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If there was no sin in Heaven...

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by trulyblezzed, Oct 22, 2007.

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  1. trulyblezzed

    trulyblezzed New Member

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    If there was no sin in heaven, how did the devil get kicked out of heaven for being prideful if pride is a sin? :confused:

    Tough question!
     
  2. Chad

    Chad Administrator
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    This article from gotquestions.org sums it up nicely and short to the point.

    ***

    The Bible describes Heaven in great detail in Revelation chapters 21-22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. There will be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4). The sinful are not in Heaven, but the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter Heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of Heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). So, the answer is no, there will be no sin in Heaven.

    What does that mean for us? If there is no possibility of sin, does that means we will no longer have a free will in Heaven? It seems that in Heaven, or ability to choose will be similar to that of the angels. The angels had a one-time choice to obey God or follow Satan. There is no possibility of further angels sinning and joining Satan in his rebellion. The holy angels are "elect angels" (1 Timothy 5:21). Similar, the elect in Heaven will be "sealed" in their decision to forsake sin and trust in Christ. We will not even have the choice to sin. At the same time, having been delivered from sin and evil, and viewing the wonderful glories of Heaven, we would not choose sin even if we had the choice.

    ***

    Revelation 21:4

    4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Revelation 21:27

    27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Revelation 22:15

    15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
     
  3. trulyblezzed

    trulyblezzed New Member

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    Thanks for that reference Chad, but I guess my question is how did the enemy get kicked out then if there was no sin? Was heaven different back then than it is now?

    This was taken from gotquestions.org

    Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

    Answer: Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the king of Babylon and the King of Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power that was behind those kings - Satan. In regards to when Satan fell, these passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

    Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations. Satan was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially "kick God off His throne" and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from Heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say that God cast Satan out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).
     
  4. Chad

    Chad Administrator
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    I believe the Heaven of the past that Satan was in was one where you had the choice to obey or disobey GOD, similar in how we have a choice on earth. The new heaven mentioned in Revelation, this is where we've "endured to the end" and by GOD's grace for our damage already done (sin) we are now in Heaven (new Heaven) with Jesus forever. The old will then be passed away and the new will be without sin nor sorrow.

    I will study this further sister. I'm sure someon else here can answer more thoroughly than myself. I do not have the absolute answer aside the summary I just gave.
     
  5. Pedronewt

    Pedronewt New Member

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    possibility vs. a reality

    This line made me think of another question pertaining to our future. Do we lose our ability to choose once we go to the new heaven?


    As to the original question, "If there was no sin in heaven, how did the devil get kicked out of heaven for being prideful if pride is a sin?"

    The Bible doesn't seem to indicate the length of time between when He created the angles and when sin went from being an abstract possibility to being a reality. It does seem to indicate that there was nobody making wrong choices until Lucifer acted on his pride and became Satan and there by was "kick out" of heaven.

    my humble thoughts,
    pedro
     
  6. lettheredeemed

    lettheredeemed New Member

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    Check out Ezekial 28 you may find what you are looking for there.
     
  7. zero

    zero New Member

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    Satan kicked out of heaven

    Revelations 12 gives the exact time when Satan is cast out of heaven:

    Verse 7:And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Verse 8: And prevailed not; niether was thier place found anymore in Heaven.

    verse 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and satan, which decieveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Verse 10:And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Verse 12: Therefore, rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitors of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you having great wrath, be cause he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Verse 13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    Verse 14: And to the woman were given 2 wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent.

    Also verse 6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    This 1,260 days and the time and times and half a time of verse 6 and 14 are referring to the time of the grat tribulation that happens right at the end of the world, right before Jesus comes back. So, what we see happening here is that the devil is not cast out of heaven until the start of the great tribulation, at which time he posseses the antichrist and tries to get the whole world to worship him in the person of the antichrist.

    As far as answering the original question that this thread started with: If there is no sin in heaven, how come satan hiumself is in heaven? ; To understand these things we sometimes have to raise ourselves out of the 3 dimensional physical world in which we are living in and try to understand from a 5th dimensional spiritual viewpoint. For example, to say that there is a sinner (satan) in heaven is not the same as saying there is sin in heaven. God all powerfull, all-knowing all-everything and he is in charge of heaven and satan can't do anything without God's permission. The bible even tells us that God created the wicked for the day of evil. Eventually, once God's plan is accomplished, all the wicked, including satan and his angels will be cast into the lake of fire and the only ones in heaven will be god, Jesus, the holy spirit and all his good angels and spirits as well as all of God's saved children.
     
  8. SpiritLedEd

    SpiritLedEd New Member

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    If Satan wasn't to be cast out of heaven until the beginning of the tribulation period, how is it that Jesus predicted the Tribulation in Matthew 24 and pretty close to that (since His public ministry lasted only two years) said to His disciples, "I saw Satan cast out of heaven like lightening." (Lk 10:18a)?

    It appears that Satan was given the heave-ho out of heaven way in advance of the Tribulation.

    SLE
     
    #8 SpiritLedEd, Oct 25, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  9. trulyblezzed

    trulyblezzed New Member

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    I agree SLE. The bible tells us that Satan was casted out of heaven before the fall of Adam & Eve (how did they fall if Satan wasn't down here on earth?).

    Thank you for everyone's imput here. I'm going with Chad's theory of the old heaven having free will. That's the only way Satan would have a choice to obey or disobey.

     
  10. Mouse

    Mouse New Member

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    A further question, did satan create sin?
     
  11. Pedronewt

    Pedronewt New Member

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    I don't believe Satan created sin. He only took a loathesome possiblity and made it a reality.

    I believe God created angels and men for relationship. In order to have a true agape relationship, God gave angels and men the freedom to choose to be in that relationship with Him. The saddest thing of all is that Satan once stood in the very presence of God and still rejected Him. Just goes to show there is no rationality for sin.
     
  12. trulyblezzed

    trulyblezzed New Member

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    I would need to research this further, but I don't think God would have created sin, so that only leaves one other option- the devil.
     
  13. Mouse

    Mouse New Member

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    John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

    What can you make of this verse where it says he is the father of lies and it states "from the beginning".
     
  14. SpiritLedEd

    SpiritLedEd New Member

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    Genesis 2 tells us that God forbade Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge ofGood and Evil. This shows that evil existed prior to their being created.

    Satan did not "create" sin since to create in the Genesis/Biblical sense is to make something out of nothing. Satan cannot make something out of nothing. The possibility of sin came to be when God gave at least some of His angels the power to make choices. Satan became the first sinner when he decided to oppose God.

    SLE
     
    #14 SpiritLedEd, Oct 26, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2007
  15. lettheredeemed

    lettheredeemed New Member

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    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

    God created evil but there will be no sin in heaven. If there was not evil how could He give Adam and Eve a choice?
     
    #15 lettheredeemed, Oct 27, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2007
  16. zero

    zero New Member

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    No, personally, I don't believe Satan created sin.. Sin came about because of Adam and Eve's sin and disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Sin had not entered into the world before the moment of their transgression.

    But, to get back to the point about exactly when satan was cast out of
    heaven, ( I don't want to take a long time arguing this point, but I would like to point out one more biblical reference here.) In Jobe 1:6-7 it says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence camest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." Now, no one knows when the book of Job was written, although most bible scholars believe it to be the oldest book in the world, older, even than the first five books of the bible,which were written by Moses. But, I'm sure we can rest assured that it was probably written sometime after the flood of Noah. Yet, we have a picture of Satan having access to heaven and coming before the throne of God. I think, in way, everybody is right. Satan, before his fall, was the top angel, the bearer of the light. BUT HE wasn't content to be only the bearer of the light, He wanted to be the light, so he rebelled against God and therefore He was cast out of his position as the light bearer. We could say he was fired from his job and sent packing. So, he wanders about like a homeless vagabond trying to condemn and hurt others, like he did to Job. He wants people to fear him and therefore give him some kind of obeisance or worship. The Apostle Peter says, "Satan walketh about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." So, he was cast out of his first place, his first estate in heaven, but it seems he still has access to heaven and is able to come before the throne of God to condemn and criticize God's children, which seems to be his main job now. But, I still believe He is not totally cast out of heaven, never to return or come before the throne of God again until the time of the very end, as described in revelations 12.
     
  17. B-A-C

    B-A-C Active Member

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    I have heard it explained this way.

    Satan was in the garden of Eden.
    Eze_28:13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.

    But he was cast out of heaven. ( Luke 10:18 )

    I have heard it said that a man might commit a crime somewhere. Perhaps he committed a murder in a house. But he received his sentence in the courtroom.
    Perhaps Satan didn't do his sin in heaven. Perhaps he was just sentenced there after the fact.

    We do know that he visits heaven on occasion. So maybe his membership was cancelled but he can still visit?
    Job 1:6; Job 2:1
     
  18. Thiscrosshurts

    Thiscrosshurts Active Member

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    Jesus said Satan was a liar from the begining so how can you say this scripture refers to Satan.
    If you read the context of Ezekiel you will find that he is talking to a man.

    John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
     
  19. B-A-C

    B-A-C Active Member

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    Most scholars consider Ezekiel 28:2-19 to b a parellelism. Now this is generally something you either believe or you don't.
    It is talking about someone called the King of Tyre here.
    But it is also likely talking about Satan here.

    At the very least there are very many similarities between the two.
    Eze 28:2 verse two it says he but a man, and he isn't a God.
    Eze 28:8 verse eight, he will be taken down to the pit. (Rev 20:2-3)
    Eze 28:8 eight also says he will die like those in the sea. (Rev 20:10)
    Eze 28:9 nine repeats that he is but a man not a God.
    Eze 28:13 thirteen says he was in the garden of Eden. (Gen 3:1-14)
    Eze 28:14 fourteen says he was a cherub, or angel.
    It's very unlikely that a human would be called a cherub.
    Most scholars put the writing of Ezekiel at somewhere about 595-570 BC. If this being was in the garden of Eden,
    this would make him a few thousand years old, easily the oldest human ever.
    Eze 28:15 fifteen says this being was created.
    Eze 28:16 sixteen says he was cast down from 'God's mountain'. (Luke 10:18)
    Eze 28:16 sixteen calls this beingn a cherub again.
    Eze 28:17 says he was cast to the ground (Luke 10:18)
    Eze 28:6 says his sin was trying to make himself like God. (Isa 14:13)
    Eze 28:9 says he called himself a God. (Isa 14:14)
    Eze 28:16 says he sinned and was filled with violence. (John 8:44)

    Another passage that is generally considered to be 'the sin of Satan'.
    Isa 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
    Isa 14:13 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
    Isa 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
    Isa 14:15 "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.
    Isa 14:16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
    Isa 14:17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
    Isa 14:18 "All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb.
    Isa 14:19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.
    Isa 14:20 "You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
     
    #19 B-A-C, Jan 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  20. Thiscrosshurts

    Thiscrosshurts Active Member

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    I believe Jesus knew what he was talking about,scholars think they know what they are talking about.
    I can't just toss out Jesus's words and go with the traditions of men.It is a shame though because it makes great story material and sells a lot of books.

    In the tradition of men I will offer just a few of the issues I find with the Lucifer to Satan connection.
    Lucifer is Latin and also translated morning star,day star,shining star,star of the morning and shining one.
    Lucifer had already fallen from heaven when Isaiah wrote this.

    Isaiah 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

    Revelation 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
    .

    So if he had already fallen from heaven how did he get back in to play his part in the war in heaven?

    This verse tells us that this being was brought down to the grave(Sheol) already.Satan is the prince of the power of the air at this present time.

    Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    Isaiah 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?


    Lucifer is like all the other dead kings of the earth.Satan is still at large.

    Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,

    This event already took place to a man and Satan who is not a man is still at large.


    Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

    Satan never had a people,this man had land and a people.


    Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
    It gets really tough to try to make this fit Satan.
    It seems to me it's about a man who is now in the grave.

    The term "along with the noise of your harps" in 14:11 is often used to connect this man to the anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and place Lucifer in the garden as the serpent.A man is equipped with the ability to make almost any sound though.

    There is a connection between the cherub and Lucifer in that they are both men who went down to their graves they are both made a spectacle of before kings.They both had a glorious beginning and were perfect but fell.
    The serpent was a beast of the field created at the same time the other beasts were.Adam named)whatever Adam called them and so he named the serpent along with all the other animals.
     
    #20 Thiscrosshurts, Jan 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013

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