Was satan an angel?

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Jonah2005bt, Apr 8, 2009.

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  1. Jonah2005bt

    Jonah2005bt New Member

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    Was satan an angel who was cast out of Heaven?

    And, if so is there a scripture to help back that up?
     
  2. Hekuran

    Hekuran Member

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    The passage that this teaching comes from is Isaiah 14:12. Older English translations use "lucifer" while modern translations prefer "Morning Star". These are not contradictory, as lucifer is the Latin name for Venus, the morning star.

    Isaiah's immediate context is a prophecy against the King of Babylon, but there is a long tradition that says it also speaks beyond its original context to refer to Satan.
     
  3. Jonah2005bt

    Jonah2005bt New Member

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    Thank you Hekuran, I looked up Isaiah 14:12 & cross referenced it, I came up with Ezekiel 28:13-17.

    Does Ezekiel 28:13-19 speek of satan?

    It states that GOD said that HE anointed him Guardian Angel, untill he sinned.


    Ezekiel 28:13-19
    13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; your clothing was bejeweled with every precious stone--ruby, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald--all in beautiful settings of finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created.
    14 I appointed you to be the anointed Guardian Angel. You had access to the holy mountain of God. You walked among the stones of fire.
    15 ``You were perfect in all you did from the day you were created until that time when wrong was found in you.
    16 Your great wealth filled you with internal turmoil and you sinned. Therefore, I cast you out of the mountain of God like a common sinner. I destroyed you, O Guardian Angel, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. Therefore I have cast you down to the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze of kings.
    18. You defiled your holiness with lust for gain; therefore I brought forth fire from your own actions and let it burn you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all those watching you.
    19. All who know you are appalled at your fate; you are an example of horror; you are destroyed forever.''
     
    #3 Jonah2005bt, Apr 8, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  4. Rene

    Rene New Member

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    I think you can also take a look at

    Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version)

    7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
     
  5. Hekuran

    Hekuran Member

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    The Ezekiel passage is very similar to the Isaiah one, in that it is a prophecy against a foreign ruler - the King of Tyre in the case of Ezekiel.

    It may be that the prophecy has a dual purpose, but I am quite a long way from being convinced of that.

    The only firm conclusion I would draw from this is that the Bible is not too concerned to teach us about Satan's origins – its not something that should preoccupy us. You can easily find elaborate accounts of Satan's fall, but to my mind they rest on flimsy biblical evidence.
     
  6. Jonah2005bt

    Jonah2005bt New Member

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    So are you saying that the sripture in Ezekiel 28:13-19, is speeking a bout a wicked King & not satan? Or,

    did the wicked King have the spirit of satan in him?

    And that's why it seemed like it was discribing satan?
     
  7. johnpaul

    johnpaul New Member

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    I agree in part with Hekuran, that Ezekiel 28:13-19 has a dual purpose for these passages. However, not being a Biblical scholar, I'm not sure.
     
  8. Jonah2005bt

    Jonah2005bt New Member

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    And if the scripture is speeking about a wicked King, then why does it say in the scripture;

    " You were in Eden, the garden of GOD,

    I appointed you to be the anointed Guardian Angel.

    You had access to the holy mountain of God.

    You were PERFECT in all you did from the day you were created until that time when wrong was found in you.

    Your great wealth filled you with internal turmoil and you sinned.

    Therefore, I cast you out of the mountain of God like a common sinner."


    Does this not discribe a fallen angel, satan himself?



    Thank you for your time & effort. Your Sister in Christ Jesus, *genesis
     
    #8 Jonah2005bt, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  9. Hekuran

    Hekuran Member

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    It may be describing Satan, but it also makes sense as an exaggerated way of describing the heights the King of Tyre reached before outlining the judgement ahead. The Bible uses it quite often. Think of trees clapping their hands or camel passing through eyes of needles and so on.

    The Old Testament passages just are not clear enough for me to feel comfortable hanging a doctrine on them - that's my gut feeling and not backed up by a great deal of research or expertise, so feel free to disagree...

    A more clear text is 2 Peter 2:4 mentioning that angels were punished for sins.

    I hope this is helpful.
     
  10. Jonah2005bt

    Jonah2005bt New Member

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    It's not that I disagree. I've always been told that satan is a fallen angel. But a certain someone recently said that know where in the Bilble does it state that satan was once, one of GOD'S Angels.

    But I was always told he was a angel, until he became jealous of GOD & wanted to rule. Thus became rebelous against GOD & hates all those who wants to worship GOD, so GOD cast him out of heaven down to earth.

    Jesus even said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." {Luke 10:18}

    Revelation 9:11
    11. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

    Dictionary; Apollyon
    (pŏl´yn) [Gr.,=Destroyer], in the Book of Revelation, name of the angel of the bottomless pit. See Satan; hell.


    Isaiah 14:12
    12. "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
     
    #10 Jonah2005bt, Apr 11, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2009
  11. Sundowner

    Sundowner New Member

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    In the Ezekiel highlight you didn't mention walking on the stones of fire. A reference of spiritual meaning as the others you highlighted.

    I cheat, I read Jubilees and 1Enoch both confirm Satan as a Protector or warrior or Guardian Angel of the same degree of Micheal and others mentioned in scripture. Non-Biblical so no quotes.

    Depends on ones reading of Job if the Satan mentioned there is the same in Ezekiel and Isaiah along with the other passages you mentioned, if so then we see him at the very Council of God not yet banned completely. Some say this satan is not the Satan but a position of a lower angel just doing his job of accusing keeping God honest, I guess.

    A lot of confirming scripture has already been mentioned is why I'm not re-quoting it. But if someone decides not to agree Satan was an angel I wonder what is left other than a human. Is that even plausible to think with him having such spiritual power and strength as he is claimed to have.

    One note 2Peter 2:4 is talking of the fallen angels not Satan.

    I'll be glad to go deeper if you like next weekend, sorry, bit rushed on time right now.
     
  12. aquiliasorvola

    aquiliasorvola New Member

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    I heard this sermon over thirty years ago and haven't been able to find a flaw in the logic. Scripture defines scripture, the Satan was a fallen angle story just takes too much conjecture for me.

    Google:

    Lucifer- The Shining One~ Bill Britton

    "Not only that, but the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "The devil sinneth FROM THE BEGINNING." (I John 3:8)"

    "No --- Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is the perfect man, and we wait with great anticipation for Him to arise in our hearts and, shining out of us, to envelope us in Himself.

    How great the tragedy, then, that we see in these words: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." Adam, walking in perfection, reflecting the glory of God, the express image of the Father, fell from that place in the heavenlies and because of the sin of PRIDE, the Day Star no longer shone from within. Adam could no longer be called the "shining one" for the light-body had departed from him, and he knew "that he was naked." (Gen. 3:7)"
     
  13. Thiscrosshurts

    Thiscrosshurts Active Member

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    I find a few problems with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
    Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.


    Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.
    In revelation there is war in heaven.
    So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?


    Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
    This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.


    Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?


    Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.


    Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
    This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.


    Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


    Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.


    Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
    It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
    It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.


    The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.
    There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves, they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
    The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.

    Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning.

    There was only one man in that garden so that is most likely our morning star.
     
  14. bgsda

    bgsda New Member

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    I believe I can clarify this for you thiscross. Lucifer was the name given when God created him. A perfect angel whoneven covered God. When Lucifer fell by pride and sinned then he became Satan( which only means adversary). So yes Lucifer and Satan are the same. The devil name is still Lucifer.

    How many people named Lucifer have u ever met? Till this date, im 34yrs old and never met someone named Lucifer. I believe everyone knows who that is. God bless habe a good day.

    Oh important thing is that Lucifer and his fallen angels are here still reckon havoc in this world. Just turn on the news. So we have to always put on the armor of God Eph:6. The whole armor DAILY. Not just once while being invited to church, while having a hangover, and the preacher forces u to go to the front and you supposedly are saved. It a daily battle with thoughts, sin, etc. Stay stromg and faithful everyone. God bless
     
  15. Thiscrosshurts

    Thiscrosshurts Active Member

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    Did you actually read my post?
    Please be so kind as to provide scriptural evidence to support your position as I did.
    If you intend to quote Isaiah or Ezekiel I recommend actually reading my post first.

    According to Jesus he was never an angel:
    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
  16. alisonangel

    alisonangel New Member

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    Lucifer is not and has never been an angel.

    Lucifer is the King of Babylon.

    Satan in the Hebrew means Adversary and reading Bible verses with satan you can apply the word adversary to it and see that it is not a fallen angel!

    Let's look at some examples?

    Satan is first mentioned in the OT...

    1 Chronicles 21:1:And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
    2 Samuel 24:1:And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

    They are parallel accounts and God well God was the adversary!

    1 Timothy 1:20:Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Why would satan,a fallen angel teach someone not to ''blaspheme''?

    Numbers 22:22:And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants were with him.

    In that verse an angel is satan,adversary meaning satan!

    7854 satan saw-tawn' from 7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand.

    The above is the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance meaning for satan and adversary!

    Satan in Job was an adversary the things that happened to Job were done by God!

    Job 19:21:Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

    If you believe that satan is a supernatural fallen angel then that is idolatry...

    Exodus 20:3:Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    God makes it clear there is no one else!

    Isaiah 45:5:I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    Isaiah 45:6:That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
    Isaiah 45:7:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
     
  17. alisonangel

    alisonangel New Member

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    Ezekiel 28 has nothing to do with a fallen angel.

    That is against the Prince of Tyrus...

    Ezekiel 28:2:Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
     
  18. alisonangel

    alisonangel New Member

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    Symbolic.

    The same dragon in verse 9 is in an earlier verse...

    Revelations 12:3:And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Revelations 12:4:And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    Revelations 12:7:And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Revelations 12:9:And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    If the dragon is a literal satan then the woman must be literal and I suggest you look at how she is described...also in verse 1 it states ''And there appeared a great wonder in heaven''
    In other words - a vision!
     
  19. alisonangel

    alisonangel New Member

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    Lucifer is the King of Babylon.

    Isaiah 14:4:That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

    Lucifer is not a fallen angel...
     
  20. Puddleglum

    Puddleglum New Member

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    I thought an Angel was just a messenger. and that there is black or dark Angels as opposed to white or of the light, as of the light their is no darkness or shadows in them opposed to the shadows where there is a lack of truth.
    And it is in the shadows or in the darkness, that the misleading is sprung from.
    So that Satan is not advertently evil as some may think as a killer or such, but he deceives one in to doing his biding against the true light, so old mate Satan who works in us from the stain of original Sin, and that being a natural or very powerful thing of the flesh and worldly state. but the Light is of the Spirit and that is called supernatural and it is in this we are or should be guided first and foremost, but old mate keeps battling against the light as he has his own ways and they don't seam bad to him at all but he is a sensual wimp lacking any true virtue. but he is a master of leading astray by any conceivable method. and he comes across as the good person and even comes to help you out and even gives you insurances, hell he will even give you the fine print. and all you have to do is swallow it.
    But what about your soul and others.
    Satan and his messengers only chain you up and rob us of salvation, thus we are only cattle to be herded then and nothing more.
    Holy Moses came so as to lead the people of God free From slavery of this blindness.
    Old mate Satan is working in the Christians today just as he was with the tribe of Israel and Judah and he had his way with them as true as he will with poor weak mislead sensual types of Christians.