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omnipotence vs predestination

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Loyal
The Israelites are the Children of Israel -- part of the 12 tribes of Israel / Jacob. The tribe of Judah is the line that Jesus Christ was born from. the Jews.

Some people are born Jews and some are Jewish in their religious beliefs. There are those who are born Jewish but do not follow Judaism. And there are those who are Gentiles, but choose to follow Jewish beliefs.

Messianic Jews are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Other Jews have Not. They are still waiting for their promised Messiah.

In the Gospels -- it was the Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. They would be Christian brethren as would any other born-again believer.
 
Active
The Israelites are the Children of Israel -- part of the 12 tribes of Israel / Jacob. The tribe of Judah is the line that Jesus Christ was born from. the Jews.

Some people are born Jews and some are Jewish in their religious beliefs. There are those who are born Jewish but do not follow Judaism. And there are those who are Gentiles, but choose to follow Jewish beliefs.

Messianic Jews are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. Other Jews have Not. They are still waiting for their promised Messiah.

In the Gospels -- it was the Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. They would be Christian brethren as would any other born-again believer.
Except that Paul states plainly who he is talking about. He says it's his brethren according to the flesh who are Israelites.
 
Loyal
Genesis Means book of beginnings. IF there was another world before this one -- then it would have been named something different.
Exactly. Nothing was created before ... well.. ahem.. before "creation". Not us, not the heavens and the earth, not angels. Nothing but God.
I know this goes against Mormon teachings, but...

Gen 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
 
Loyal
Why would you bring up Mormon teachings. Or is that where one of the posters in particular gets his ideas From?
 
Loyal
Why would you bring up Mormon teachings. Or is that where one of the posters in particular gets his ideas From?
Mormon teaching says everyone existed before the physical creation of the universe, stars and planets.
They say we existed as "spirit children". In fact most of them believe our lives as spirit children determine whether we are "born again".

Mormonism says: “We pre-existed as spirit children

Mormon cosmology - Wikipedia

Of course none of this is Biblical, but since when does that change anything?
 
Loyal
ohh -- so That's where that particular poster gets his ideas.

Your last sentence -- I'm chuckling.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@B-A-C

Exactly. Nothing was created before ... well.. ahem.. before "creation". Not us, not the heavens and the earth, not angels. Nothing but God.
I know this goes against Mormon teachings, but...

Gen 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
Mormon teaching says everyone existed before the physical creation of the universe, stars and planets.
They say we existed as "spirit children". In fact most of them believe our lives as spirit children determine whether we are "born again".

Mormonism says: “We pre-existed as spirit children

Mormon cosmology - Wikipedia

Of course none of this is Biblical, but since when does that change anything?

thank you B-A-C ....><>
--------------------------------------------
a quote from one of those pages your provided....

Orson Pratt (Original ‘Quorum of the Twelve’ member): “before men and women are born on earth as babies, their spirits are adult size in heaven. When they are born, their Spirits are compressed, which causes a loss in memory” [Journal of Discourses vol.16, 333-334.]
-----------------------------------------------------
One has to un-compress? Wonder how that explains Alzheimers?
I suppose that these days if that was commonly accepted 'fact', everybody would use it as an excuse for forgetfulness, if they remembered?

----------------------------------------

STAY AWAY FROM MORMONISM.
 
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Loyal
If you are not able to see this first world age then, when did Satan’s rebellion take place. What year from Genesis 1:1 did Satan deceive one third of Gods children and then rebelled against God. What year was it when all the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan Came amongst them. Approximately what year was that
Satan was originally a "good angel". His rebellion was after he was in the garden.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:17; "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Ezek 28:18; "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
Ezek 28:19; "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

The rebellion was after creation (the earth and universe) was created, and after the garden of Eden existed.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

the idea of Lucifer [from the passage in Isaiah] being satan or the devil, didn't come into popular thought for some time after the New Testament was written.
I think from memory it didn't actually get moving until around the 1600's (??)

I realize that we are 'taught' that Lucifer is satan, but in all honesty, we do need to understand more of where this thought came from and when. As far as i am aware, the Jewish folk of the Old Testament times, nor the folk from the New, did not say or believe such things.

I think it was Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, who wrote 'lucifer' being a Latin word and from what i understand also included a side or foot note to point out he knew it was not really 'correct'. I personally do not think he did this as part of some conspiracy as some might suggest but he did put it there. What happened from there is that translators kept the Latin and used it rather than replace it with a more fitting English word. We do need to remember that the English language or tongue developed and the translations with it, but it developed out of several 'European' languages in use at the time of it's beginnings and a lot of it went through a Latin filter. {interesting language to study and learn from, actually]

So, i would be cautious about referring to Lucifer as Satan and the same could be said of the king of Tyre.
Both are fairly loose fitting 'teachings' based on more of a popular idea than Scripture.

i am very happy to shown that this [what i am saying] is wrong as i much prefer that to continuing on with something that is not sound, nor Scriptural.


Bless you all ....><>
 
Loyal
So, i would be cautious about referring to Lucifer as Satan and the same could be said of the king of Tyre.
Both are fairly loose fitting 'teachings' based on more of a popular idea than Scripture.
Lucifer may not be Satan, but this isn't a new idea. It's been around since 2nd century literature.

Lucifer - Wikipedia

As for the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. We can stick to the facts here. He is call the cherub that was in the garden of Eden.
At the very least you can't argue with that.

So then what other angel would you suggest here?
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

Lucifer may not be Satan, but this isn't a new idea. It's been around since 2nd century literature.
yes, my point being that it was not something that was in usage as 'fact' before then. Thank you for the feedback.


As for the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. We can stick to the facts here. He is call the cherub that was in the garden of Eden.
At the very least you can't argue with that.

So then what other angel would you suggest here?
I certainly am not arguing but i can use that term in a positive context.
So, is a cherub and angel?
And, if Satan is that cherub, whereabouts in the garden was the post he held?

As i wrote, i am open to correction if Scriptural etc. like us all, no doubt.


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
So, is a cherub and angel?
And, if Satan is that cherub, whereabouts in the garden was the post he held?
cherub are what is on top of the ark of the covenant. What do you think cherub are? We know they have wings. Almost the entire chapter of Ezekiel 10 is a description
of these beings.

As far as his post. Twice it mentions he is the "covering" cherub. I suggest the entire garden was under his "care".

Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

mêysâk
may-sawk'
From H5526; a portico (as covered): - covert.

The word cover here means portico. Like a porch or patio covering.
 
Loyal
The very beginning was millions of years before the book of Genesis was scribed
Where is the scripture that says this? Most of Genesis was written by Moses. Moses wasn't even alive until after the flood.
Moses was generations after Abraham. So does that mean Abraham didn't exist?
Just because a book wasn't written at the same time sometime happened doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Creation happened. Moses didn't see it... but it happened.

Almost every book in the Bible describes something that happened before the book was written.
Every Gospel is the new testament was written after Jesus was ascended back to heaven. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
 
Loyal
God inspired Scripture to be written by men that He choose and who the Holy Spirit inspired to write it. 2 timothy 3:16

The Only way that Moses knew what to write About the creation is what the Holy Spirit Told him to write. And That is true of Every book we have in our Bible.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
cherub are what is on top of the ark of the covenant. What do you think cherub are? We know they have wings. Almost the entire chapter of Ezekiel 10 is a description
of these beings.

As far as his post. Twice it mentions he is the "covering" cherub. I suggest the entire garden was under his "care".

Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

mêysâk
may-sawk'
From H5526; a portico (as covered): - covert.

The word cover here means portico. Like a porch or patio covering.
@B-A-C
Greetings,

one could start a whole new discussion on cherub(s) or cherubim.

Regarding the cherubim in the Genesis account, the 'post' was to keep the way to The Tree Of Life. Nothing actually mentioned about the Garden, as such. One thing we do know is that there is very little to base very little on.
A study of the Cherubim, while interesting, doesn't leave one all that satisfied [especially if one goes looking for something with a notion in mind or some pre-selected sort of understanding or bias]
It would appear that the similarities between the Cherubim in all the accounts in Scripture end with the fact that they are called Cherubim. excepy this account of Cherub [singular] There is not a lot of other info that identifies them [the Cherubim in the accounts we find in Scripture] besides always being as if something between what is holy and all else, but even that is stretching it a bit.

regarding, You were on the holy mountain of God - note that it does not say or infer Heaven or Eden.
regarding, You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. - this 'walking' is totally in contrast to and against the accounts of the Cherubim in other places , where they are either fixed man-made objects or embroidery [on the Curtains] [or Veils] which are standing.
regarding, By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. - to do this due service in relation to the 'claims' of this particular 'cherub' being satan, one would really have to look at what all that means and be able to fit it with the rest of Scripture. There appears zero reference to Eden or angels or satan in that verse. One has to almost physically, if possible, put such reference into it.

However, i am not arguing with you about it... only pointing out some rather complicated observations that do not coincide with the modern tradition of man, regarding the King of Tyre being satan or the cherub being somehow an angel cast out of Eden.
I am open to further discussion and study on these points as i am not a know-it-all.... i only know what i think i know beside the fact that Jesus is Lord and He died for sinners like me!


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
Regarding the cherubim in the Genesis account, the 'post' was to keep the way to The Tree Of Life. Nothing actually mentioned about the Garden, as such. One thing we do know is that there is very little to base very little on.
Pretty sure this was a different angel. There is actually a lot to base this on.
Gen 3:24; So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

We aren't told who the serpent is in Genesis... but we are in Revelation.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

There is only one person Jesus mentioned being cast out of heaven.

Ezek 28:8; 'They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are slain In the heart of the seas.

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

There is only one angel (cherub) that is told he will cast into the pit. For me... far too many coincedences. Over a dozen scriptures tie them together.

How many angels are there? I suppose no one knows for sure but...

Rev 5:11; Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
 
Loyal
Predestination is “according” to God's purpose, and grace “based” on God's foreknowledge. (2 Tim 1:9)(1 Peter 1:2)


The Lord God does not “arbitrarily” choose people at random to be saved based on nothing, but always “according” to his own “purpose”, and grace “based” on his foreknowledge which he always knew from the beginning..
 
Loyal
Nothing can happen outside of God's sovereignty, and all things are restricted to happen within his sovereignty boundaries that he has set up. (Acts 17:26)
 
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