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When will the rapture take place?

Discussion in 'The Evidence & Prophecy' started by Faithful Son, May 9, 2006.

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  1. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    I have read alot of verses in the Bible that talks about the rapture, it's not called the rapture, but that's what Christians call it.

    When I was a church regular a few years back I was tuaght that the rapture would take place before the second coming of Christ, I have watched a few shows on tv on the Gospel channels and the same thing was said.

    But the fact is, why doesn't the Bible say that?
    _________________________________________________________________
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

    15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore comfort one another with these words. _________________________________________________________________

    So this verse clearly says that it will happen at Christs return, why do churches teach it differently?

    Am I wrong in interpreting these verses?
     
  2. sunshine307

    sunshine307 New Member

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    Teraside, I don't believe the churches are teaching different from what the Bible says. I don't know if you have seen this outline map of the book of Revelation that Chad posted. - http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=7237


    I think that describes well the way things take place. In the first three chapters of Revelation it tells of the churches and what God has to say to them. I believe that after that, before the start of the fourth chapter is when the church is raptured. The second coming is when we come with Him. :teeth:
     
  3. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    I don't understand sunshine :) Sorry for my stupidity, I'll read it again for sure.

    Edit: Just read it I don't understand it though
     
    #3 Faithful Son, May 9, 2006
    Last edited: May 9, 2006
  4. sunshine307

    sunshine307 New Member

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    It's not your stupidity teraside, it's a hard subject to explain, and different people have different views on it. I believe the verses you quoted are referring to the rapture, when Christians (both those still alive and those who have died already) are taken to be with the Lord. We are taken out at this stage. I'll let someone who knows more about what happens next explain better, but the Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events.
     
  5. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    Thanks for trying sunshine, maybe someone can give me direction on this.
     
  6. topzy

    topzy New Member

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    Are you bothered by the fact that so many preachers sorry to say major in the minor all because they need to emphasise their points?
    Peter says in the third chapter of his second book that jesus is coming back and the father is not slacking in ensuring this,but He wants more people to get saved.What we are expecting is the return of our lord Jesus xt.His glorious second coming.It's just going to be about the ascention of the saints both living and dead.
     
    #6 topzy, May 10, 2006
    Last edited: May 10, 2006
  7. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    I don't think I have a full understanding of the word saint, but I believe every believer in Christ will be caught up to heaven, not just select people:

    Luke 17:30-37

    30"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

    31"On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.

    32"Remember Lot's wife.

    33"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

    34"I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.

    35"There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.

    36["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]

    37And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."
     
  8. Chad

    Chad Administrator
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    Article from gotquestions.org

    The word "rapture" does not occur in the Bible. The concept of the Rapture, though, is clearly taught in Scripture. The Rapture of the church is the event in which God removes all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the Tribulation period. The Rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 describes the Rapture as God resurrecting all believers who have died, giving them glorified bodies, and then departing the earth with those believers who were still alive, who have also been given glorified bodies. "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

    1 Corinthians 15:50-54 focuses on the instantaneous nature of the Rapture and on the glorified bodies we will receive. "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). The Rapture is the glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God's presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the Rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, in regards to the Rapture, God wants us to “encourage each other with these words.”
     
  9. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    Thank you Chad, you have encouraged me :)
     
  10. Fellowservant

    Fellowservant New Member

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    Hi: teraside.... read below

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    So the rapture wont take place untill we see a falling away first.. and the man of sin is revealed. (ie Antichrist)


    We wont know the day or the hour, but Christ said there would be signs of his comming...some use the thief in the night doctrine to try and prove we wont know anything before his second comming, they call it the imminent return of Christ, thier only useing one verse and running with it...we have to look at them all. The world will be caught as a thief... and disobedient saints, but not them who are watching and waiting for his return. The scriptures im giving you will prove that we will know hes coming, but NOT what day or hour.


    Then you will know when to exspect your final redemption. Will the gathering to him and his second comming be in the same time frame or same event?
    It could be, and it might not be, because he said he would shorten those days for the elects sake. So we should expect his coming or rapture sometime after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed (ie Antichrist)...not before. Jesus says when you see these things come to pass then lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near...lifting up your head now.. will only give you a sore neck:star: Prophecy must be fulfilled.

    Read below


    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.

    So no thief in the night rapture, to them who are saved and watching. A thief only breaks in when your not watching:shade:

    Now some signs of his comming, plus what to watch for... before his comming, below...



    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth NIGH .



    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh (or near).




    The above verse shows us what will come to pass before our final redemption to Christ comes. So we see there will be signs of his coming, before our gathering (ie rapture) to him...

    Read matthew 24 as well...its almost the same.



    God bless...
     
  11. Faithful Son

    Faithful Son New Member

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    As you can probably see from the thread I am trying to find out when the rapture will take place, pre, mid or post tribulation.
    At this moment I am convinced the rapture will take place pre-tribulation, before the revealing of the antichrist.
    I have this conviction because the Lord promised to deliver us from the hour of trial.

    Revelation 3:10
    10'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    And 1 Thessalonians 5:9
    9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    I use the nasb, please read your preferred Bible.
    I am praying about this, and asking God to give me direction. If I believe in pre-tribulation rapture that means the Lord will come with a loud shout and the second coming will take place after the revealing of the antichrist.

    I know confusion does not come from God, but I am confused.
     
  12. sunshine307

    sunshine307 New Member

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    Teraside, I agree with you that the rapture will take place before the Tribulation, that the church will be taken out before then. I do not believe, from scriptures that I have given you before, that we will go through the Tribulation. :love:
     
  13. Fellowservant

    Fellowservant New Member

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    Will the rapture take place at the second comming? :star: (Are there two second comings?) If it does, we are looking at a Post-trib rapture.
    Jesus said he would return after the tribulation of those days according to Matthew 24-29 to 30.
    .


    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    The above scripture says Christ will return after the tribulation to gather the elect with the sound of a trumpet, by angels..

    So the question is, are we changed at his comming, and do the dead rise first? If we say yes then the rapture is Post-Trib (Matthew 24-29 to 31)....if we say no then we have a contradiction of the word.. and we know the scriptures don't contradic themselves. I have a small study on this brother teraside... i might post it again sometime. But we have to be open minded and not bias to any of these interpretations. Also we must let the scriptures interpret the scriptures, or we end up with our own ideas... and not Gods word. Gods word must take presidence over our beliefs.
    God bless
     
    #13 Fellowservant, May 11, 2006
    Last edited: May 11, 2006
  14. sunshine307

    sunshine307 New Member

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    Absolutely brother.

    The saints are commanded to watch. They are not commanded to watch for the Tribulation, but for the blessed hope, which is the Rapture.

    It is written, WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS-1 Thes 4:18. If we were watching for the horrible Tribulation period, we would not be comforted. We would be terrified. This Scripture could not be fulfilled, if the saints were to go into the Tribulation period.

    It is written, AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; FOR YOUR REDEMPTION (or your being caught up) DRAWETH NIGH-Lk 21:28. In Luke chapter 21, events of the Tribulation are described. Verse 28 shows that when these events begin to happen, after Israel’s rebirth, then we are to know that the Rapture is about to happen. Note, it did not say, when they "have" happened, but when they "begin" to happen. They begin to happen as birth pangs of a woman about to have a child. Again, if a person was going to go through the Tribulation, the wording of this verse would be inaccurate.

    Ten times in the Revelation the word "wrath" is mentioned as pertaining to the Tribulation. It is written, WRATH OF THE LAMB-Rev 6:16; THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME-Rev 6:17; AND THY WRATH IS COME-Rev 11:18; THE SAME SHALL DRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 14:10; OF THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 14:19; IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 15:1; WRATH OF GOD-Rev 15:7; POUR OUT THE VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE EARTH-Rev 16:1; FIERCENESS OF HIS WRATH-Rev 16:19; FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD-Rev 19:15.
    Now, we read, FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US (the saints) TO WRATH-1 Thes 5:9. The verse concludes by saying, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. These verses are unmistakably clear. If a person belongs to Jesus, they will not see the wrath of God. Many times in the Scriptures the term, "the wrath of God," is applied to the Tribulation.
    It is written, EVEN JESUS, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME (which is the Tribulation)-1 Thes 1:10. What is the "wrath to come?" The Bible has just told us ten times about the wrath of God in the Tribulation. It is also written, THEREFORE BEING JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM-Ro 5:1,9. Further, it is written, AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM-Jn 3:36. The Scriptures are very clear. The Tribulation is a time of God’s wrath. The saints will be delivered from the wrath to come.

    http://www.amazingbible.org/Documen...11-SOUND BIBLICAL REASONS SHOWING THE RAPTURE
     
  15. Fellowservant

    Fellowservant New Member

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    Tribulation is not Gods wrath sister...we are told in the word we will have tribulation. God says we are not appointed to his wrath. God does not tell us we will not have tribulation, in fact it says otherwise.


    Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



    Actually they are told to watch for the signs of his comming as well (ie the abomination of desolation that Daniel spoke of. And to watch and pray that they will be worthy to escape all that is to happen, and stand before the son of man. They are also told to endure to the end. If they were to go through nothing, then why tell them to endure to the end...Mat 24:13


    Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.





    The above quote sister is out of context...it has nothing to do with tribulation.

    We must read the scriptures in their context...



    lets look at comfort one another with these words. Paul was saying here that some were worrying about their dead loved ones, and wanted them to have a hope of a resurrection. So he said dont worry... God will resurrect them when the time come's


    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



    Yes the return of Christ will be a grorious event, but not till it comes. And Paul says it will not come, till there is a falling away first, and the man of sin is revealed, as i already posted.
    God bless
     
  16. sunshine307

    sunshine307 New Member

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    Brother I'm not here to argue, and I'm not taking anything out of context. If you think what we are going through now is tribulation we're getting away very lightly.
     
    #16 sunshine307, May 13, 2006
    Last edited: May 13, 2006
  17. Chad

    Chad Administrator
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    Article from gotquestions.org

    Question “When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation?”

    Answer: The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation is one of the most controversial issues in the church today. The three primary views are Pretribulational (the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation), Midtribulational (the Rapture occurs at the mid-point of the Tribulation), and Posttribulational (the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation). A 4th view, commonly known as Pre-wrath, is a slight modification of the Midtribulational position.

    First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the Tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “week” (7 years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth week, the Tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

    The primary Scripture passage on the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The Rapture is God removing His people from the earth. A few verses later in 5:9 Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the Tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the Tribulation. It would seem inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth during the Tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

    Another crucial passage on the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10. There, Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things: (1) Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or (2) Christ will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept “from.” It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation, the purpose of the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the Pretribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.
     
  18. Fellowservant

    Fellowservant New Member

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    First.. not all things are to be interpreted literally, the book of revelation is full of non literally interpretations. Those beast from the book of revelation are not literal beast...


    I disagree with the above quote.. there is more support for a Post-Trib rapture right from the mouth of Christ himself, unless he shortens the days for the elects sake (and we have to find out where he will shorten those days), it will be a Post-Trib Rapture as Christ said in Matthew 24, or should i say resurrection.



    Matthew 24.. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



    The word Rapture is not even in the Bible, (but the word Caught Up is though, same meaning.. Revelation Chapter 12) According to the way Pre-Trib was first thought, the rapture is the resurrection .. Im not even a Post-Trib teacher, im Pre-Trib.. but not the way it has been taught all this time.

    And if it is Post-Trib, ill take the attitude of the three well known holy saints of God from the Old Testament... who said to a King, God is able to deliver us, but if he does not... we still will not bow to your Idol, and we know what happend after that. All the articles in the world from the internet wont change what Christ said in Matthew 24.. 29 to 31 unless he shortens those days. Sorry we dont agree here brother.. but i have to go by the words of Christ, and seek a better undertanding of this.

    God bless
     
  19. Fellowservant

    Fellowservant New Member

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    Im not here to argue either... whos argueing? im here to help and teach as much as possible, as God leads. As far as not haveing much tribulation sister we in the western world are not haveing much, but go to the third world countrys and preach the gospel, and you will have a change of mind, if you go to the right place.

    God bless
     
  20. Chad

    Chad Administrator
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    I think those who have not signed up for the free newsletter / mailings from Gospel for Asia (GFA), please do so. You will read about the 3rd world countries that are facing their consequences (if I may say it that way bluntly). America is not left out (earthquakes, hurricanes, 9/11, droughts, floods, etc). America is simply put, spoiled but we'll know eventually the wrath of GOD.

    Remember, whoever is going through tribulation now or not yet, the entire world will pass away

    Matthew 24:34
    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Mark 13:30
    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Luke 21:32
    "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Let's remember this one thing before we try to figure out the tribulation / rapture / etc...

    GOD WANTS ALL TO ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AND --NOT PERISH!--

    That is the main focus today isn't it? Yes, indeed. Scripture says so. Its the main focus of the Holy Bible after all.

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Let's reach out to the lost instead of trying to deciper things that *ultimately* only the Father in Heaven knows of...the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. When He returns, do we want to be caught in sin or yet, in quarrels about certain topics as this?

    Note: forgive me if I missed out on some points. I'm at a cafe now multi-tasking like a crazy man :D

    God bless.
     

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