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  1. #41
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    The narrow way

    Just remember that God does not partake in semantics when it comes to salvation. It is put very simply:

    John 3:16

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

    Believes in him?

    Matthew 17:5
    He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

    believes that He is the son of God, and what else?

    1 Corinthians 15:3-4



    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,


    Why did he die? Go back to John 3:16 for the answer

    What about water baptism?

    Matthew 3:11
    "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

    This scripture leads me to believe that a water baptism ceremony is not the key to being saved, yet the above scriptures outline what it means to be saved. And staying saved?


    Mark 1:14-15
    Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

    That sums it up right there, live your life repenting and reading and believing the Bible. I do believe a relationship with Christ is just what it is, it can be called a relationship because we are living;as well He is living. Two living beings together as such sounds like a relationship to me.

    God Bless!

    exVermin

  2. #42
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    Thanks Vermin. Good sound doctrine.
    I liked the part where you said
    That sums it up right there, live your life repenting and reading and believing the Bible
    .
    Repenting being the operative word!

    I think there is an aspect of "salvation" that is frequently overlooked in discussions like this, and that is LOVE.

    I would think that love would be one of the main ingredients in salvation wouldn't you? But who talks about it? Probably because it is not a nice neat little doctrine with which to classify people.

    I think that is the spiritual reality though. That when it comes to "who's right and who's wrong" the truth is that it can be pretty hard to tell sometimes, and just knowing the bible does not make you right with God. You have to walk to talk.

    1 John 4:20
    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    1 John 3:17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    Thanks Vermin. Good sound doctrine.
    I liked the part where you said .
    Repenting being the operative word!

    I think there is an aspect of "salvation" that is frequently overlooked in discussions like this, and that is LOVE.

    I would think that love would be one of the main ingredients in salvation wouldn't you? But who talks about it? Probably because it is not a nice neat little doctrine with which to classify people.

    I think that is the spiritual reality though. That when it comes to "who's right and who's wrong" the truth is that it can be pretty hard to tell sometimes, and just knowing the bible does not make you right with God. You have to walk to talk.

    1 John 4:20
    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    Quote:
    1 John 3:17
    But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
    If we love our brother doesnt that mean we know God but if we dont how can that dimish our knowledge of God that we previously had?

    Therefore we must understand this verse as indicator of who has become to know God, that is those who love their brother.

    1 John 3:17
    is another thing but it has nothing to do with salvation but its about the love you experience in relationship with God.

  4. #44
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    God looks in the heart and saves man and when God chooses you there's a verse in the bible about that saying who can lay a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. I dont think its good and is infact forbidded in bible to judge other peoples salvation, were just told to preach the word and i think most important word here is that Jesus died for us. (and unquestionable christian doctrine)

    But some people try evaluate the genuises of other people's salvation although its only Lord who can see the hearts and what genuines and thoughts and beliefs and undersntanding people have.

    God knows His own also and i think its the faith in Jesus that matters. Not by which foot you entered the faith first.

    That's just the way i see it, simple really leaving thinking to God as already so many people believe in Jesus but have come to him from different ways, but clearly to me share a genuie faith....

    What the apostoles wrote in their letters was not their concerns of peoples acceptance of Jesus , but of their faith, which indicated to them praise worthy news that the people really had become true believer in Christ.
    Last edited by jari; 10-15-11 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jari View Post
    If we love our brother doesnt that mean we know God but if we dont how can that dimish our knowledge of God that we previously had?
    Hi Jari. I would have to say that yes, if you stop loving your brother, that SOMETHING in you has diminished. Maybe your head Knowledge has not diminished but your awareness of God and your awareness of your own sinfulness has.
    Therefore we must understand this verse as indicator of who has become to know God, that is those who love their brother.
    Sure, but I think our relationship with God is constantly in flux, according to how we respond to him.
    For example if we stop loving our brothers, what does that do to our relationship with God?

    1 John 3:17
    is another thing but it has nothing to do with salvation but its about the love you experience in relationship with God.
    I respectfully disagree. I think having or not having the love of God dwelling in you has EVERYTHING to do with your salvation.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    Hi Jari. I would have to say that yes, if you stop loving your brother, that SOMETHING in you has diminished. Maybe your head Knowledge has not diminished but your awareness of God and your awareness of your own sinfulness has.

    Sure, but I think our relationship with God is constantly in flux, according to how we respond to him.
    For example if we stop loving our brothers, what does that do to our relationship with God?



    I respectfully disagree. I think having or not having the love of God dwelling in you has EVERYTHING to do with your salvation.
    I believe in unconditional love of God. its not about how much we love Him but about the fact the He first loved us and always will love us more than we can ever love Him.

    We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19

    And I do believe God's love give us the responding love so it's all glory to Him.

    So about the loving brother again... Bible says anyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    So John was stating a criteria of how to know some one is born of God. Yet he also said we should love. Does this mean now that we become born of God when we choose to love? No not according to 1 John 4:19 because He first loved us.

    What it means in my opinion is that those who are infact born again have the ability to love and should do so.

    And herefrom we also know the false brothers that cannot love for they are not born of God.

    Thats the way i see it but i understand some people also believe that our state of being born of God can be nullified but i do not believe so because bible teaches believers are given holy spirit in them at point of conversion.



    Bible also says that its those who confess have Jesus in them:

    1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.


    So once again i ask do we see this so that Jesus wouldnt dwell in you if you choose not to love? Well bible says if you hate brother your a liar about loving God (1 John 4:20). So i believe only born again can love spontaniously and willingfully but everyone also has choise not to love but it does not seem to be the criteria here as long as you dont hate your brother , you may remain neutral and Jesus dwells in you.
    But if you do hate your brother then question to each of us may rise are we born again are we of God? I believe christians can get mad to brothers and there are cases in bible about this so I believe the "hate" in john means utter rejection and despise , atleast not a favor for what the brother is but ignorance them being brother.

    So in short Born again can love a brother only because they are infact brothers and should thefore do so like the bible says.

    Unbornagain cant as they are not really a family. But can infact hate for what the brother stands for.


    One more verse about this (the difference between being bornagain and not):


    Joh 10:12-14 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (13) The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. (14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    So by this last verse i mean that those who are not born again would not care for God's sheeps as they are hirelings and do not have holy spirit to give them that Godly heart of God's will and compassion and love.
    Last edited by jari; 10-16-11 at 11:36 AM.

  7. #47
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    So in short Born again can love a brother only because they are infact brothers and should thefore do so like the bible says.
    I like this line of thought so I would like to expand on that.
    Born again can love a brother because they are equipped by God to do so.This is how they can be true brothers because they were baptized(immersed) in the same word(water) and the same spirit (fire).

    True baptism is an immersion into God's word.An actual change in environment where the word dominates the five senses.
    A world where the only truth is the word administered through the Spirit.
    Spending time in God's word is spending time in the water.
    After I drown in his word and live by his spirit I will love my brother and all God's lost sheep because the heart of the Father will be my heart.
    His word will be my word because I will know his voice.

    No one can do works(Love and worship in spirit and in truth) until they are clean and no one can get clean without the washing of water.
    You don't get clean to take a bath you take a bath to get clean.

    Get in the water!!!
    Friends are for comfort and protection,
    enemies are for learning perfection

  8. #48
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    Jari: God looks in the heart and saves man and when God chooses you there's a verse in the bible about that saying who can lay a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. I dont think its good and is infact forbidded in bible to judge other peoples salvation, were just told to preach the word and i think most important word here is that Jesus died for us. (and unquestionable christian doctrine)

    But some people try evaluate the genuises of other people's salvation although its only Lord who can see the hearts and what genuines and thoughts and beliefs and undersntanding people have.
    Where in the Bible does it say that it is forbidden to judge whether or not another person is saved?

    Jari: So about the loving brother again... Bible says anyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    So John was stating a criteria of how to know some one is born of God. Yet he also said we should love. Does this mean now that we become born of God when we choose to love? No not according to 1 John 4:19 because He first loved us. Jari, you use the word 'criteria' here, but what is the definition of the word 'criteria'?

    What it means in my opinion is that those who are infact born again have the ability to love and should do so. But should not make any effort to do because that would then be works, right?

    And herefrom we also know the false brothers that cannot love for they are not born of God. How can we know them if it is forbidden to judge whether or not someone is saved?

    Thats the way i see it but i understand some people also believe that our state of being born of God can be nullified but i do not believe so because bible teaches believers are given holy spirit in them at point of conversion That's the way that you interpret it.
    Jari: I believe in unconditional love of God. its not about how much we love Him but about the fact the He first loved us and always will love us more than we can ever love Him.

    We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19

    And I do believe God's love give us the responding love so it's all glory to Him.
    Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART, AND WITH ALL THY SOUL, AND WITH ALL THY MIND.

    Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.

    Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    I John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    I John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    Once, or continually? But that would be works, would it?


    Jari: So once again i ask do we see this so that Jesus wouldnt dwell in you if you choose not to love? Well bible says if you hate brother your a liar about loving God (1 John 4:20). So i believe only born again can love spontaniously and willingfully but everyone also has choise not to love but it does not seem to be the criteria here as long as you dont hate your brother , you may remain neutral and Jesus dwells in you.
    But if you do hate your brother then question to each of us may rise are we born again are we of God? I believe christians can get mad to brothers and there are cases in bible about this so I believe the "hate" in john means utter rejection and despise , atleast not a favor for what the brother is but ignorance them being brother.
    First, there is a big difference between being mad at someone and hating them. Second, Jesus commands us to love one another, not just not hate. I do not see room for neutrality in this commandment.

    Everyone says that they have the Holy Spirit.

    Everyone says that they love others.

    I John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

    We are commanded to do more than talk. Wait, that would lead to works, wouldn't it? But, without these works we can't really verify that we are saved ...? Amazing.
    Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

  9. #49
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    Great post Stickz.
    Couldn't have said it better myself!

    James 2:14 ¶
    What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    Great post Stickz.
    Couldn't have said it better myself!
    Beans.

    What is your point with these verses posted? theres nothing about losing salvation in there, its just that it may look like so when context is forgetten...

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