Does it matter what day we keep the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by judge not, Mar 3, 2012.

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  1. judge not

    judge not Member

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    Sunday, Saturday-what difference does it make?
    Some Christians observe Saturday, the seventh day of the week,while others, the majority, observe Sunday, the first day of the week
    We know the Sabbath was made at creation-it was made for mankind.
    The Sabbath was to be a sign between God and his people.
    The Sabbath was to be a perpetual covenant.
    The Sabbath was being kept long before the Ten Commandments were written in stone,
    Jesus kept the Sabbath and His followers kept the seventh day Sabbath long after His death and resurrection.
    The early New Testament church kept the Sabbath and since Christ and the Apostles continued to uphold this original Old testament law, the only conclusion we can come to is we should be keeping it as well.
    What changed? And when?
     
  2. philosopher

    philosopher New Member

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    One thing to remember is that the sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath. When Jesus was on the earth, he often healed the sick and performed miracles on the sabbath; and this infuriated the pharisees and religious hypocrites.

    Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”
    Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

    He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. - Mark 3:1-6
     
  3. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Hello judge not.

    Here is what you wrote,

    Sunday, Saturday-what difference does it make?
    Some Christians observe Saturday, the seventh day of the week,while others, the majority, observe Sunday, the first day of the week
    We know the Sabbath was made at creation-it was made for mankind.
    The Sabbath was to be a sign between God and his people.
    The Sabbath was to be a perpetual covenant.
    The Sabbath was being kept long before the Ten Commandments were written in stone,


    You neglected to mention that the Jewish Sabbath was also included in the ten commandments.

    Once the Jewish Sabbath appeared in the Mosaic Law it belongs to the covenant between God and Israel.

    We being Gentiles were not included in this covenant, it was between God and Israel.

    Read Acts 15 this will clear up this persistent misunderstanding.
     
  4. judge not

    judge not Member

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    The Sabbath was a sign between God and man(kind) Gen2:1-3
    The commandments and Sabbath were known centuries before the covenant and Moses, and 2 generations before Judah- Gen26:5
    The Ten Commandments did not originate with Moses, they were codified and written in stone. The 4th Commandment begins with " Remember..."-.it already existed-it was reminding them of their requirement from the beginning.
    Both Jew and gentile observed the Sabbath together in synagogues in the New Testament.
    The Apostles and the New Testament church(made up of Jews and gentiles) observed the Holy days and Sabbath long after Jesus's resurrection.
    The prophets Isaiah and Daniel with visions from God show all flesh(mankind) in the Millennium keeping God's Commandments, Holydays and Sabbath.
    What I take from Acts 15 concerning the Jerusalem conference is that God did not require circumcision to receive the Holy Spirit-Acts10
    The Apostles wanted to ensure that every new gentile convert would have access to the scriptures on the Sabbath in the synagogues.
    They didn't have Bibles of the OT to hand out in those days.
    Nothing in the Bible suggests that the Seventh day Sabbath covenant was to come to an end with the advent of Christianity.
    jn
     
  5. CuriousLauren

    CuriousLauren New Member

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    Very confusing

    I am not a christian; I am jewish but not practicing. From time to time I feel drawn to learn about Jesus. It has always confused me about the Saturday/Sunday thing. I thought it somehow got confused when jews and christians were separated.
     
  6. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Hello Judge not.

    I appreciate your reply, I will address your reply in a later post.

    I wish to first define what circumcision means when the term is used in the New Testament.

    From Eastons Bible Dictionary,

    It was a sign and seal of the covenant of grace as well as of the national covenant between God and the Hebrews.

    (1) It sealed the promises made to Abraham, which related to the commonwealth of Israel, national promises.

    (2) But the promises made to Abraham included the promise of redemption (Gal. 3:14),
    a promise which has come upon us. The covenant with Abraham was a dispensation
    or a specific form of the covenant of grace, and circumcision was a sign and seal of that covenant.
    It had a spiritual meaning. It signified purification of the heart, inward circumcision effected
    by the Spirit (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Ezek. 44:7; Acts 7:51; Rom. 2:28; Col. 2:11).
    Circumcision as a symbol shadowing forth sanctification by the Holy Spirit has now
    given way to the symbol of baptism. But the truth embodied in both ordinances is ever the same,
    the removal of sin, the sanctifying effects of grace in the heart.

    Under the Jewish dispensation, church and state were identical. No one could be a member
    of the one without also being a member of the other. Circumcision was a sign and seal of
    membership in both. Every circumcised person bore thereby evidence that he was one of
    the chosen people, a member of the church of God as it then existed, and consequently
    also a member of the Jewish commonwealth.


    This last paragraph is of special significance to us judge not.

    Do you agree with this definition?
    <hr>
     
    #6 David777, Mar 3, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012
  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    7 The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away.8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life?9 If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God!10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way.11 So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
    2 Cor 3:7-11 (NLT)
     
  8. judge not

    judge not Member

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    Well it seems during the Jewish wars in the 1st and 2nd centuries a certain anti-Semitism was developing and the Christians of that time began to distance themselves from practices that were commonly viewed as Jewish.
    Around the 3rd and 4th centuries the Catholic church gained favor under Constantine the Great. It slowly incorporated customs adapted from pagan worship. Sunday became the day of worship based on the honoring of the sun god, a deity idolized by the masses in the Roman empire.
    In 365 AD the council of Laodicea declared-Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath but must work that day and subsequently must celebrate the Lord's day on Sunday, the first day of the week.
    Most theologians, catholic and protestants admit that Sunday observance can't be justified from the Scriptures
    That's it in a nutshell
    jn
     
  9. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Back again judge not.

    Do the ten commandments apply to Christians?

    Read what the apostles had to say on this matter.


    Acts 15

    5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up,
    saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to
    keep the law of Moses.”


    Note line 5, it says the "law of Moses", this includes the ten commandments.

    This caused much debate, does the Law of Moses apply to Gentiles that believe in Jesus?

    When you consider the problem it is evident that there was tremendous confusion
    over this problem. What Laws apply to the non circumcised believers?

    This was the great issue in the time of the apostles!

    The Jerusalem Council, considered this problem and worked out the solution.

    Now we continue on in the book of Acts to discover the solution.

    6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

    7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:
    “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us,
    that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

    8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit,
    just as He did to us,

    9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples
    which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved
    in the same manner as they.

    After the solution had been found the Gentile Churches had to be notified.

    This is how the letter to these churches was worded.

    The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
    To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

    Greetings.

    24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words,
    unsettling your souls, saying,

    “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—

    25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with
    our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

    28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden
    than these necessary things:


    29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled,
    and from sexual immorality.
    If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

    This is the decree of the Apostles, what should Gentile believers abstain from, sexual immorality.

    Christian fellowship and the breaking of bread is allowed seven days a week if you wish.

    It is not a matter of Sunday or a Saturday for Gentile believers.

    End of argument, anyone who says otherwise is in error and should take it up with the apostles.
     
    #9 David777, Mar 4, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  10. Gael

    Gael New Member

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    It really doesn't matter...

    Romans 14:

    <SUP>5</SUP> One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-28287 class=versenum>6</SUP> Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Yes indeed, and it should be something kept strictly between a person and the Lord.
    However we also have instruction from Paul in Col.2.
    11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
    13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.
    16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
    20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
    Col 2:11-23 (NLT)

    So is it wrong to demand others to adhere to Sabbath keeping as laid out in the Law given through Moses?
     
    #11 jiggyfly, Mar 4, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  12. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Follow the light you have.

    Christians can learn to follow their Conscience, and obey the light they are given. If that means keeping a Sabbath day Holy, then do so with conviction, faithfully before God. It's not your right to determine what light others have, or force your faith and convictions on them.

    I fully believe in tithing faithfully. I believe it brings great blessings and opens the door for the Lord to Honor you, since you put his Kingdom first.
    If Tithing is paid as some sort of "Protection" money out of fear, or duty, then it becomes wrong. The same with keeping a Sabbath.

    Jesus Is Lord.
     
  13. judge not

    judge not Member

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    David777-re:circumcision,sorry I can't post links, yours or mine, due limitations set by the rules for a member with less than 100 posts
    Yes, I understand circumcision was a sign of the covenant God made with the children of Abraham.
    But God does not require this today for Christian conversion.
    Romans2:28,29"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision,which is outward in the flesh- But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God."
    Gal 6:15- circumcision is no longer needed.
    Circumcision was an outwardly symbolic aspect of the Law/
    Jews taught justification was only possible if they were physically circumcised-the Apostles opposed this way of thinking because Obedience to Law through physical means as a way of justification would imply faith in Christ as our redeemer is unnecessary.
    Heb9-symbolic regulations or ceremonies filled a temporary need-but once our Redeemer arrived their observance was no longer required.
    Heb10
    But the Spiritual royal law of God continues.
    Circumcision is now a choice but not an ordinance to be a Christian. For the Jewish community it continues to be practiced as part of their custom and ancestry
     
  14. judge not

    judge not Member

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    Was Paul dismissing any need to keep the seventh day Sabbath, the day God sanctified (meaning it was set apart for a holy use).
    The word Sabbath is not used once in Romans 14 yet some people use that chapter claiming the seventh day Sabbath is irrelevant.
    In Corinth heretics were surfacing deceiving the Word of God and Paul was warning not to listen to those who taught differently.
    Would it make sense that Paul would be teaching on the seventh day Sabbath about keeping all the Commandments of God and the Sabbath and then we extract from that it doesn't matter what day we celebrate
    as long as in our mind and heart we worship God.
    Read Ezekiel20:12,13-Did it matter to God that Israel polluted God's Sabbath?-Yes- verse 16
    It was also the reason God wouldn't let the Israelites into the promise land along with idol worshiping.
    the Sabbath is an ongoing reminder of our Creator. Also it is a " Holy Convocation " of God's people assembling together.
    In James2:10,11-" For whosever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty........you become a transgressor of the Law"
    Jesus, our Savior, set the example for us, by keeping the Seventh day Sabbath weekly-Luke4:16.
    Why wouldn't we?
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Judge Not, why don't you try and address what Paul says in 2Cor. 3:7-11 and col. 2:11-23?
     
  16. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Hello judge not.

    Thank you for your reply Judge not, sorry about the length of this post. You should read the whole post carefully judge not.

    I noticed a serious misunderstanding in your reply.

    This is what you stated,

    Jews taught justification was only possible if they were physically circumcised-the Apostles opposed this way of thinking because Obedience to Law through physical means as a way of justification would imply faith in Christ as our redeemer is unnecessary.

    It was not the "Jews", it was some Jewish believers in Jesus who taught that adherence to the law plus Jesus was necessary. This is what caused the debate judge not.

    That is what Acts15:5 says judge not, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    The Apostles correctly recognized that the law of Moses was not applicable to Gentile believers (uncircumcised). That is what the debate was all about judge not. Jesus plus circumcision plus the law of Moses, this is what some Jewish Christians were proclaiming. This is Jesus Christ plus legalism. Notice the phrase "and command them to keep the law of Moses", this is the same as Jesus plus the Ten Commandments, same deal, same legalism.

    A type of legalism is where a person tries to keep or maintain his salvation by keeping a Mosaic law or a number of Mosaic laws. A person receives their salvation by faith (Eph 2:8-9), not by our ability to be good because no one does good (Rom 3:10-12).

    As Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, and Gal 2:21 clearly show, we are justified by faith, not by faith plus works. Or faith plus obedience to some or all laws. Furthermore, there are strict warnings about attempting to keep the law in order to maintain salvation: Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” If you state a sabbath is necessary then you are obligated to fulfill the whole law judge not.

    And James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” So, if a person is seeking to maintain his salvation by his works (a Law or Laws), then he is under obligation to keep all of the law, and if he does not then he is guilty before God.

    Furthermore, consider Jesus’ words in

    Matt. 7:22-23, “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

    23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” Jesus condemns them because they were appealing to their salvation based on their faith and doing good works. Notice they combine faith and works in order to be justified. Christians are justified by the Grace of God, sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to add the Ten Commandments to Salvation by Grace. It is a fatal error, the law condemns, the Spirit gives Life, the law was the shadow, Grace is the reality.

    Look at the following verse,

    Colossians 2:16

    16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day

    17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    Let no one judge you regarding a Sabbath day, this Sabbath day is only a shadow. Christians are not under any law, or any commandment, they are new creations. Salvation is never Christ plus something, it is Christ alone.
     
  17. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Dear bro Mike.

    I noticed in your reply,

    I fully believe in tithing faithfully. I believe it brings great blessings and opens
    the door for the Lord to Honor you, since you put his Kingdom first. If Tithing is
    paid as some sort of "Protection" money out of fear, or duty, then it becomes wrong.
    The same with keeping a Sabbath.


    You do not mind if we deal with this at a later stage.

    I am focused on judge not at this present time Mike.

    There is a bit more to this than just a sabbath observance, thanks mate.
     
  18. judge not

    judge not Member

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    The Colossian church was primarily gentile. "regarding the festivals, and new moons and sabbaths" let no man judge you. But was Paul addressing the Law of the old Testament?
    Could Paul who earlier in Romans7:12 describing God's law as " holy and just and good " be referring to the same law in Colossians with its references to principalities and powers and worshiping angels?
    Colossians2 is actually a condemnation of an ascetic human philosophy, not a discussion of which laws are binding for Christians.
    Remember Paul was right in the heart of pagan territory.

    One thing on Sabbath observance in the New Testament's epistles is that there was never any conflict over which day to keep.
    This silence of the NT epistles on the subject of the Sabbath, if anything, supports the Sabbathkeepers' position.
    Surely the Pharisaic believers who caused such a stir over circumcision Acts 15 would have loudly voiced their objections had the early Christians abandoned the Sabbath or have it celebrated on whatever day they chose,
    Yet, no such objection is recorded in the New Testament.
     
  19. David777

    David777 New Member

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    Sideline information.

    If I was reading these posts I would wonder what all the fuss was about.

    What is the Sabbath day?

    From Judaism 101 (an introductory course in Judaism).

    Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism.
    It is the only ritual observance instituted in the Ten Commandments.
    It is also the most important special day, even more important than Yom Kippur.
    This is clear from the fact that more aliyot (opportunities for congregants to
    be called up to the Torah) are given on Shabbat than on any other day.

    Shabbat is primarily a day of rest and spiritual enrichment.
    The word "Shabbat" comes from the root Shin-Beit-Tav, meaning to cease,
    to end, or to rest.

    Shabbat is not specifically a day of prayer. Although we do pray on Shabbat,
    and spend a substantial amount of time in synagogue praying, prayer is not
    what distinguishes Shabbat from the rest of the week.

    Observant Jews pray every day, three times a day. See Jewish Liturgy.
    To say that Shabbat is a day of prayer is no more accurate than to say that
    Shabbat is a day of feasting: we eat every day, but on Shabbat, we eat
    more elaborately and in a more leisurely fashion.

    The same can be said of prayer on Shabbat.

    In modern America, we take the five-day work-week so much for granted
    that we forget what a radical concept a day of rest was in ancient times.
    The weekly day of rest has no parallel in any other ancient civilization.
    In ancient times, leisure was for the wealthy and the ruling classes only,
    never for the serving or laboring classes. In addition, the very idea of rest
    each week was unimaginable. The Greeks thought Jews were lazy because
    they insisted on having a "holiday" every seventh day.

    It is not a moral law it is a ritual!
     
    #19 David777, Mar 4, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  20. Giggles4God

    Giggles4God Moderator

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    I believe as long as we take a day for rest, it matters not what day it is.

    Someone else has already given the scripture I was going to so I see no point in repeating it.