The dreaded "works" doctrine.

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Both of those are true. However, is there another way to understand them?
If Christ paid the penalty for sin, death, why do Christians die? Why do Christian's pay the penalty also, if it s already been paid by Christ? That doesn't make sense to me.

Hello @Butch5,

Why do Christians have to die? Because mortality has to put on immortality, and that can only occur at the resurrection of the dead? I confess that I have not considered this before.

I have to go off line now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

In the passage Paul states plainly that those who continue is good deeds are seeking eternal life. That indicates clearly that doing good deeds is a part of obtaining eternal life. He contrasts this with those who don't continue in good deeds who are storing up wrath against themselves. This tells us that in the judgment those good deeds play a role in the outcome of that judgment.

Hello again, @BUTCH 5,

No, that relates to those who have not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son.

Have to go now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Why do Christians have to die? Because mortality has to put on immortality, and that can only occur at the resurrection of the dead? I confess that I have not considered this before.

I have to go off line now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

This is one major reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. It contradicts what we find in reality. Christian's die. If that is the penalty for sin they've paid it. If Christ also paid it, it's paid twice. Since Christ died before sinners today, and if He paid that penalty, one has to ask, why do Chrsitians die?

And to throw another wrench in the works, if Christ paid the penalty fir sin and we find that Scripture says that Christ took away the sin of the world, aren't everyone's sins paid for?

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn. 1:29 ESV)


The concept of Penal Atonement is that man has a sin debt that he must pay to God. It holds that man is unable to do so, so Christ paid it for him.

Scripture is replete with passages that speak of God forgiving sins. If Christ paid for man's sins then those sins have not been forgiven, they've been paid for. This is another reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. A debt can't be both forgiven and paid for. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Butch5]

Hello again, @BUTCH 5,

No, that relates to those who have not heard the gospel of God concerning His Son.

Have to go now.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

He's writing to believers at Rome. He says? you oh man who judge another. Then he says that God will judge everyone according to his works. I'm not sure how that only pertains to those who see evidence of creation.

If we continue reading the book we find that there was judgment among the Jews and the Gentiles. We also know that from historical records. The, you oh man, that Paul refers to is the Jewish believer.

 

[B-A-C]

This is one major reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. It contradicts what we find in reality. Christian's die. If that is the penalty for sin they've paid it. If Christ also paid it, it's paid twice. Since Christ died before sinners today, and if He paid that penalty, one has to ask, why do Chrsitians die?

And to throw another wrench in the works, if Christ paid the penalty fir sin and we find that Scripture says that Christ took away the sin of the world, aren't everyone's sins paid for?

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn. 1:29 ESV)


The concept of Penal Atonement is that man has a sin debt that he must pay to God. It holds that man is unable to do so, so Christ paid it for him.

Scripture is replete with passages that speak of God forgiving sins. If Christ paid for man's sins then those sins have not been forgiven, they've been paid for. This is another reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. A debt can't be both forgiven and paid for. The two are mutually exclusive.

I know you are addressing this to Chris (complete) and I can't speak for her (it seems there are some things we disagree on).
But I think we have to realize what the Bible means by life and death.

In a sense we are all "alive". Christians, non-Christians, unbelievers, etc.. we are "alive" in the sense that we can feel, touch, think, smell, taste, breathe, and our hearts are beating.
We are all physically alive.

But one day we will all physically die. No one is on the Earth that is hundreds or thousands of years old. The fact is, everyone dies.
OK. so then what happens?

I don't want to get into all the other pipelines here (purgatory, Abraham's Bosom, Paradise, Hell, soul sleep, etc...) whether any of that stuff applies or ever happens doesn't matter too much.
I'm talking about the bottom line. The final destination. It's either living with Jesus (again, I don't want to get hung up on Heaven, the New Jerusalem, the New heavens and New Earth, I'm talking about final destinations here)
Or the Lake of Fire. That's really it. There are no other choices.

But the Bible speaks of eternal life. This is a little confusing and misleading... Everyone has 'eternal life; in a sense.
The righteous, saved believers, Christians... have eternal life with Jesus/God is heaven/paradise.

The unbelieving, sinners, non-Christians.... have eternal 'death' (this is called the second death) in the Lake of Fire.
Both have a consciousness, both have an awareness, they can talk, think, and feel. But even the second death isn't annihilation. You are still alive in a sense (if you want to call that 'living').

... this doesn't directly answer your question - isn't everyone's sins paid for? I've started another thread about Universalism to answer this.
But hopefully it answers the question in the first line "why do Christians die?".

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

He's writing to believers at Rome. He says? you oh man who judge another. Then he says that God will judge everyone according to his works. I'm not sure how that only pertains to those who see evidence of creation.

If we continue reading the book we find that there was judgment among the Jews and the Gentiles. We also know that from historical records. The, you oh man, that Paul refers to is the Jewish believer.

Hello @Butch5,

You need to go back to Romans chapter one.

Hi Chris,

This is one major reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. It contradicts what we find in reality. Christian's die. If that is the penalty for sin they've paid it. If Christ also paid it, it's paid twice. Since Christ died before sinners today, and if He paid that penalty, one has to ask, why do Chrsitians die?

And to throw another wrench in the works, if Christ paid the penalty fir sin and we find that Scripture says that Christ took away the sin of the world, aren't everyone's sins paid for?

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn. 1:29 ESV)


The concept of Penal Atonement is that man has a sin debt that he must pay to God. It holds that man is unable to do so, so Christ paid it for him.

Scripture is replete with passages that speak of God forgiving sins. If Christ paid for man's sins then those sins have not been forgiven, they've been paid for. This is another reason I reject the concept of Penal Atonement. A debt can't be both forgiven and paid for. The two are mutually exclusive.

Hello @Butch5,

There appears to be two schools of thought in regard to this, one called 'Penal Atonement', and the other, 'Governmental Atonement'.

https://www.theopedia.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement

https://www.theopedia.com/governmental-theory-of-atonement

* I am reluctant to get into an argument on this, because I do not like taking man's words on anything to do with God's word, preferring to let the Word of God speak for itself. Though I am being hypocritical in saying this, because there are certain expositors that I do trust, and therefore do pay attention to, but I do try to adopt the Berean spirit, by receiving their words with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures to see whether what they say is so.

* The Lord Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. Yes? (1 John 3:8b) The entry of sin into the world and death by sin is a work of the devil: for it was he who beguiled Eve by his subtilty, and their minds were corrupted from the simplicity that they had before God when they were in a state of innocence (2 Corinthians 11:3).

* Your question is one which I need time to consider, and God willing I will do, and perhaps we can come back to it again, if you don't mind.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

I know you are addressing this to Chris (complete) and I can't speak for her (it seems there are some things we disagree on).
But I think we have to realize what the Bible means by life and death.

In a sense we are all "alive". Christians, non-Christians, unbelievers, etc.. we are "alive" in the sense that we can feel, touch, think, smell, taste, breathe, and our hearts are beating.
We are all physically alive.

But one day we will all physically die. No one is on the Earth that is hundreds or thousands of years old. The fact is, everyone dies.
OK. so then what happens?

I don't want to get into all the other pipelines here (purgatory, Abraham's Bosom, Paradise, Hell, soul sleep, etc...) whether any of that stuff applies or ever happens doesn't matter too much.
I'm talking about the bottom line. The final destination. It's either living with Jesus (again, I don't want to get hung up on Heaven, the New Jerusalem, the New heavens and New Earth, I'm talking about final destinations here)
Or the Lake of Fire. That's really it. There are no other choices.

But the Bible speaks of eternal life. This is a little confusing and misleading... Everyone has 'eternal life; in a sense.
The righteous, saved believers, Christians... have eternal life with Jesus/God is heaven/paradise.

The unbelieving, sinners, non-Christians.... have eternal 'death' (this is called the second death) in the Lake of Fire.
Both have a consciousness, both have an awareness, they can talk, think, and feel. But even the second death isn't annihilation. You are still alive in a sense (if you want to call that 'living').

... this doesn't directly answer your question - isn't everyone's sins paid for? I've started another thread about Universalism to answer this.
But hopefully it answers the question in the first line "why do Christians die?".

Hi B-A-C,

This is where we disagree. In the Scriptures, life refers to those who are physically alive, I'd submit there is no other definition for life, and death of those who are dead. I think many get off base with this idea of an immortal soul. This idea that everyone has eternal life. We find that Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality and that God gives life to all things. That means no one else has eternal life. Logically that would mean that for anyone to live for eternity they must get that life from the Father. So, my question would be, where in Scripture do we ever see eternal life promised to the wicked? Jesus said that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So according to Jesus there are two options eternal life and perishing. The believer is promised eternal life. The unbeliever isn't and the only option left to him is to perish.

I would also ask, if everyone has eternal life, what reason would there be for God to promise eternal life to the believer, if he already has it?

Based on Paul's statement that the Father alone has immortality how do you make a case that the unbeliever also has immortality or eternal life?

I would submit that this idea of an immorral soul is so widespread, not just among Christian's, but mankind in general, that it is just an accepted belief and isn't challenge. However, when we challenge it and hold it up to the Scriptures we don't find any evidence for it. One question we should ask is, since the Jews had God's word from the beginning, why didnt they believe in this immortal soul doctrine? If it's really what the Scriptures teach we should expect to see them holding it, yet we don't. We don't see it among the Jews until they were led away to Babylon. In Jesus' day neither the seduccees nor the Pharisees held to an immortal soul doctrine.

The Greeks, however, did believe in the idea of an immortal soul. This was believed before Christ came on the scene. So, the Gospel was sent out into a world that believed in an immortal soul. From this it's not hard to see how this idea could, over time, work it's way into Christianity. As more and more Gentiles became believers and got farther and farther away from the time of the apostles people who held this idea of an immortal soul would filter the Scriotures through this kind if thinking.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

He's writing to believers at Rome. He says? you oh man who judge another. Then he says that God will judge everyone according to his works. I'm not sure how that only pertains to those who see evidence of creation.

If we continue reading the book we find that there was judgment among the Jews and the Gentiles. We also know that from historical records. The, you oh man, that Paul refers to is the Jewish believer.

Hi @Butch5,

I believe that you need to go back to Romans 1:18-20, in which man is found to be without excuse, and showing the terrible condition of the pagan world in Paul's day. Then Paul turns to the Jew and examines his condition in Romans 2:1. He introduces a form of argument in which he imagines a critic intervening in the argument who is given replies which are searching in the extreme. ' Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whomsoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things' . ... ' and thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?' (Romans 2:1-3)

The evidence of creation is before the eyes of all men regardless of race, but it is spoken of particularly in Romans one in regard to the pagan world, Israel had the advantage of the giving of the law and so on, but were guilty of the same sinful behaviour as that of their pagan counterparts, and because of their privileged position before God, had the greater responsibility.

However this whole chapter is dealing with God's judgement of mankind, both Jew and Gentile, those under law and those who have only the law of conscience as their guide, and how God will judge each one justly, taking into consideration their circumstances, their works and the secrets of men's hearts. Showing that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and all alike need to hear and believe the gospel of God concerning His Son, that they may be delivered from the wrath to come.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

You need to go back to Romans chapter one.

Hello @Butch5,

There appears to be two schools of thought in regard to this, one called 'Penal Atonement', and the other, 'Governmental Atonement'.

https://www.theopedia.com/penal-substitutionary-atonement

https://www.theopedia.com/governmental-theory-of-atonement

* I am reluctant to get into an argument on this, because I do not like taking man's words on anything to do with God's word, preferring to let the Word of God speak for itself. Though I am being hypocritical in saying this, because there are certain expositors that I do trust, and therefore do pay attention to, but I do try to adopt the Berean spirit, by receiving their words with all readiness of mind, but search the Scriptures to see whether what they say is so.

* The Lord Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. Yes? (1 John 3:8b) The entry of sin into the world and death by sin is a work of the devil: for it was he who beguiled Eve by his subtilty, and their minds were corrupted from the simplicity that they had before God when they were in a state of innocence (2 Corinthians 11:3).

* Your question is one which I need time to consider, and God willing I will do, and perhaps we can come back to it again, if you don't mind.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Being a Berean is good. We just have to remember that those in that day knew a lot more about those times than we do. Everything we read we filter through our beliefs.

I would give some food for though. The idea of Penal Atonement is a product of the Reformation. It's an idea from the 1500's. It came about by the Reformers tweaking the former doctrine called the Satifaction model. The Satisfaction model is an idea that came out of the mind of a Catholic theologian named Anselm of Canterbury. His thinking was along the lines of, man has committed sin against God. He said this sin is so great that man could not possible atone for it. The one way it could be atoned for is by someone who is perfect, thus Christ is the only one who could make that atonement. This was called the Satisfaction model. The idea is that Christ satisfied God's wrath against the sinner. The Reformers tweaked this and put it in a more forensic model. Christ paid man's sin debt to God.

However, as I said, this idea, the Satisfaction model, is a product of the 1100's. So, what did Christian's believe for the first 1000 years of Christian history? They believed in an idea called the Ransom model. This model says that Christ choose to give his life as a ransom for man. However, the payment wasn't to God, it was to Satan. It held that man had fallen under Satan's authority when Adam and Eve had sinned and eaten from The Tree of Knowledge. It holds that man would die alienated from God. However, in steps Jesus who offers Himself as a ransom to buy back man's freedom and reconcile, (atone) him back to God.

Sometimes people balk at this idea because they don't like the idea of God paying a ransom to Satan. However, this was the belief of the Christian faith for the first 1000 years. It is also the one concept that fits with all of Scripture. As I've pointed out the Penal Model doesn't fit with Scripture. In the Model we see the "debt" being paid twice and there is no forgiveness in that model, yet forgiveness is all through the Scriptures. The Satifaction model has the same problems. The Ransom model however, doesn't have those problems. In the ransom model Jesus can take away the sin of the world without the idea of Universalism coming into the equation. In this model even though man is reconciled to God, no longer under Satan's control, he still has his sins to deal with. This is where forgiveness comes in. So, in this model Jesus can die for sins and yet man can still receive forgiveness. It doesn't have the problems that the other two models have.

Here is a link to a teacher of early Christian history. This is what Christains believed for the first 1000 years of Christianity.

 

[Butch5]

Hi @Butch5,

I believe that you need to go back to Romans 1:18-20, in which man is found to be without excuse, and showing the terrible condition of the pagan world in Paul's day. Then Paul turns to the Jew and examines his condition in Romans 2:1. He introduces a form of argument in which he imagines a critic intervening in the argument who is given replies which are searching in the extreme. ' Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whomsoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things' . ... ' and thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?' (Romans 2:1-3)

The evidence of creation is before the eyes of all men regardless of race, but it is spoken of particularly in Romans one in regard to the pagan world, Israel had the advantage of the giving of the law and so on, but were guilty of the same sinful behaviour as that of their pagan counterparts, and because of their privileged position before God, had the greater responsibility.

However this whole chapter is dealing with God's judgement of mankind, both Jew and Gentile, those under law and those who have only the law of conscience as their guide, and how God will judge each one justly, taking into consideration their circumstances, their works and the secrets of men's hearts. Showing that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and all alike need to hear and believe the gospel of God concerning His Son, that they may be delivered from the wrath to come.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree! And in chapter 2 he says those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life, those who don't are storing up wrath against themselves

 

[B-A-C]

We find that Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality and that God gives life to all things. That means no one else has eternal life.

Or does that simply mean no one has been resurrected to eternal life yet?

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

 

[Butch5]

Or does that simply mean no one has been resurrected to eternal life yet?

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

When Paul wrote that Jesus had already been resurrected. Also, Paul said that God gives life to all things. He uses the present tense, gives.

 

[B-A-C]

When Paul wrote that Jesus had already been resurrected. Also, Paul said that God gives life to all things. He uses the present tense, gives.

LOL,
OK, let me rephrase that. No one besides Jesus.
We are living now in this present age. We have life now in this present age because of God.

 

[Butch5]

LOL,
OK, let me rephrase that. No one besides Jesus.
We are living now in this present age. We have life now in this present age because of God.

Yeah, but Paul said, the Father alone has immortality after Jesus resurrected. That means that not even Jesus has immortality. He too must be given life from the Father.

 

[B-A-C]

Yeah, but Paul said, the Father alone has immortality after Jesus resurrected. That means that not even Jesus has immortality. He too must be given life from the Father.

None of my Bibles specifically say "the Father" there in 1st Timothy 6. They simply say "God". I take it you don't believe Jesus is God?

 

[Butch5]

None of my Bibles specifically say "the Father" there in 1st Timothy 6. They simply say "God". I take it you don't believe Jesus is God?

If we read the entire passage Paul says that Jesus will show the one who only has Immortality, who no one has seen nor can see. People saw Jesus. No one has seen the Father.

 

[B-A-C]

1Tim 6:13; I direct you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
1Tim 6:14; that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Tim 6:15; which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Who do you think the Lord of Lords and Kings (who alone possesses eternal life) is here?

Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

 

[Butch5]

1Tim 6:13; I direct you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
1Tim 6:14; that you keep the commandment without fault or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Tim 6:15; which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Who do you think the Lord of Lords and Kings (who alone possesses eternal life) is here?

Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

In the passage it is Jesus. However, Paul makes a distinction in 1 Tim.

I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Here Paul says that the Father is the only Sovereign and the one who has eternal dominion.

We know that Jesus was given all authority after the cross, he told the apostles that all authority was given to Him. That would make Him the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He has all authority. However, Paul also tells us that there will come a time when Christ will give that authority back to the Father.

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Here Paul tells us that when Christ was given all authority it did not include the Father. Jesus never had authority over the Father. We also see that when all things are under Jesus' feet that He turns the Kingdom over to the Father. So, the Father is the ultimate authority. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. However, at present Jesus has all authority over everything except the Father. So, at the present time He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But Jesus doesn't reign forever the Father does. As Paul said in 1 Tim 6, the one who no one has seen has eternal dominion.

 

[complete]

When Paul wrote that Jesus had already been resurrected. Also, Paul said that God gives life to all things. He uses the present tense, gives.

Hello @Butch5,

I have enjoyed following through your discussion with B-A-C, however, please also consider what is said in John 5:25-27 regarding the Son having life in Himself:-

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.. The hour is coming, and now is,
.... when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
...... and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in Himself;
.. so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
.... And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also,
...... because He is the Son of man.'

Also one more in regard to the life we have 'in Him', please see Colossians 3:1-4:-

'If ye then be risen with Christ,
.. seek those things which are above,
.... where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above,
.. not on things on the earth.
.... For ye are dead,
...... and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
.. then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I have enjoyed following through your discussion with B-A-C, however, please also consider what is said in John 5:25-27 regarding the Son having life in Himself:-

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.. The hour is coming, and now is,
.... when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
...... and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in Himself;
.. so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
.... And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also,
...... because He is the Son of man.'

Also one more in regard to the life we have 'in Him', please see Colossians 3:1-4:-

'If ye then be risen with Christ,
.. seek those things which are above,
.... where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above,
.. not on things on the earth.
.... For ye are dead,
...... and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
.. then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.