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Why do some of us avoid tough issues?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by moznpeg, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. moznpeg

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    I posted a question to see what some of our brothers and sisters think concerning sex offenders who are registered and who are saved. My question was "can sex offenders be saved?" Now, I know they can and most of us know that as well. I have personally met some folks who say, (I've seen them saying it and my ears are still in great working condition), that they will have a place in hell or that God hates them and won't allow them into heaven. That's not what my Savior tells me. When I hear someone talk like that, it breaks my heart to think that some of us are hurting so bad that we won't allow Jesus, our Savior to take all that kind of thinking out of us. Even in a church that I was attending, the Pastor would not even let the other three pastors, (Associate, Administrative and Youth) nor any of the elders know about an individual who had been attending there for two years and just two weeks into going to this church for worship with fellow believers, the sex offender told him his current condition. It was only when one of the preschool teachers found out that a sex offender was attending their church, was there a great big to do about it even though the sex offender was doing absolutely nothing wrong. The other pastors and elders decided to really clamp down on this person so bad that he decided to go to another church. The pastors and elders said that they didn't trust him to be there but it was eventually found that the churches insurance didn't want that kind of liability and the pastors caved under the pressure. Today in this time and age, sex offenders are considered the modern day leper and with all the hype about sex crimes in the media, it's no wonder that society, including the body of Christ is caught up in this. This man who is deemed a sex offender did not violate any person nor did he do anything violent. His crime was what is called, non-violent-non-victim but he is still looked upon as a monster.I have all the facts and numbers concerning sex offenders according to the Dept. of Justice statistics and they are way way lower than other repeat offenses but the media won't let you know that and we as people, (humans) are twice as likely to enjoy hearing bad news than good...awful isn't it? When the body of Christ has folks who hold anger and hate for a certain class of their own brothers and sisters who have already been forgiven their sins by the same blood that have forgave you and me, there certainly is something wrong about it, don't you think?ThanksMozP.S. 95% of all new sex crimes are committed by a person not on any sex registry.Praise the God of Israel!
     
  2. Strypes

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    #2 Strypes, Dec 29, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
    Jesus loves us all and made the way for us to have fellowship with Him. He is faithful and just and will forgive all we have done. All means all. Not some of what we have done or just the non grotesque things we have done, but ALL.

    But sometimes the consequences of our actions in this life will still follow us. For example, the murderer can be forgiven by God for taking a life but society will still demand justice and the murderer will remain imprisoned. (reminds me of a song..)

    [video]http://www.talkjesus.com/media/m168-steven-curtis-chapman-free[/video]

    Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.



    That being said, the issues (consequences) for someone who has been convicted of sexual crimes remain. God wishes to be worshiped in spirit and truth. A convicted sexual offender is loved by God as much as anyone else. He can worship God without imposing on others. It is prudent for Church staff to protect their congregation (especially the children) from potential harm. He may never do what he was convicted for again (go and sin no more) but it would be best to avoid all appearance of evil and he should steer clear of all situations that could compromise the safety of others.

    We are to love God above all and love each other. The preschool teacher is showing love for her students by seeking to protect them from potential harm. The convicted sexual offender could show love for others by not putting them in the position to have to deal with his past crimes.

    Consequences can be harsh but God will help the individual to endure them. It may be that the pastor could assign an elder or deacon to accompany him while he is in the building. It may be an embarrassment to the man (another consequence) but the safety of others should be of paramount importance.
     
  3. Brad Huber

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    Its well possible that the pastor himself may be more liable to be a sexual predator than the convicted man. I know a man convicted of sexual crimes, and the girl (she was 15, he was 28) admitted later on to the police that she had lied out of anger at the man for NOT giving in to desire with her (like Joseph in Egypt), but it made NO difference, they didnt believe her afterword, thinking she was lying to protect him, even though she was believed earlier in court. God knows the heart, but we live in a flawed world, with judges that judge based on earthly knowledge, not heavenly knowledge. But we are to respect and honor our system of justice knowing that it will be wrong sometimes, and we are flawed humans also without divine knowledge of the true intentions of the hearts of mankind. He should not have been booted out of the church, but at the same time, he should not be trusted alone with any children whose parents didnt trust him, but wisdom rarely prevails when children are involved. Its a fallen world, do you expect true justice from all in a fallen twisted world?
     
  4. amadeus2

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    And what was our brother, Paul, who is credited with penning the words of much of the New Testament? Was he not a murderer or at the least a supporter of murderers? After his experience on the road to Damascus and with brother Ananias, Paul was ostracised by most of the brothers in Jerusalem... because of his history, which not a good one.

    To be condemned or set apart by those who are to be our brothers after we have repented and been forgiven by God is a terrible thing. God is able to move on and forget the adulteries committed against Him, which must be far worse than the worst of evils commited against any person, and if we are to be like we must also be able to come to such a place. Is this more than we are able to bear because of our fears and/or the love for the children?

    If it were me who had suffered the direct harm or was in danger of suffering the direct harm, it might be easy to say, I am trusting in God so I will not reject this person with the evil history in any way. When, however, the one most likely to suffer at the hands of an evil doer is an innocent child, it cannot be an easy thing at all.

    We must, [when the situation not is one being viewed from the distance (as in the present thread), but is our situation,] seek God's help to do what He would have us to do to protect those who are unable to protect themselves, be they the children or the sex offenders.

    Rules written down ahead of time do not solve all of our problems. They do not prevent people from becoming perpetrators of evil or victims of evil. This was a great lesson received from the OT as clarified by Paul, in particular.

    We must recognize and listen to the voice of God, now, in order to accomplish His will, now, in our situation. For this was the Holy Ghost given...

    "...With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:26
     
  5. brakelite

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    Just next week a young man who has served 12 years for murder ( a nationally publicised episode) and who has now been free for several weeks, is being baptised in our local church. I thank God that Jesus saves such as he, for I also am as guilty as he, having in the past murder in my heart.
    As for the sex offender, society for some reason or another, looks upon such people with far more disdain than murderers. An aquaintance of mine, now a believer, spent some years in jail for raping his own 2 daughters. Jesus has forgiven him, but his relationship with his family unsurprisingly has been permanently damaged. As Brad Huber said, we must continue to pay for our crimes in this life, regardless of our standing with our heavenly Father.
     
  6. jiggyfly

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    Something to consider Moznpeg, while we should offer forgiveness trust is another story. Especially when it comes to trusting someone in an area where they have (had) a weakness. Regaining trust is something that takes time and in some cases a lot of time.
     
  7. dannibear

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    Very well said. To be personal, my father raped me at the age of three, after this incident happened my family moved to Florida. I did not have a relationship nor talk to him for years. It took me quite awhile, but I got the courage to call him and leave a voicemail one day telling him that I forgave him. Fast forward two years later (today) and I sent him a message on Facebook saying Merry Christmas and hoped he had a good one. Although I am being cautious about adding him as my friend on Facebook and about trusting him, I do forgive him and do not hold resentment towards him for what happened. I understand about people's response being that way and breaking your heart, as I feel the same way. I feel pity for the person who holds the hate and grudge in their heart because the only person that it hurts is them. They trap themselves in their own prison of anger.
     
  8. moznpeg

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    what weakness?

    Hello my friend, What weakness were you considering was the weakness I was talking about here? Do you have a weakness in any area or in many areas? I do...I have several weaknesses that I bring to the cross daily and sometimes many times a day. It's a horrible thing that just because a person is on a sex offenders registry (rso), the general public considers him a threat to the-general public, even when there was absolutely no victim involved or any type of violence as well. We as humans need to think the worst of someone because, and let's face it, makes us feel superior to that person. Please don't assume that rso's are all predetors when facts show that persons not on the rso list are committing 95% of the new sex crimes and that's including a whole lot of kids under 18 who get put on that list for life for "sexting" eachother.
    Our wonderful savior Jesus wants us to keep our eyes on Him and when that happens, we don't need to fear anything...anything. True, we should not tempt our Lord by not being watchful around certain folks, but remember that you are starting to disclude them and that pushes them away from their own Savior's people and then there goes fellowship and they tend to stop going to church. Embrass them in Jesus's love and learn more about this problem that is in the body of Christ. Not just the rso's but brothers and sisters who don't trust, watch with anticipation of something happening and focusing on everything but Jesus's love that he has for all of us. Please and I really mean this...please do not shrink our Savior to a small savior. He has accepted all of us just how we are, with all of our weaknesses that offend others too because we all have those, not just a few.
    I tell you this in love because I really want you to know that there is no difference in each of us according to our loving Jesus's love for us.
    Praise God
    Moz
     
  9. jiggyfly

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    I am not passing judgement on anyone and hope you didn't take it that way. Do you consider forgiveness and trust to synonymous?
    Many times I have found that church groups are too trusting with people they only see for a couple of hours on one day a week. It is wrong to trust someone with more trust than they are capable of carrying. A good example is all of the sexual, emotional and or spiritual molestation done by clergy.

    While Jesus said we need to love one another and forgive one another I can find no place where He instructed us to trust one another after we have been treated unfairly. Is it smart to trust someone convicted of pedophilia with your preteens?

    Would you trust someone inept mechanically to change the tire or service the transmission of your car? I know I wouldn't.
     
  10. Opal

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    Very well said, dannibear, you forgive but you remain cautious with offenders. Even in my daily life, persons who have wronged me over and over, I forgive them but I keep my distance with them, and careful in dealing with them if it is necessary. It works great.
     
  11. moznpeg

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    Hello Opal and Jig, Are we to keep ourselves at a distance from our own brothers and sisters in Christ? I think not...the opposite should be done and that's my whole point here. Love the RSO who has repented. If they are born again, bible believing brothers and sisters, then, like it or not, they are part of the body of Christ. If you want to "Not Trust" them, be sure that you really pray about that and don't take it to the level of FEAR. I really do believe what Paul spoke about in 1 Corinthians 13 4-7 and if we really start to abide in that, then fear goes away. Remember, the facts is the facts and if you really need to fear and not trust folks in your church, start with your own family members then move toward those men who are not on a registry becase that's where the overwhelmingly amount of sex crimes comes from. Please don't try to keep that wall of fear and distrust between you and your brothers and sisters who just want to serve the Lord and fellowship with other believers. Sure, there is a need for accountability but that should not make it o.k. for us to look down on and fear those who've paid their debt to society. We don't need to be anybody’s holy spirit.
    I really care about all of you and I just want our Christian family to be one in Christ. Go out and seek those unwanted in your community and show them the love of Christ which should be shinning off of our faces...right?
    Praise God
     
  12. jiggyfly

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    No fear here, just being a responsible mature brother but maybe your still misunderstanding what I've posted.
     
  13. moznpeg

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    Hello my brother, Maybe I have misunderstood your post. Can you please explain it more to me maybe in a different way? I really want to know your point of view. I have truly seen rejection, shunning and discluding because of this thing in the body of Christ. We really do hurt when one member is hurting.
    Please let me know so that I can really chew on it and learn from you.
    Thanks
    Moz
     
  14. bgsda

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    Moznpeg im with you my brother. Im heartbroken to hear the story of that guy who was chased by your congregation and would ask some serious questions about the leadership there. If they claim the Jesus is the leader their, ask them wwjd? Would Jesus have clamped down on him. Would Jesus chase or act different to him? Kinds reminds me of Paul calling out Peter for being a hypocrite in the book of Acts.

    If that guy cannot go to people who are supposed to be Christlike then who can he go to? This sickens me. Then those that believe forgiveness without trust or whatever must have not read all those verses in the Bible that talk about forgive others as we want Christ to forgive us. I know I want Jesus to trust me and not treat me diffent, wouldnt you?
     
  15. jiggyfly

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    The situation between Paul and Mark is a good scriptural example.

    36 After some time Paul said to Barnabas, “Let’s go back and visit each city where we previously preached the word of the Lord, to see how the new believers are doing.”37 Barnabas agreed and wanted to take along John Mark.38 But Paul disagreed strongly, since John Mark had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in their work.39 Their disagreement was so sharp that they separated. Barnabas took John Mark with him and sailed for Cyprus.40 Paul chose Silas, and as he left, the believers entrusted him to the Lord’s gracious care.41 Then he traveled throughout Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches there.
    Acts 15:36-41 (NLT)

    Paul could not trust Mark to be there helping them in the works of their ministry and refused to take Mark with him, but approx. 18 years later Paul says;

    9 Timothy, please come as soon as you can.10 Demas has deserted me because he loves the things of this life and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus has gone to Dalmatia.11 Only Luke is with me. Bring Mark with you when you come, for he will be helpful to me in my ministry.12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus.13 When you come, be sure to bring the coat I left with Carpus at Troas. Also bring my books, and especially my papers.[
    2 Tim 4:9-13 (NLT)

    Now Mark has earn some lost trust from Paul.

    In the same way we don't let a baby have things that they can choke on or a toddler play with a knife, we shouldn't trust someone spiritually immature in areas of their carnal weakness. A youth pastor who has made inappropriate advances towards a young girl should not be trust with the youth until he has matured and proven he can indeed be trusted again in that area. It is foolishness for a parent to entrust such and very irresponsible.
     
  16. bgsda

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    Very good point jiggyfly. I guess well Paul had fleshly behaviors too. That is why we cannot go by any human, no matter who they are, except for Jesus our example1Pet 2:21. Good point though.
     
  17. moznpeg

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    Hello again and I must say this is a good example. The brother in question is a mature christian and had not so much as brushed by a child with sexual intent. It's the other brothers and sisters who are having the problem here. They seem to be using major "JUDGEMENT" on this and thinking, and just maybe, looking for something horrible to happen. Leaven grows wildly and rapidly. What would our Savior do? Maybe this brother who is a rso is needed in that church more than we know. Go help the unwanted people. Rso's are hated, dispised and shunned by the world because of our own thinking and especially in my work, by our own brothers and sisters who try to justify it using scripture. I believe, and I know you do to because I believe you have the Holy Spirit in you that Jesus would embrace them and use them for our good. All things become new and what Satan meant for our destruction, God uses to bring us closer to Him. Also, Rom 8:28. Let's not use our own thinking on this but ask our Father God to help you, me and our brothers and sisters to accept each other because that's why Jesus walked this world in the first place. Knock down the wall of distrust and embrass in His love. Just try it, I'm trying and I want to all day and every day. I, no more will try to earn the trust of a man but I will and do ask my Lord God in Jesus' name with the help of the Holy Spirit to constantly remind me throughout the day that I can't trust myself and to not let go of him and in that, I will not have to worry about the possibility of what someone is thinking that would not be in God's will. Can I get an Amen? Amen! Remember to ask God to show you what's in your heart that might be a stronghold that is keeping you from being more like what Jesus wants us to be. I ask for that and I get scared to know just what will come out of me. He is constantly pouring His Spririt in us to wash out the stuff that's not allowed in heaven...His will be done on earth as it is in heaven and we are made in the image of Christ. What would Jesus do? AMEN!
    Praise the God of Israel
    Moz
     
  18. SpiritLedEd

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    #18 SpiritLedEd, Jan 10, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
    Any sinner can be saved provided he/she sincerely repents and gets counselling. However, its best that the offender be separated from that church until he/she gives evidence of repentance ( see 1 Cor 5:1-3).

    SLE
     
  19. moznpeg

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    Thank you for your comment! What kind of counseling did you have in mind? What crime are you talking about or are you assuming that this person's crime involved a victim? Who is our Counselor when we get saved? Where in God's Word does it say that you have to get any type of counseling to be saved? How would there be evidence of repentance if this brother is separated from the body of Christ? Where does God tell us to be separated from each other? This verse, seems to be for a person who is sinning and cannot stop even after admonition. Sexual addiction is not only among the unbelieving but is just as high in the church...check it out...even our pastors, elders and deacons are having problems concerning sex. I can list the problems for you right here but there is not enough time to do so but one of them is lust of the flesh concerning the underage things we're discussing here.
    This is what I'm talking about-there is very little admonition for our brothers and sisters who think this way. There is even less preaching from the pulpit about this specific sin of division. How do we know who's thinking what and should we just all go get counseling when we get saved? Jesus wants all to come to Him and for all of us to love each other and to encourage each other. Not separate us from each other or for someone to tell someone that they need counseling unless of course you're talking about the 95% of new sex crimes (those who commit them) by the folks not registered as a sex offender?! This problem with judging and looking down on them is not healthy. We as parts of the body of Christ need counseling by His Holy Spirit and that starts with asking God, in Jesus’ name to search our own hearts, souls and minds and to flush out the things that are in us and replace it with the Holy Spirit and not our own thinking. Just because you asked, the administrative pastor who came down hard on this person was himself a guy who while backsliding, engaged in an extramarital affair with a woman who was married and thus ruined two families, children included, for many years to come but he is not on a sex offenders list. He did repent but I don't think, nor have I heard if he ever got counseling for that. By the way, he himself is a Psychologist! Society accepts this but if someone is on a list, which does absolutley nothing to protect anybody, that person is osterized by the very people who God created him to be with. Let's Embrace, Embrace and then Embrace them. These folks are at the bottom of the gutter as far as the world sees them and a really big part of that is his own brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus wants us to take care of the people on the bottom of this world's totem pole.
     

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