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False Conversion

Discussion in 'Seeking Jesus?' started by Filthy, Jan 20, 2012.

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  1. Filthy

    Filthy New Member

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    Oh Brother, what exactly is false conversion? Today is the first I have heard it and quite frankly it saddens me. It seems to be a new twist on what I think the tired old resaving of people. Either the pulpits that proclaim this are a mess or I am just eternally lost. I believe the former to be the truth.

    My Background:
    Saved and Baptized at 13. Early 80's timeframe I believed fully in my heart at that time that Jesus was the only way.
    Through my later teen years, drinking and drugs became attractive.
    As a young adult in the US Navy, I found excitement in things that now scar my memory.

    Around age 38, the guilt began to weigh on me. I went through a very emotional situation that whipped me pretty good. I prayed to God to help me with that and I vowed, I was going back to Church.

    It didn't take long to see that things had changed alot since the 80's. The music was weird and I learned that by some theologians I wans't saved, and in fact never had been. I rejected that teaching and tried my best to stay. I wanted to hear God's word. During this time I for the first time read the Bible cover to cover, and stopped drinking on a dime. I went to this Church for two or 3 years. And finally threw in the towel after I grew weary of the teaching that I was never saved.

    On to the Next Church... 1 year. According to the teachings I was saved one week and eternally lost the next. One of the last sermons I heard here was on Esau selling his birth right and being rejected. Apparently that is what happens to God's people these days when they fall into sin and wallow in it.

    On to the Next Church.... 1 year. This was exciting. Signs and Wonders at every turn. Without going into the gory details.... I found where this was not the place for me.

    Leaving Church #3 has had me on a month long reading extravaganza. Today I found the False Conversion idea.

    I just don't see how this can be. There are some hard passages that on first blush might tell someone in my shoes to throw in the towel.. But those scriptures just don't seem to sqaure with the totality of the Bible and What I see in the red letter. And what any basic logic would tell you.

    Why would God continue to forgive Israel over and over, then create a second covenant where he does all the work, yet make it harder than the first covenant to live up to?

    I may be a church of one, for my beliefs. But, I am going to continue to search and find the God of this Universe through his Son. And I am going to keep trusting in His finsished work until He tells me I am unqualified!!!!

    My heart goes out to all that think I and others like me are eternally lost. It isn't all butterflies and roses as a prodigal. I am certainly joyed by the fact that He took me in 33 years ago just as he promised..... Even though I wandered off he found me and brought me back.
     
  2. faithfulservant

    faithfulservant New Member

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    The question of false conversions is a valid one in some respects. Jesus said there would be tares amongs the wheat in the church. However, He did say not to try to "dig" them out, as they would disrupt or harm the wheat and to wait until the end of the age and He will send His angels to gather the tares.

    That being said, we are not to judge hearts. That's God's job.

    But, it's clear you do recognize a "mess" indeed in terms of how the modern church approaches salvation.

    See, it seems the modern church can't sit down and handle chewing out the meat in order to digest it. After giving the milk of Christianity to newborns, they refuse to take the bottle away. When Christians begin to mature and wonder about things they see in the teachings of God, pastors and leaders simply shove the bottle back in their mouth, but now the milk has been watered down.

    My friend, you fell away from the Living God. You were saved when you were younger, but salvation is described in the New Testament in past, present, and future tenses. This should be an indication it's a path we follow, not something we act upon once and then walk away from.

    The warnings against falling away from God are so numerous in the New Testament it's absolutely astonishing anyone who has ever spent any real time in the Word of God could ever push a doctrine that declares anyone who returns to sinning was never saved.

    But that's what they have to do in order to reconcile their warped doctrine with what they like to view as Christianity.

    How frustrating is that for someone who was actually walking with the LORD, wanders off, and returns home as a prodigal son? I think you know.

    There are a number of threads discussing the "once saved always saved" doctrinal debate. In one of them, I shared a number of scriptures which clearly show that we must stay close to Jesus in order to overcome and endure. This is not "works," as some like to claim. This is Jesus' "work" in us, we just say, "Amen!" and we receive Jesus' transforming, empowering, Holy Spirit into our daily lives. We're just agreeable, He's all-powerful.

    Oh, and welcome back to the fold, my brother!
     
    #2 faithfulservant, Jan 20, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  3. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Eternally Lost

    Do you know what an eternally lost person is??????

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Let's get another translation in Case the KJV is not clear enough.

    Heb 6:4 Some people once had God's light. They experienced the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit.
    Heb 6:5 They experienced the goodness of God's word and the powers of the world to come.
    Heb 6:6 Yet, they have deserted Christ. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God.

    This does not state that they themselves can not come back, it states that they can not be led back by you or me. There is nothing we can do for them.

    Why?

    Because at this point, they have no interest in God, they could care less about Jesus, they have seared their conscience to a point that the Holy Spirit will not deal with them anymore. They made their choice.

    Do you know what a person is, that is not lost?

    One that has searched churches, one that falls, but gets back up, one that comes to some Christian forum looking for answers.

    That is one the Holy Spirit is still dealing with, and trying to get settled and established, getting past the very question if they are even saved or not. Moving on to greater and better things in God.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  4. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Excellent question. Because it is the process of progressive revelation. To whom much is given much is expected. It is as Jesus said, those who have tasted the old wine do not desire the new. Much easier to live up to a covenant that allows you to come back continually year after year with new sacrifices for new sin. But that was before the righteousness of God was revealed in Jesus Christ as it was hidden until this time.

    I don't believe that you are eternally lost. Those who have actually fulfilled all of the requirements of Hebrews 6 and have walked away, God will not allow to be brought back to repentance. What I suggest you do is consider all of those qualifications and see if you lack in any of them.

    • once enlightened
    • tasted of the heavenly gift
    • made partakers of the Holy Ghost
    • tasted the good word of God
    • tasted of the powers of the world to come,

    I will admit that I am not entirely sure exactly what these scriptures have outlined for the apostate that God will not allow to return unto him. Once enlightened, we believed the gospel. Tasted of the heavenly gift, receiving the atonement. Made partakers of the Holy Ghost, experienced the indwelling of Gods Spirit within us teaching and guiding us. Tasted of the good word of God, been fed and nourished up in our spirits being sanctified by his word. Tasted of the powers of the world to come, here I am not quite certain of this power but have ideas concerning it. The kingdom of God is not in word and deed but in power, we are told. All though out the scriptures I have found various instances where men of God spoke and God honored their words with power. Paul told a man he would not see the sun for a season and he went blind. Paul's words to the Corinthians was that he would if they wished come to them and know not the words but the power of them. Peter commanded a man to rise up and walk who was lame. Noah cursed Canaan and God honored it. Jacob blessed his grandchildren and God honored it. It is my belief so far that this power spoken of is the spoken word of man that is honored by God.

    Considering all of that, I don't think your eternally lost. But I do worry if you believe that you have been safe and secure since your profession at 13. There is a judgment coming for all, believers and unbelievers alike. The judgment is going to be according to your deeds. Those who truly believe that Jesus is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh will have no problem in that day as they will have spent their whole lives with one goal, be conformed to the image of Christ. The rest will not fare so well. Whatever you do, please, put all of that which is past in the past and follow after Christ with all your heart, mind, soul and body so that you may be found of him blameless and without spot in that day.

    In Jesus Name,

    Gary
     
  5. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Hi Mike, I read this and noticed that we see this a bit different as we were like minded in thinking of this scripture after reading the OP. I used to see this the way you have presented it until I went back one more verse. It says, and this we will do if God permit...then...For it is impossible. I now understand it to be that God actually will not permit it to be done because it would put Jesus to an open shame. Then I consider all the other factors that were given as necessary to have happened as well.

    Something to think about,

    Gary
     
  6. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    This we will do if God permits.

    It is also been Taught Wrong putting many in grief and depression thinking that there is no hope for them... so lets examine this together.

    This has been a difficult passage, unless we compare other scriptures.

    Paul said "This we will do if God permit"........... Permit what?

    Paul always being led by the Holy Spirit did not do anything until directed to do so. He had good intentions but always said, if God will permit, or the Lord Wills.

    So lets look at the whole passage.

    Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
    Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
    Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


    Paul is saying. "Look guys, some of you should be teaching already, but bless God, I have to teach you all over again some very basic principles. We need to get on the ball here, or else your not going to be even to discern between what is good, or evil."

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    Paul is still instructing them as future teachers, not being real happy with the progress, but Paul tells him he would like to move on to some higher teaching.

    Paul is Saying. "So, lets get past the principles of Christ, and get past the need to repent, and you all know you better have faith in God. You know how to baptize someone, you have laid hands on the sick and seen them healed, you know there is a resurrection and eternal Judgement."

    Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. (Go on to greater and deeper understanding of the Word, laying aside basic things)


    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Who is Paul still writing to? Future teachers in the Word.He said there is nothing we can do, to bring them back, if they decide to leave God, and go after another god. It's not going to happen.

    Why?

    Many at this time because of persecution where turning back to Judaism. It was a question as to try to get them back or not, as many had loved ones that left Jesus.

    GNB

    Heb 6:6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

    Is God involved in this?

    yes.

    2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    Paul never said a person that committed these things can't repent and come back. He said you or I can not just go bring them back to repentance, because they would not even listen. The light is out.

    Once a person forever decides they do not want all God has, want Jesus, wants nothing to do with the Holy Spirit after tasting all these things, God will give them over to what they want.Unless God deals with them to repent, they won't, or even consider it.

    Once God does, they have to respond to that open door and recover themselves and repent and get right again.

    What is that sin really though??????????????

    Heb 10:26
    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    This is one sin...... and only applies just like Heb 6 said, we have to be in a place to fully understand all that we are missing out on.

    What is that sin??? Its the same sin in Hebrew 6:

    Heb 10:29
    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    This is the one that God will not draw you back. This is the unforgivable one. We are sealed by the Spirit of God until the day of redemption, and counting that blood covenant as worthless and unholy, is blasphemy against the Work of the Holy Spirit.

    We are born again through the Work of the Holy Spirit, and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and giving power on high by the Holy Spirit..

    What did Jesus say:

    Mat 12:31
    Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    The conditions of Heb 6, and Heb 10 must be met to commit this sin.

    counting the blood covenant, and work of the Holy Spirit as nothing and worthless, and going back to serve another god, is one way to get to this point. It is what Paul warned us about.

    What did John say?

    1Jn 5:16
    If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    Once again, there is only one sin here that can be committed.

    what sin could that be? John warned them......... a few verses down. It must be in line with what Jesus and Paul both said.

    1Jn 5:21
    Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.


    Joh 16:8
    And when he is come (Holy Spirit), he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    AMP
    Joh 16:8 And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:

    So...................

    Anyone still seeking God, wants to get right with God, is in fear they have committed some unpardonable sin, and would like to fix it. Means they still have a conscience and dealing's from the Holy Spirit to get right.

    Someone that has truly committed sin that Paul, Jesus, and john said, getting right with God won't even cross their mind. Not one bit. Without the Holy Spirit's conviction, there will never be repentance.

    Jesus Is Lord.








     
    #6 Brother Mike, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  7. Filthy

    Filthy New Member

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    In hind site my post was probably not much profitable. I am on the path of soaking myself in HIS teachings. Sometimes I need help with Commentaries and such to check my perspective on what I think a passage might be saying.

    This who is and who isn't just seems so easy to me. I can see His Word in what has happened to me.

    1. He gave me the deposit of the Holy Spirit long long ago.
    2. He is the one that promised He wouldn't lose me.
    3. I wandered and sinned. We all have sinned since our profession.
    4. The seed (Word) that was put in me on the day of my first confession, came alive out of no where and brought me back. Not just to Church, but to a point of earnestly wanting God's Word.

    Earlier, I referenced a reading extravaganza. After a typical Sunday at the Signs and Wonders Church, I prayed for help getting focused. I was seeing all this great stuff going on, yet wasn't getting any of it. I was however fully bought into all the teachings there. I was just sad that I wasn't receibing what others with better faith were getting. WOW did he ever focus me. Within twelve hours of that prayer, and with little or no thought, was poking around on the Internet on a subject when BANG!!!!!!!!!! I knew I was at the wrong Church.

    Again, that seed from the beginning was leading me. My heart would know something and as I read HIS word, it backed up what my heart was telling me.

    What is rising up in me, is that there are many forms of falling away. It's very easy to detect on we who have overtly sinned. But, much more subtle when the pulpit and teachers are mis handling the word of God.

    I find it very interesting that I have gone full circle. The mis handling of God's Word and denying what he did at the day of my profession, drove me away. (My choice) I found something at the signs and wonders church, that was very attractive. But their mis handling of God's Word could only lead to destruction.

    I am on the quest for Truth and Truth alone. And to allow God's seed in me to grow by HIS hand.

    I am fully aware that the board in my eye can be seen by the whole world. Just wanted to let those who are concered with the board I have know that I can see their speck.

    I am certainly not pointing that comment at anyone here!!!!

    Thanks for letting me share!!!!!!
     
    #7 Filthy, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  8. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    signs and wonders

    The gifts of the Holy Spirit is to profit man, and to help. The gifts and callings are also without repentance.

    One operating in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit does not make their doctrine right, or make them even right with God. They are gifts given to men.

    Something to watch for, as we know them by their fruit, not their faith in the operation of the gifts.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  9. Filthy

    Filthy New Member

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    Could you clarify your point in bold above?

    I can only speak from what I saw. And wow, people prophesied over me and knew things about me that very very few humans would know and they were strangers to me. The promises of my future were amazing.

    I am pretty confident that these were familiar spirits. And they were operating as light.

    I praise God for answering my prayer to give me focus. Otherwise, I would have continued down this path. There is some dangerous stuff going on.
     
  10. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Gifts and callings.

    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    AMP:
    Rom 11:29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    The Holy Spirit and the operation of the Holy Spirit is a gift. Using the gifts of the Spirit does not denote one's right standing with God.

    Look at Jonah who was rebellious, trying to escape God. Look at Balaam who God used but still stayed in disobedience. Look at the Old prophet who lied to the younger prophet to disobey God, and got him killed. Even though the Old Prophet lied, and did wrong, God still supernaturally spoke to him. (1 Kings 13:11-31)

    Prophesies:

    Are given to edify, or build up. They must be established on two or three witnesses however. They also must always bare witness to your spirit as being right.

    Our lives are to be led by the Spirit of God, not the so called Prophets of God. (Rom 8:14)

    So, if God has not dealt with you on something, yet someone else says "Thus saith the Lord" and this is the first you heard it, I would discount it, right then and there.

    Many have gotten themselves into error over these things, and even caused many to blindly follow wrong things. Familiar spirits do know things about you, and can attempt to lead you into believing wrong things.

    All these "Thus saith the Lord's" had gotten way out of hand, that Paul had to write........

    1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
    1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    So, if God has never dealt with you on something, and someone claims to have heard God for you, being the first time you ever heard it. Just ignore it politely. (Repeated, but important.)

    Jesus is Lord.
     
    #10 Brother Mike, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  11. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Mike, you and I have opposing views on the doctrine of sin and salvation and it is impossible for us to reconcile those differences. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit includes profaning the Word of God as he is the author who moved the holy men of old as they spake as found in Peters epistle. So when some one is producing heresy they are in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit. We are told that if we speak at all it is to be as the oracles of God as found in Peters epistle also. That we will be judged for every idle word as Jesus taught. You may not believe the things I say about Hebrews 6 or any other of the passages that deal with the future judgement that is going to happen to those who believe but continue in sin that Luke referenced in the book of Acts when quoting Paul. All I can do is meekly instruct those who oppose themselves. The passage simply says that God will not tolerate anyone who abuses his goodness which is in Christ. You get one opportunity to crucify Christ unto yourself. There is no continually going back to the cross for redemption. You believe this to be error, I understand that. We wont know absolutely for sure until the day that God judges the world by Jesus Christ. Those who are in error will not inherit the kingdom of God as per the letter to the Galatians.

    What it all boils down to is lawyers and doctors of the law discussing their understanding that they have been given. Those who are wrong are not given a pardon but judged at the judgement seat of Christ. And all those who follow their ways receive the same for their own error. My hope is that God has been molding me into a vessel of honor and not of dishonor as I ask him to do daily. He is the potter. We are but clay.

    Best wishes on your studies and my sincere hope that all you teach to others is truth. I once believed as you do but was shown the error of my thoughts by the spirit that dwells in me and teaches me.

    Gary
     
  12. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Thank you.

    Thank you gdemoss

    If you read everything I posted, I am not sure where we disagree here at???

    Every Idle word (Words not connected to thought but from the Heart) will be judged, which can be good or bad.

    My post was pointing out that certain conditions as Paul listed had to be met to in fact commit this sin. Anyone that wants God, can only mean the Holy Spirit is still convicting them of sin, and God is drawing them. (Note, I am not in the camp that God picks and chooses who get's saved.)

    Someone that has rejected God, speaking against the oracles of God with full knowledge of what they are speaking, will have their conscience seared to a point they would never come back to God.

    Now if someone in a foolish condition went against God, and against the Holy Spirit, but decided they wanted God, could they come to God, or did they commit that sin which can not be forgiven??

    Paul would know.

    Your the blessed!!

    Jesus is Lord.
     
  13. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Regarding sin and conviction

    Conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit is not solely for the purpose of drawing men unto God. Remember Stephen who convicted men of their sin while speaking through the Holy Spirit unto them. I understand that your speaking about the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit who convicts a believer of sin but his very presence within them would continue that even past the point of the searing of the conscience. So it isn't evidence that they can still be saved.

    You keep accrediting Paul with the writing of this work. There is no scripture to support this claim that I know of but rather scripture that contradicts such a claim. Consider Chapter 2 of Hebrews:

    1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    Paul was not one who based the things he wrote and knew upon what he was taught by men as this texts suggests the writers of Hebrews to be claiming. Those who came to the writer with the gospel came bearing signs and wonders to declare to him the truth. Paul was taught directly by the Holy Spirit through revelation.

    I still hold to the fact that the text plainly says that there are certain requirements that one must fulfill in order to be rejected in this manner. Apostasy after having taken part in certain aspects of the kingdom. Satan, however wants everyone who ever commits a single sin to think that they have been rejected. Apostasy simply means falling away from a repentant state toward God. I openly encourage anyone who thinks that they have done this to dedicate every fiber of their being to serving the living God with a fully cleansed temple as if they had not done so, in the case that they are wrong.

    When I spoke saying that you and I have difference in doctrine, I was speaking from the stand point of reading the way you used scriptures to assess what was meant by God when he spoke of sin. 1 John doesn't speak about a single sin that is unpardonable that if you see your brother committing, your not supposed to pray for him. It speaks about willful sin with knowledge that is directly tied into Hebrews 10:26. God forgives sins of ignorance and sins of weakness, but is very limited in his capacity to forgive willful sin with knowledge of the sin. For those there remains no more sacrifice for sin. The blood of bulls and goats never turned a man away from his sin. He came back every year with a new atonement. The blood of the Son of God, however, turns men away from sin and unto life that is in him. Those who believe that their works don't matter will have a big surprise come the day of judgment. We are to walk as he walked if we want boldness in that day. We are to purify ourselves as he is pure. There is no room for those who decide that they want to dabble in sin and think they are covered by the blood. The Laodiceans made this grave mistake and thought they were clothed with the righteousness of God while they were blind, naked and wretched.

    We can not afford to continue in sin because we have been given Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit of God. The Israelites were shut up unto faith as the true righteousness of God was hidden from them as well as the rest of the world. But we who have knowledge will be judged by that knowledge and our application of it to our lives. We have the whole council of God at our disposal everyday and will be judged as thus. The only thing that will matter in that day is do our works show that light has come into the world and we loved that light or did we continue to dwell in darkness. Forgive me if I misunderstand your post and you actually agree with my position.

    In Jesus Name,

    Gary
     
  14. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    sounds good to me.

    I think it's the angle we are looking at the scripture, but everything you have written sounds good to me.

    John did say there is a sin unto death, I don't say pray for that, then at the end he warned to stay away from idols.

    I guess where the difference is our view that if we continue to sin, then we never knew God, and his seed is not in us.

    I think as one that try's to encourage, anyone wanting to come back to God, or wanting to repent still has a place to do so. I believe that since it takes grace through faith to receive Jesus, then it would take a willful decision to leave God the same way you came in. I know some think that willfully continuing to sin would put the nail in the coffin, but then we have no guide as to where that line might be.

    As for Hebrews and Paul being the writer......... Who knows...

    Keep encouraging others in the Word, challenging them to grow stronger in the Lord and in the power of his might.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  15. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Interesting Mike, to see the sin unto death as Idolatry. The problem with the view is in the wording of the text that states their is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. To take this to say that there is a specific sin which leads unto death, one has to understand that the other must also be true that there is a specific sin that leads not unto death. 2 specific sins. What then would we do with the rest? We would have to have 2 specific sins that could categorize all sin. Willful and unwillful/ignorant sin does just that and is why I have leaned to that understanding of the text.

    The guide for the line of willful sin. If John is indeed saying that we should not pray for those we know to be sinning willfully, then yes we have and understanding of the line drawn by God. I think the best explanation comes from Hebrews chapter 3&4. Willful sin is rooted in unbelief. People are swayed by reading certain scriptures taken out of context that there is no hurry to become sanctified. They procrastinate and deceive themselves into believing that the sin they are still doing is because they just haven't grown enough to have understanding. The truth is that they ignore the plainness of the scripture that tells them if they continue doing what they are doing they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Because Jesus has been played out as a wimpy God who is begging his creation to be his friend, and that he is willing to wait until their death bed to accept them if they should turn and believe, the church has grown into much heresy to support such an idea. The truth is that the command is to immediately turn from sin. Picking up your cross and denying yourself is to stop sinning. Sin is a product of the lust of self desire. Jesus said you cannot be his disciple if you do not do this. So do we have a guide as to how far one must tempt Christ to become rejected? For many are called but few are chosen.

    Have a blessed day Mike.

    Gary
     
  16. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Interesting........

    This would take sitting down and disusing the fine points. Everything you have written sounds perfectly right to me.

    Idolatry, or turning away from God, discounting the blood covenant unholy that you once knew and cherished, understanding fully what you where doing would be a good case for not ever coming back. Going to a false god would just be one way, not saying that Idolatry is that sin.
    It's just something John made sure he warned about after making his statement, seeming that is one thing that could produce the sin unto death.



    That is a very interesting statement. I have much to say about it, but not here.

    Well, I certainly agree with you, all sin leads to, and produces death in our life. It takes effect faster than what some thing because sin is just not some "spiritual death" that happens later. Sin can effect your finances, cause you to get sick, and the list goes on in Deut 28...

    My hope is that the original poster did get some hope and answers, and it sounds all good to me..

    Your the blessed!!

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  17. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Anytime Mike
     
  18. SpiritLedEd

    SpiritLedEd Active Member

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    Filthy, the reference is to Romans 11:29, which tells me that God never revokes His gifts and callings on our lives. However, I believe that I must also be actively involved in my salvation on a daily basis. In my opinion, Paul deals with this issue very effectively: "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed - not only in my presence, but how much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." (Php 2:12-13)

    Spirit Led Ed (SLE)
     
  19. Filthy

    Filthy New Member

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    Hebrews can make a person want to throw the bilbe in the trash and give up. No matter what my past condition was, I am in it full bore now. I believe God has also given us other guides as to who He is byHIS creation.

    He gave us marriage, and children which model His Kingdom in a sense. There are many times, I'd like to throttle my eldest and shove her out the door. However, I have a hard time defining a senario where by I'd say that's it. Depart from me!!!! She may take her self from me. But, who on this earth who has love that is imperfect would shut the door on her when she came back? I am watching her walking a fine line and saying be careful you don't know where these choices are going to take you.

    Many times my child has wandered. Many times my child has accused me of things I didn't do. When she comes to me in a contrite manner, I am always there to receive. When she doesn't I am able to forgive. Even when I have given her the tools to avoid circumstances that will cause problems.

    If my other child, who gives me no grief, starts counseling her that her position with me is futile, I would not stand for that.

    He has also used my wife to bring me back. I married a foreign woman who was not a Christian. God made a move on her that is nothing short of miraculous. If my position is futile, then HE has done this for her, and is rubbing my nose in it.

    We have all sinned since our first profession of the faith. Some by human standards have sinned much worse. However, don't we learn that position is wrong by the Sermon on the Mount. Dirty Sinners, are Dirty Sinners.

    I am just saddened that we make up terms that aren't documented in His word, then use those terms to discourage.

    During my trip back. Alot has happened to me. As I stated before, I stopped drinking on a dime. Almost immediately, the thirst for beer dried up. I have no place for the music that I used to listen to. I have a deep compassion for people that during my wandering I never had. I have a hard time visiting those with whom I shared the pleasures of the world with. I get invited and I have no real desire to be around. When I go, my heart hurts for them. These were my friends and I see them wallowing in death.

    I see the above items as my fruits. They may not be as exciting as what others have. If I am nothing more than a tare, I need to quit. Otherwise my testimony is going to hurt others chances of being touched by the Creator of the Universe. What a shame that would be if I kept quiet about things while others like me accept that there is not point in coming back.
     
  20. gdemoss

    gdemoss New Member

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    Filthy, can you say that you have fulfilled all of the requirements in Hebrews 6 before you wandered off? That is and always has been my point. You may never had a commitment to God that is considered one that he rejects and doesn't allow to come back. I believe this is the case. As the scripture says, we are supposed to be able to tell the difference between the tares and the wheat after a certain amount of time has passed in their walk with God. Those who are genuine will look like wheat, the tares will resemble tares. Wheat is good for food, tares are not.

    About Hebrews, we must remember that it was written to Hebrews. Although the truth applies to all Christians the main focus was meant to be given understanding to Hebrews.

    In Christ,

    Gary
     

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