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Who Or What Is The Second Beast of Rev 13?

Discussion in 'The Evidence & Prophecy' started by canada, Aug 16, 2012.

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  1. canada

    canada Member

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    WHO OR WHAT IS THE SECOND BEAST OF REV 13?


    The Bible refers to he (or) it, as the False (religious) Prophet. Students of prophecy from the past, such as the Reformation saints and martyrs, and many present day expositors indicate that the biblical description refers to the Church Of Rome and it’s pope or papacy throughout the ages.

    I agree … I believe the Vatican hierarchy (Bishops and Cardinals etc) AND its papacy is the entity described as being the False Prophet.
    Dictionary, the word “vatic” means … prophet.

    VATIC = VATICAN = PROPHET = FALSE PROPHET


    If we use our Bibles only, and not our presuppositions, can we determine whether the False Prophet is a “he” … or an … “it”?
    The following versions render the False Prophet as … “he”.
    Amplified Version
    KJV and NKJ Version
    Mounce Reverse Interlinear
    New American Standard

    The following versions render the False Prophet as … “it”.
    New International Version
    American Standard
    Common English Bible
    Darby Translation
    English Standard Version
    J.B. Phillips New Testament
    Young’s Literal Translation
    Wycliffe Bible
    My Greek/English Interlinear renders “it” also.

    Well, I believe both are correct. If the False Prophet is the decision making Vatican hierarchy with its bishops and cardinals, than “it” is appropriate.

    If the False Prophet is a pope, than “he” is a logical term to use.
    Revelation has been a 30 year study of interest for me. I will submit a post describing how THEY cause “fire” to come down from heaven on the earth … in the sight of men. Rev 13:13.
    ccc
     
    #1 canada, Aug 16, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2012
  2. Romans 8.28

    Romans 8.28 New Member

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    Hi Canada, and I'll just touch on these. If you'll notice, the first beast is said to come from the sea in Revelation 13:1, and another beast coming up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11.

    Gentiles are compared to troubled seas, and Israel to the earth which we find containing servants of God below.

    Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    I believe the antichrist will come out of the Gentiles as a ruler with power; Isaiah 60:5 "Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

    Whereas the false prophet will be Jewish coming forth from the earth. Revelation 13:12. "And he (The false prophet) exerciseth all the power of the first beast (The antichrist) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."
     
  3. canada

    canada Member

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    THE FALSE PROPHET WAS REVEALED
    Where were our watchmen on the wall?

    The False Prophet of Revelation 13 was revealed in his time. IT, was revealed by the Reformation saints and martyrs.

    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and IT had two horns like a lamb, and IT spake as a dragon.

    And IT exerciseth all the power of the first beast before IT, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    .

    The Vatican hierarchy and it’s papal system IS the False Prophet.
    The word “vatic” means “prophet” therefore:

    VATIC = PROPHET = VATICAN = FALSE PROPHET

    And it doeth great signs (wonders) so that it maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles … …

    There is a very simple explanation as to how it makes “fire” to come down from “heaven on the earth in the sight of men”, and how it makes all those (deceiving) “miracles”.

    For the followers of the beast, “heaven on the earth” is their papal city. That great city that reigns over kings of the earth, and merchandizes in the souls of men. Rev 18:13. It merchandizes in their souls by the payment of money for indulgences, and the release of souls from their “purgatory”.

    Vatican City, the small but most powerful and influential sovereign “little horn” kingdom in the world … this city is their heaven on earth.
    These great wonders and “miracles” that it does (in the sight of men) are not true wonders of God … but are lying signs and wonders.

    Jesus turned water into wine, but Rome far surpasses that, for it claims to turn wine into the literal blood of Jesus … this is one of their mighty miracles of the “mass”, performed by the priests of the False Prophet. The priests then “drink the blood” from the golden cup.

    That is why Rev 16:6 tells us: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets (martyrs) and thou hast given them blood to drink.
    Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works, in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. Rev 18:6.

    That great city and kingdom of the False Prophet and its followers with the mark on their right hand and forehead is Vatican City.

    [FONT=&amp]VATICAN[/FONT][FONT=&amp] ‘MIRACLES” . . . it is the Vatican itself that promotes, investigates, authenticates and declares as such, the thousands upon thousands of it’s so-called “miracles”. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Who has not heard their tales of “winking” Madonnas, “weeping” images and miracles and cures wrought through the power of “sacred relics” and the bones of dead saints. Even raising of the dead has been claimed. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]According to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, the wafer host “has been the object of a great many miracles” including, the bread being turned to stone and wafer hosts which have bled and continued to bleed. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Once it is realized that the False Prophet is not a lone individual but rather a powerful sovereign religious state exercising worldwide control over many rulers of the earth, then Revelation’s descriptive verses become logical and intellectually understandable. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]How does the Church of Rome cause “FIRE” to come down … in the sight of men? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]I don’t know how current prophecy teachers would explain how this “fire” can come down, but here is my understanding from the perspective of an historicist and the teachings of the greats of the Reformation, who were of ONE VOICE in clearly stating that the papacy is the beast and the direct fulfillment of II Thess II . . . so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]It is a well documented fact that more than a few popes have claimed to be “God on earth”[/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The pope is the “Vicar Of Christ” … vicarious … instead of Christ … in place of Christ. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The biblical meaning of the word “anti” is not against Christ, nor opposed to Christ, but rather … in place of Christ … a substitute. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]The interpretation regarding the “fire”[/FONT][FONT=&amp] . . . symbolically, this is exactly what the Vatican does, for by the “sign” of the papal headdress, called the “MITRE”, the False Prophet places the power and presence of the “Holy Spirit” upon the pope and his cardinals and bishops, According to their official doctrine, the deeply cleft mitre with its unusual shape that appears like two horns or like two tongues placed together forming two points, symbolizes the presence of the Holy Spirit upon them as did the “CLOVEN TONGUES OF FIRE” that appeared upon the head of the Apostles. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]And that folks is how the False Prophet “doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth … IN THE SIGHT OF MEN. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Brothers and sisters, do not look for literal fire to come down in your sight, Satan is too subtle and too deceptive for that. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The “Papal Peter” is the “image of the beast” … the “head” that dies and yet has life.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The Vatican is the False Vatic (prophet) with its “lying signs and wonders”.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Recommended reading relative to the Vatican’s visible and secret involvement in the affairs of this world would be: [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The Vatican Moscow Washington Alliance, The Vatican in World Politics The Vatican Billions . . . all by Avro Manhattan. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats . . . .
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]This prophecy points DIRECTLY to the Roman Catholic priesthood with its rule of celibacy and, if you are old enough to remember, their admonition to its followers to abstain from eating meat and instead, eat fish on Friday. This directive was in effect until recent times, and according to one report, the current “Papal Peter” is considering re-instituting that rule. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]THE BIBLE IS THE TRUE PROPHET . . . THE VATICAN IS THE FALSE PROPHET [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]When we think of the word “prophet” we normally think of one who foretells future events, but I believe the primary OT meaning for this word, was one acting as a spokesman for God … like Moses. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]To identify the “False” Prophet, we should look for a prophet who claims to be a spokesman for God. Those who understand the true and inspired Word of God will recognize this prophet because its message contains a mix of truth and error. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]As the Biblical requirement for God’s prophets demand complete accuracy, God therefore calls this false spokesman the “false” prophet. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]As noted earlier, the False Prophet described in the Bible is not an individual person doing signs and wonders. Biblically, the interpretation reveals that this “prophet” is the administrative body of a gigantic religious organization. It wields its mighty power throughout the world, for even kings, queens and world leaders are subservient to this “prophet” and it’s pope[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]In fulfillment of prophecy, it changes TIMES (the Gregorian calendar) and LAWS. The Church of Rome changes God’s law, the ten commandments. Its official catechism shows that it splits our tenth commandment into two, and combines the first and second. This to avoid the problem of its idolatry and its use of images and idols of Mary etc. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]On page 573 of its catechism it states that God introduced a new “economy” of images. Article 2132 states: The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honour rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honour paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Protestants are not swayed by such crafty manipulation of words. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]Some may be of the opinion that what I have presented in posts of The Interpretation are mere coincidence . . . things and events that just “happen” to fit the prophecies in the Bible. It is my sincere hope that some will re-examine what currently is being taught about Bible prophecy and the last days. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]Within the walls of this “heaven on the earth” the Vatican controls ALL BUYING AND SELLING.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]Vatican City[/FONT][FONT=&amp] has its own coinage, shops, jail and post office. It also has its own civil law, courts, flag, coat of arms and crown. The pope is the absolute sovereign head in this small but worldly kingdom … the little horn spoken of by Daniel. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Roman Catholic historians have confirmed that decrees were issued to its followers to conduct no commerce … ie NO BUYING OR SELLING, with non-Roman Catholics or excommunicated former Catholics, as they themselves would be excommunicated and therefore “unsaved”. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]This type of conduct was quite common, particularly during the historical “Dark Ages” of Romanism’s powerful “Inquisition” and its atrocities. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The beast on seven hills is Romanism, and it is only those misguided souls who worship within the world of Roman Catholicism that are deceived by its “miraculous” signs and wonders. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]“… Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. I also will choose their delusion … “[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Brothers and sisters, as students of prophecy, should we continually be looking to the future for the fulfillment of prophecy … I suggest we consider the past. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]The saints and martyrs of the Reformation cry out to you … understand.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]My favourite theologian is Sir Isaac Newton. He wrote more about Bible prophecy than he did regarding his scientific discoveries.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]He said: “If God was so angry with the Jews for not searching more diligently into the prophecies which He had given them to know Christ by, why should we think He will excuse us for not searching into the prophecies which He hath given us to know antichrist by?”[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]Newton[/FONT][FONT=&amp] had no doubts as to the identity of Antichrist and the ***** of Babylon. He vented his spleen against the idolatry of a church which had treasured rotten relics, had encouraged the magical use of the sign of the cross, and was responsible for the spreading of monkery.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]** In Newton’s mind, the task of the scholar was to show that biblical prophecies had been fulfilled in historical events. One could know, however, only AFTER the event, and it was not for the student of prophecy to become a prophet … Until the event occurred, the prophecies pertaining to it could well remain obscure. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]This was an important point for Newton … All would become clear in due course. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]To God be the glory.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&amp]ccc[/FONT]
     
  4. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Revelations 17

    15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and

    multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast,

    these will hate the harlot
    and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and

    will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by

    having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of

    God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over

    the kings of the earth.”



    The beast and the ten horns hate the harlot!

    So obviously the beast is not the harlot (great city, papacy?).
     
  5. canada

    canada Member

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    POPE GOD ON EARTH
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that HE AS GOD sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. II Thess 2:3-4

    The Popes (literally) claim to be "God on earth”.
    All powers, titles, glory and honour bestowed upon any one pope belongs to all popes.

    All these claims have been incessantly and universally urged all down the centuries by the popes of Rome, and are still advanced, as boldly as ever, in official decretals, bulls, extravagants, decisions of canonists, sentences of judges, books, catechisms, sermons, and treatises of all kinds. There is no mistaking what they amount to.

    The Pope claims Divine inspiration, his words are to be received as the words of God; no laws can bind him, he is supreme over all, the very Scriptures derive their authority from him.

    "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

    "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
    Catholic National July 1895

    "The Pope is the Supreme Judge of the law of the land ... He is the viceregent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords". La Civilta Cattolica, March 18 1871

    "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation ... That which was spoken of Christ 'thou hast subdued all things under His feet', may well seem verified in me ... I have the authority of the King of kings.

    I am all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the Vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do, what therefore, can you make of me but God." Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

    By using this title Vicar of God, that is to say he is in place of God, for that is the meaning of vicar or vicarious.

    "We define that the Holy Apostolic See (Vatican) and the Roman Pontiff hold the primacy over the whole world."
    A decree of the Council of Trent, quoted in Philippe Labbe and Gabriel Cossart, "The Most Holy Councils." col. 1167

    "Indeed, it is not to much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are man gods."
    The Dignity Of The Priesthood by Liquori pg 36.

    There are many more damning statements that could be provided, but these should be sufficient to convince anyone that they are claiming that their Pope is God on earth. I will close for now, with one more example:

    Pope Nicholas I declared: "The appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man." Labb IX dist.5 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur,
    Decret Gratian Primer.


    What does our Bible have to say about this subject?

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:3-4.

    Students of prophecy … this does not require rocket science intellect. This clearly is what the saints and martyrs have been telling us since the Reformation. They were burnt alive at the stake declaring the errors of Rome … and yet today this is dismissed because the claim is that the False Prophet is yet future.

    Martin Luther said “… … the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist … “

    John Knox of Scotland said the pope should be recognized as “the very antichrist”.

    Regarding the papacy, John Wesley said “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure.”

    Thomas Cranmer said … “Wherefore it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself.”

    The original Westminster Confession of Faith had this to say:
    There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof but is that Antichrist that Man of Sin, and Son of Perdition that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.
    Chapter 26 Article 6.

    Sir Isaac Newton stated: “If the apostasy be rightly charged upon the Church of Rome, it follows that the man of sin is the pope, not meaning this or that pope in particular, but the pope in general as the chief head and supporter of this apostasy.” From Newton’s “Dissertations On The Prophecies”.

    As long as the “predictions” of today’s prophecy experts are continually placed into the future, how can they be proved wrong? This is the luxury of Hal Lindsay eschatology and that system of interpretation.

    Again, the Vatican hierarchy and its Pope is the … False Prophet.
    The word “vatic” means “prophet”.

    VATIC = PROPHET = VATICAN = FALSE PROPHET

    ccc






     
  6. jari

    jari New Member

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    Probably someone who has not come yet. remember rev says people will have to receive mark. those who dont worship the beast and receive mark will be killed. The Pope and others have been around for decades. the beast's and false prophets reign isnt that long but their effect much greater than all papal history.
    christians have already escaped roman catholic churches persecuation by freedom of practicing own religion. so as far as i can see vatican is out of the picture as its days of dominion are over. and i dont believe world will ever be subject to religious leadership like vatican ever again. it has to be something new.. some believe All religions will unite. (christians muslims) false prophet using miracles could cause this deceivement. But Beast could be techolical advancement too. Remember beasts number is number of Man (666).

    Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
     
  7. canada

    canada Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Romans 8:28, David777 and Yari … sorry for the long delay in response … still working my way through posting/reply/quick reply and pm’s.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Roman 8:28 … you said: I believe the antichrist will come out of the Gentiles as a ruler with power whereas the false prophet will be Jewish coming forth from the earth.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I think one of the most misunderstood and misleading terms used by students of prophecy is to say … ”The” antichrist.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]IS THERE A "THE" ANTICHRIST?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1John 2:18[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Note that the Greek does not state "the" antichrist shall come. The meaning could be the spirit of all those opposed to Christ, and not necessarily a single individual, as there are many antichrists as 1John tells us.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1John 2:19.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Note that six times the reference is to ... "they", not one individual.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ: He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1John 2:22[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is the word "he" in this passage indicating one single individual? Is there only one that denies?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that (spirit) of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]1John 4:3.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Does the text say "the" antichrist should come, or is it "the spirit of antichrist" that should come?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The text tells us that "it" is already in the world. Clearly "it" is the spirit of those opposed to Christ and not a single individual.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2John 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Do the above passages prove that there is one single individual that is "the" antichrist? I think not.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]However,the Bible indicates the following as possibly being a single individual, or a singular kingdom.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" little horn.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The man of sin.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The son of perdition.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" rider on the first white horse.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" beast out of the earth.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" first beast.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" second beast.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" False Prophet.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" numbered beast.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"The" image of the beast.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Using the term "the antichrist" (as though there is only one) is deceptive and leads to confusion if we wish to seriously discuss (for example) the False Prophet, or the image of the beast etc..[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Revelation NEVER uses the term antichrist to identify one of its subjects.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Satan is quite satisfied that Christians continue to use that term, for as long as they do, the identity of those individual subjects in Revelation and elsewhere remains clouded and obscure, leading to confusion by using such an all encompassing, non specific identifying term.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Example: If you were to say ... Obama is "the antichrist", the question still remains unclear as to what you are claiming.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Are you saying he is the "little horn"?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Are you saying he is one of the beasts?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Are you saying he is the false prophet?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Are you saying he is the numbered beast? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Are you saying he is the image of the beast?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Consider the statement "He is antichrist". Compare that fuzzy, non identifying, all encompassing statement to the following:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]A discussion takes place between two Christians that study and understand Bible prophecy wherein one says: "The pope or is the False Prophet." [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]That cuts to the quick. There is no confusion. Whether he is right or wrong in his claim, you KNOW exactly what he is claiming. Your mind is not cluttered up with all the other possible options. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I think there would be much less confusion between opposing posters if they would come straight out and say exactly what they mean and who they are referring to instead of the reader having to try and decipher some fuzzy statement or word such as antichrist.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I hope this makes sense to students of prophecy.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]ccc[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
     
  8. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Agree Jari, 100%.

    "The man of lawlessness" is a man, not a papacy.

    So the pope claims to be God, so what.

    Pharaohs, emperors, kings have all claimed to be God.

    British royalty was divinely destined to rule.

    Japanese emperors were divine.

    Claiming to be God is the norm for despots.
     
  9. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Vatican = false prophet ?

    The name "Vatican" predates Christianity and comes from the Latin Mons Vaticanus, meaning Vatican Mount. The territory of Vatican City is part of the Mons Vaticanus, and of the adjacent former Vatican Fields. It is in this territory that St. Peter's Basilica, the Apostolic Palace, the Sistine Chapel, and museums were built, along with various other buildings. The area was part of the Roman rione of Borgo until 1929. Being separated from the city, on the west bank of the Tiber river, the area was an outcrop of the city that was protected by being included within the walls of Leo IV (847–55), and later expanded by the current fortification walls, built under Paul III (1534–49), Pius IV (1559–65) and Urban VIII (1623–44). (wikipedia)
     
  10. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there comes a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Hey canada, you quoted from 2 Thessalonians 2,

    2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

    Do not be deceived about what?

    Please read the passages again!



     
  11. canada

    canada Member

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    David 777 ... You noted in part that the name "Vatican" predates Christianity ... "

    So what? What is your point?

    VATIC ... resembling or characteristic of a prophet or prophecy, "the high priest's divinatory prouncement" ... "mantic powers".
    "A kind of sybyline book with ready and infallible answers to questions".

    VATICANUS ... the Word and its Meaning from which is derived the word Vatican as in Vatican City the Imperial seat of the Roman Caesars.

    A title of the Caesars was ... Pontifex Maximus High Priest

    A title of the pope is ... Pontifex Maximus.
     
  12. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Very simple canada.

    The name "Vatican" predates Christianity and comes from the Latin Mons Vaticanus, meaning Vatican Mount.

    The name Vatican has nothing to do with prophecy!

    The name is from the Latin Mons Vaticanus!

    Mons Vaticanus is a geographical place.

    Vatican as such is also a geographical place.

    Your extraction of the meaning of Vatican is faulty.

    I will provide you with a place name "Los Angeles".

    Extracted meaning is city of angels (messengers of God).

    Is los Angeles a place or is it the city of angels???

     
  13. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Hello canada.

    Let's not split hairs.

    You are convinced no doubt that you have
    the full and accurate revelation of the Gospel.

    So canada for the sake of us who walk in the
    darkness I would request that we examine
    post 3. This is where you made some quite
    astounding claims.

    It is your duty to answer our questions regarding
    post 3.

    Please if possible reduce post lengths to say 10
    to fifteen lines. Otherwise too much confusion
    results. Long posts very few people will read.
     
    #13 David777, Aug 20, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  14. Romans 8.28

    Romans 8.28 New Member

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    I reckon we could describe what I and many refer to the antichrist under various descriptions leaving the reader to guess who I am talking of. In Daniel Chapter Seven I could label him as the eleventh horn of the fourth beast, a horn making war with the saints, the one thinking to change times and laws, and all this not to be confused with the horn of Daniel Chapter Eight. This all seems like a term in use today, and that is being politically correct.

    You ask if there is a "The" Antichrist." To me there is and I know him as that man of sin, the son of perdition so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. You are correct in defining many antichrists, but I think you will find that the overall consensus among Christians worldwide is that they recognize the title of the "Antichrist" as belonging to the very one that is shown to be the beast of Revelation 20:10, a part of the unholy trinity; not to be confused with the four beasts of Revelation 4:6.

    You asked if I would describe a certain one as a little horn. Which one? I'm confused, and I'm just kidding for I do know the difference, but that is the problem in attempting to narrow it down by describing all the characterizations of the one most have come to know as the antichrist. You also mention the False Prophet, and would it help all understand better if I called him a little horn also? Well Canada, these are just my thoughts. I've come up against similar problems when describing the "Catching up" of saints as the rapture, and I have just never considered using modern vernacular as harmful. If the recipient doesn't understand, I can then go deeper with them.

    Thanks for your reply in Jesus' name.
     
  15. canada

    canada Member

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    David777,

    A pivotal point of my presentation regarding the False Prophet is the relation of vatic (prophet) to Vatican to False Prophet.

    You have strongly denied this point by stating “the word Vatican has nothing to do with prophecy.”

    Research the word Vatican in many Latin-English/English-Latin dictionaries, or encyclopedias, and you will likely find that Vatican City and St. Peter’s Basilica of the Roman Catholic Church were built upon what was called in Latin vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis. The words mon and collis mean hill or mountain. You will also find in the dictionaries that the words vatic/vates/vatis all relate to prophecy.

    vaticinati-o-unis prophesying, soothsaying, prophecy
    vaticin-ium prophet, seer
    vaticin-us-a-em adjective prophetic

    Source: The New College Latin and English dictionary, revised and
    enlarged, byJohn C. “Traupman, Ph.D..

    Of the words listed above containing “vatic” … all relate to prophecy.
    The word vatic and its association to prophecy can even be found in a standard English dictionary.

    Vaticanus then is a combination of Vatic + anus, just as Romanus is a combination of Rome + anus. Therefore, vaticanus collis or vaticanus mons mean “the prophetic hill or mountain”, which can be rephrased as the hill or mountain of prophecy.

    The word Vatican is just a shortened form of the word Vaticanus, just like Claudian is a shortened form Claudianus. This association of the Vatican with prophecy is even confirmed by Catholics:

    Do you still stand firm on your statement that the word Vatican has nothing to do with prophecy?

    Where does the word “Vatican” come from and what does it mean?

    The word derives from the Latin vates, which means “tellers of the future.”

    Source: Nino Lo Bello, Liguori Publications, Copyright 1998 ISBN 0-7648-0171-6, page 125

    There is more, but that should be sufficient to silence those who deny.

    You have also said “You (canada) are convinced no doubt that you have the full and accurate revelation of the Gospel”.

    It is clear that you desire a confrontation … I made no such claim.

    You then said: “So, canada for the sake of us who walk in darkness … “

    With that statement our discussion is now closed … you have won.

    To the reader, I am not here to joust or win a debate. We present historical evidence to show that some prophecies have been fulfilled (from the perspective of the historicist) as opposed to those who continue to place them into the future.

    The reader can consider, accept or reject the evidence presented.
    Thank you to all.
     
  16. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Farewell canada.

    You stated in your last post;

    Research the word Vatican in many Latin-English/English-Latin dictionaries, or encyclopedias, and you will likely find that Vatican City and St. Peter’s Basilica of the Roman Catholic Church were built upon what was called in Latin vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis. The words mon and collis mean hill or mountain. You will also find in the dictionaries that the words vatic/vates/vatis all relate to prophecy.

    You even confirmed that Vatican = Vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis.

    The name "Vatican" predates Christianity and comes from
    the Latin Mons Vaticanus, meaning Vatican Mount (or hill)It is a geographical location.

    Some theology you have there, it collapsed over the
    simple meaning of Vatican.





     
  17. canada

    canada Member

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    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
    The three most common systems for the interpretation of prophecy are:
    preterism … historicism … futurism … (past, present, future).

    The Jesuits Alcazar, Lacunza and Ribera introduced and promoted preterism and futurism, as the finger of prophecy was pointing directly at the papacy and Romanism, hence Rome’s “counter reformation”. Preterism and futurism are the most popular systems today.

    I think that most here would likely follow the system of futurism.
    I was a futurist for 10 years. My library of futurist authors stacked almost as high as myself.

    Until preterism and futurism come to understanding the truth of historicism, and realize that the saints and martyrs of the Reformation were not dummies regarding Daniel, Revelation and the papacy as being the second beast of Revelation, historic events will be missed.

    Futurism in particular will be in constant expectation of what is “going” to happen, having missed events that have already come to pass.

    The Hal Lindsay’s of this world have made a lot of money telling us what to expect next, and as long as it does not come to pass, who can say they are wrong?

    There is no accountability. I am sure they are sincere about their predictions, but I believe, sincerely wrong.

    Sir Isaac Newton wrote more on the prophecies of the Bible than his own scientific discoveries. He told us that we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass.

    The historicist observed and saw that in 1948 Israel “became a nation in a day”. The historicist may not have known when that day was to occur, but the OT spoke of that day.

    The historicist also observed the Revived Roman Empire starting to form.
    Hosted by the Vatican, exploratory talks began in that same year 1948.
    I believe they were held in the Sistine Chapel.

    It was in 1957 that the Treaty Of Rome created the (EEC) European Economic Community … today’s EU. Hosted again by the pope, the signing of this great event took place on one of the “seven hills of Rome”, the Capitoline Hill.

    The historicist also observed that the original group of six did become ten and a “little horn” did rise up among them.

    The futurists missed that. The Hal Lindsays of the day were telling us that the eleventh nation to join would herald in the powerful bad guy.

    Daniel said “among them” not in addition to them.
    The futurists saw the eleventh and nothing happened. Then it became twelve and nothing happened, then thirteen.

    At that time, they told us that now that it was thirteen, three would be uprooted and it would go back to 10 horns again and then the action would really begin..

    Not sure, but I think the horns are now up to 27.

    Next the futurists told us that the EU assembly had seat numbers and seat 665 was assigned to a member observer, so lets keep our eye on who fills seat 666, because then we would know who the beast was or represented.

    Well, that came and fizzled out as another “prediction”.

    I scrolled down the list of those “seats” and noticed that seat number 66 was assigned to the representative of the … Vatican.

    I guess I could have been like a futurist and said … well, the number of man is 6 therefore the man who represents seat 66 could be the 666 man.

    No I did not. Having been a futurist for 10 years, I had learned my lesson about their failed predictions.

    The following believers were historicists. I don’t think biblical scholars would consider them to be dummies regarding Daniel, Revelation and the papacy.

    Charles Spurgeon
    Matthew Henry
    John Wesley
    John Knox
    Albert Barnes Commentary
    The Geneva Bible Translators
    Adam Clark Commentary
    Gratton Guinness
    E.B. Elliott
    Philip Mauro
    Sir Isaac Newton
    John Foxe (Foxe’s Book of Martyrs)
    John Bunyan (Pilgrim’s Progress)

    ccc
     
    #17 canada, Aug 23, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  18. David777

    David777 New Member

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    [FONT=Palatino,Book Antiqua] Those who followed events surrounding David Koresh of Waco may be interested to know that he, along with Adventists, are some of the few historicists of contemporary times, even though this view enjoyed dominance from the time of the Reformation until the beginning of the twentieth century. "

    The historicist view, sometimes called the continuous-historical view, contends that Revelation is a symbolic presentation of the entire course of the history of the church from the close of the first century to the end of time.

    This spiritualistic approach is built upon the day/year theory, whereby the 1260 days (literally 3 1/2 years) of Daniel and Revelation cover the time (1260 years) of the domination of anti-Christ over the church. Another variation would be to apply the day/year theory to the 2300 days of Daniel 8.

    Thus, the role of the historicist is to figure out when anti-Christ came to power (i.e., the Roman Church and the Papacy) and add 1260 or 2300 years and you have the time of the Second Coming and the defeat of anti-Christ. So if this time started some time during the reign of Constantine, say 350, then you add the two together and you would come out with 1610. American William Miller used a variation of the day/year theory by using the 2300 days of Daniel 8:4 as the basis for his scheme.


    Another feature of historicism is seen in their effort to correlate events of Revelation with events occurring in the present church age. As the historicist sees contemporary events creeping closer to the Second Coming of Christ in Revelation 19, this leads to further date-setting as to the precise year with their day/year scheme.

    Not only are Seventh Day Adventist historicists in their views of prophecy, but so are the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. This explains why Jehovah Witnesses have been such big date-setters. They have merely implemented the logic of the day/year theory.


    " The historicist is constantly confronted with the dilemma of a far-fetched spiritualization in order to maintain the chain of historical events," claims Dr. Tenney, " or else if he makes the events literal in accordance with the language of the text he is compelled to acknowledge that no comparable events in history have happened. The demise of historicism has resulted in less date-setting in our own day than had occurred during the era when historicism was popular.

    [/FONT]
     
  19. canada

    canada Member

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    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> I imagine most here would be too young to remember the ten horns of Daniel and the little horn (diverse from the others) that rose up among them.

    Nor would they be aware of all the failed predictions of the futurist experts of that day.

    A cunning tactic … historicist guilt by association:

    Charles Spurgeon … David Koresh
    Matthew Henry … Mormons
    Isaac Newton … JW’s

    Here also, is an association:

    Vatic … prophet or prophecy
    Vatical … prophet or prophecy
    Vaticinal … prophetic
    Vaticinari … predict
    Vaticinate … anticipate, forewarn, predict, portend
    Vaticination … the act of prophesying, a prediction, a prophecy

    And yet some would deny any association of vatic with vatican.
     
  20. canada

    canada Member

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    If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived.

    Sir Isaac Newton wrote more on Bible prophecy than on his scientific findings. He said:
    “If God was so angry with the Jews for not searching more diligently into the prophecies which He had given them to know Christ by, why should we think He will excuse us for not searching into the prophecies which He hath given us to know Antichrist by?”
    Newton had no doubts as to the identity of Antichrist and the ***** of Babylon … that is, the Church of Rome and its pope.

    In Newton’s mind, the task of the scholar was to show that biblical prophecies had been fulfilled in historical events. One could know, however, only AFTER the event, and it was not for the student of prophecy to become a prophet … until the event occurred, the prophecies pertaining to it could well remain obscure. This was an important point for Newton … all would become clear in due course.

    THE MARK OF THE BEAST
    And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (This was literally fulfilled during the papal Inquisition and the “dark ages”).

    And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their RIGHT hand, or in their foreheads.
    Rev 13:15-16.

    The interpretation:
    The “mark” is literal and it is visible. Christianity sees it but does not perceive it.

    When was the last time you saw a Roman Catholic make the mark of the cross with his left hand? This sign, always made with the right hand, identifies the papal beast and his followers.

    With his RIGHT hand the Roman Catholic priest places the mark upon the forehead of its infants at baptism, and when the wood fires are burnt on Ash Wednesday, he uses the ashes to place the mark on the forehead of the adult followers of the beast.

    WHERE WERE THE WATCHMEN ON THE WALL?
    The Reformation saints and martyrs had warned us about the errors of Romanism … was Christianity deaf … or was it deceived? If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived.

    Let no man deceive you by any means; for (that day shall not come) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Who opposeth and exaltheth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God … and now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed IN HIS TIME …And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thess 2.

    It is a well documented fact that more than a few popes have claimed to be “God On Earth”. Just as each pope today claims to be the
    Vicar Of Christ … “in place of Christ” … “instead of Christ”.

    According to the Council of Trent, the Church of Rome states that this mark is alleged to be indelible, given through the sign of the cross on the subject’s forehead by the right hand of the priest or bishop.

    Coincidence or prophecy fulfilled?

    Current alternatives … a bar code? a computer chip? I think not.

    Students of prophecy consider what the saints and martyrs of the Reformation had to say about the papacy and the religion of Rome.

    Rand Winburn Protestant Reformation Publisher, asked the following:

    “My question to the sincere Roman Catholic readership of this message board is, What other religious organization on the face of planet earth utilizes, as a fundamental part of its religious rites and observances, a self-professed indelible MARK on the soul given in the forehead by the right hand of the priest?”

    ccc
     

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