the Scripture of the Old Testament? Usually we benefit if we can see the Old in the New

Bless you ....><>

Greetings

Just for the record in a search we have the following to refer to regarding these three words, Hades, Lake of Fire and Gehenna (Hell)

I have referred to KJV & NIV for the first two words and KJV for Gehenna - Hell in the OT.

Hades - NT - NIV

- Matthew 11:23
- Matthew 16:18
- Luke 10:15
- Luke 16:23
- Rev 1:18
- Rev 6:8
- Rev 20:13
- Rev 20:14

* Although these are not in the KJV, they are in the NKJV

Lake of Fire - NT - KJV
- Rev 19:20
- Rev 20:10
- Rev 20:14
- Rev 20:15

Lake of Fire - NT - NIV
- Rev 20:14
- Rev 20:15

Gehenna - meaning Hell
Defined as - A place or state of torment or suffering where lost/condemned souls go.

2 Kings 23:8-10 (KJV)
8 And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
9 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

KJV - There are 31 references to Hell in the OT and 23 in the NT

Every word 'Hell' used in the OT has the same Strong's number and meaning

Hebrew Strong's Number: 7585
Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאוֹל‎
Transliteration: sheʾôl
Phonetic Pronunciation:sheh-ole'
Hebrew Word: ‏שְׁאֹל‎
Transliteration: sheʾôl
Phonetic Pronunciation: sheh-ole'
Root: from <H7592>

Vine's Words: Ask (To), Sheol

English Words used in KJV:
grave 31
hell 31
pit 3

[Total Count: 65]

or she'ol, sheh-ole'; from <H7592> (sha'al); hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates :- grave, hell, pit.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

KJV for Gehenna - Hell in the NT.

Hell is used 23 times in the NT - but uses 3 Greek words


Greek Strong's Number: 86 is used 9 times

Greek Strong's Number: 1067 is used 13 times

Greek Strong's Number: 5020 is used 1 time - 2 Peter 2:4 - Peter goes further and deeper!

The correct meaning of these translated words are as follows...

Greek Strong's Number: 86
Greek Word:
ᾅδης
Transliteration: hadēs
Phonetic Pronunciation:hah'-dace
Root: from <G1> (as negative particle) and <G1492>

Vine's Words: Hades

English Words used in KJV:
hell 10
grave 1

[Total Count: 11]

from <G1> (a) (as a negative particle) and <G1492> (eido); properly unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls :- grave, hell.


Greek Strong's Number: 1067
Greek Word:
γέεννα
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Pronunciation:gheh'-en-nah
Root: of Hebrew origin , <H1516> and <H2011>

Vine's Words: Hell

English Words used in KJV:
hell 9
hell fire
+ <G3588> + <G4442> 3
[Total Count: 12]

of Hebrew origin [<H1516> (gay') and <H2011> (Hinnom)]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figurative) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment :- hell.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

I hilighted gay because it stood out as I added these translations!


Greek Strong's Number: 5020 (Just the one reference)
Greek Word:
ταρταρόω
Transliteration: tartaroō
Phonetic Pronunciation:tar-tar-o'-o
Root: from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)

Vine's Words: None

English Words used in KJV:
cast down to hell 1
[Total Count: 1]

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment :- cast down to hell.

Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
 

Similar threads


Top