Yes jean, we should go where we hear truth. I disagree with all demonations are the same they are not. and they do not all worship the True Living God. For one thing the Methodist church believes in abortion and supports it. The Lord has laid convictions on my heart I must follow. His word is my guide and the only truth there is. The Lord says 'BE Holy for I AM Holy" He would not tell us to do something He couldn't do for us. And I believe He is talking about here and now. HE is coming back for a spotless bride. I can live sin free if I nail myself to the cross everyday. I live one day at a time I am not saying I can not fall, yes I can, but I do not have to because Jesus lives inside of me. amen!!!

I praise God everyday for saving a wretch like me.

God Bless jean and all,

in His service,
debbi

So are you saying faithworks, that one church is 'better' than another or just different? The Methodist church, like all (?) churches differ on some things, I personally do not believe in abortion except perhaps as a result of rape or incest. The church gives us guidelines to follow, each life and circumstance decides how we apply those to our own particular situation. I believe God is more forgiving and compassionate than many in the church. However,the church in all its denominations, is made up of fallible people, ministers included. We should go to church to hear the word of God, but read and test it for ourselves. Remembering that those who are sincere in seeking, God's Holy Spirit will guide.
Whats that saying, if you find a perfect church, don't go, you'll spoil it. I think the church as in building, congregation, has much to offer and it is good to worship together. However, I do believe that those who have sat in pews all of their lives and don't know God, He can still touch so we must never give up praying for those who we know in our churches or indeed those outside. I trust this makes some sense.

quote from spiritleded

Because of His omniscience, God knew in advance who would seek relationship with Him through Jesus and those folks are the ones elected to be saved. "Whoever would find God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him diligently." (Hebrews 11:6)

This is not scriptural. the bible does not say that God chose people by looking into the future and seeing what THEY would do. that would mean He chose them because of THEIR works and that isnt what the word says. It says that God made His chosen to be chosen not because of what they would do, or their works but He formed them that way before creation.- He did not respect their persons, He formed that lump of clay to be His chosen, to be conformed into the image of His Son, to bare fruit and be saved.Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?[U]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction[/U]:And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

this shows it was not of who runs or wills but of God who has mercy- and that God prepared them and God formed them to be vessels of honor or dishonor. HE made some fitted for destruction and He made some to show forth His glory. there is no place here for GOD choosing based on what WE WOULD DO in our own works.

the bible also says GOD created the wicked for the day of evil.- fitted for destruction as above





and crzy God is the answer amen

there are a couple problems with calvinism- i agree the first 4 points are correct however in the 5th point it does not take into consideration that God calls some that are not chosen and those called " saved" people fall away because that is Gods plan. It is true He keeps His elect, but that does not make osas true as they teach, it means that the elect WILL bare fruit and they WILL stand by faith to be saved because that is what HE formed them to do, and their baring fruit shows forth who they- the elect- are.

also calvinists say God is soverign but they do not believe Him to soverignly lead them and take care of him and keep his promises to us in their lives. They except no miralces, no provisions, no deliverances that were all provided by jesus and they listen to no dreams which God gives or prophesies etc... so they have cut off the Spirit of God from speaking directly to them inside and along side His word, and from providing the promises that were given to us already at the cross.

Originally Posted by Faith4Bride

. It is true He keeps His elect, but that does not make osas true as they teach, it means that the elect WILL bare fruit and they WILL stand by faith to be saved because that is what HE formed them to do, and their baring fruit shows forth who they- the elect- are.

This is true. OSAS or "once saved always saved' isn't necessarily true the way the contemporary Christian world presents it. You are by no means "once saved" for doing any of the following:

o) Reciting the "sinner's prayer"
o) Raising a hand in church
o) Filling out a card at church
o) Walking the aisle at church
o) Responding somehow at church while emotions are running high due to the organ pulling your heart-strings and the choir repeatedly singing "Just As I am"

What's worse is, many "evangelists" or Christian websites will promise their audience eternal life if they would only repeat the sinner's prayer much like repeating the words of a mantra. That is blasphemy. (a mantra is a mystical phrase that "does something" after you quote it)

You don't need to give someone the right words to say when they are truly convicted by the God of Heaven. They know what to say before a Holy God. They know they are guilty before God's law. They know that they need to confess sins, turn from sin, and put their trust in Jesus.

This is what the Holy Spirit does, and He does so when, where, and how He pleases, like the wind blows (John 3) He will crush your conscience and bring you to repentance.

Rather than the phrase "once saved, always saved", a more Biblically accurate statement would be "once saved, kept saved", or "if saved, always saved"

The people that profess to be saved, or were told they were saved, aren't necessarily saved, but rather the children of God, the elect, are kept saved, by Him, till the last breath, and will never completely fall away from the faith.

also calvinists say God is soverign but they do not believe Him to soverignly lead them and take care of him and keep his promises to us in their lives. They except no miralces, no provisions, no deliverances that were all provided by jesus and they listen to no dreams which God gives or prophesies etc... so they have cut off the Spirit of God from speaking directly to them inside and along side His word, and from providing the promises that were given to us already at the cross.

I disagree with this statement. First of all, you don't need to be a Calvinist to deny the things you put in your paragraph. You simply need to be a regular Christian that believes in one of the "5 Solas" - Sola Scriptura.

Sola scriptura teaches that Scripture ALONE is the revelation of God, and the highest authority. Any outside source of so-called revelation is not to be trusted. Experiences are not to be trusted. Dreams are not to be trusted. Feelings and emotions are not to be trusted. Other books that claim to be Divine, such as the Mormon books, are not to be trusted.

The Bible tells us that the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. (Jer 17:9) ALL things! That means you deceive yourself more than anyone or anything else in the universe. We deceive ourselves more than satan does. Personal feelings and desires, however sincere, are to take a back seat to scripture.

God is True, and His word is not only Truth, but the only truth in this universe. Jesus Himself declares this (John 17:17) Therefore, to rely on extra-Biblical sources as a source of "truth" is to actually rely on shaky ground at best, a lie at worst.

The Bible alone is the source of God's revelation and will. The apostle Peter declared that the written scriptures were more sure than hearing Jesus' audible voice from Heaven!!! (2nd Pet 1:19) That's pretty serious business.

Paul warns us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even if an angel from heaven were to appear to us and preach to us, it takes a back seat to what the Apostles have taught and preached, (and consequently, recorded in Scripture)

1 John 4:1 says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

How do we try the spirits? We go to the standard by which to try them - the Bible of course! Therefore, the Bible is where all authority and truth begins and ends.

Furthermore, to think that God is giving extra-revelation today (in the form of dreams, feelings, experiences, or any other form) is to contradict or deny the warnings in scripture which do not allow for such a thing.

Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Revelations 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Don't add to it, don't take from it. It stands as it is: the perfect and complete will of God in written form.

PS. For those that inquire, the 5 Solas are as follows:

1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Yes, jean, to me abortion is wrong and a sin to kill a unborn child. Why should we go and sit in a box when we get no fellowship what for an hour that is not fellowship to me. In the true church they meet everyday and eat together and shared all things. No body had a need. I do not see this today in the boxes. Yeah, all say we have lives to live and raise our children and jobs. Well, they had kids back in Biblcal times also.
I believe where two are three are gathered in His name that is fellowship. YES, I do believe in meeting with other saints and breaking bread together. I do not have to do that sitting in a box.
Also, in this country so many people once saved always saved and they can live any way they want. WRONG!!! God alone is the author and finisher of my faith and Him alone.

Blessings,
debbi

Originally Posted by Chad

"What is Calvinism and is it Biblical?
What are the five points of Calvinism?"

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized with the letters TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs. Total Depravity = as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

Limited Atonement = Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25). Irresistible Grace = Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16). Perseverance of the Saints = The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

I believe that Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints are Biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. However, I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1.

i think calvanism and the fact that God elects people specifically is the easiest answer to someone who suggests that you can lose your salvation. To concisely explain: ' If God predestines someone, then he cant 'un-predestine' them" The emphasis for salvation is shifted solely onto God.

Originally Posted by hiselect

This is true. OSAS or "once saved always saved' isn't necessarily true the way the contemporary Christian world presents it. You are by no means "once saved" for doing any of the following:

o) Reciting the "sinner's prayer"
o) Raising a hand in church
o) Filling out a card at church
o) Walking the aisle at church
o) Responding somehow at church while emotions are running high due to the organ pulling your heart-strings and the choir repeatedly singing "Just As I am"

What's worse is, many "evangelists" or Christian websites will promise their audience eternal life if they would only repeat the sinner's prayer much like repeating the words of a mantra. That is blasphemy. (a mantra is a mystical phrase that "does something" after you quote it)

You don't need to give someone the right words to say when they are truly convicted by the God of Heaven. They know what to say before a Holy God. They know they are guilty before God's law. They know that they need to confess sins, turn from sin, and put their trust in Jesus.

This is what the Holy Spirit does, and He does so when, where, and how He pleases, like the wind blows (John 3) He will crush your conscience and bring you to repentance.

Rather than the phrase "once saved, always saved", a more Biblically accurate statement would be "once saved, kept saved", or "if saved, always saved"

The people that profess to be saved, or were told they were saved, aren't necessarily saved, but rather the children of God, the elect, are kept saved, by Him, till the last breath, and will never completely fall away from the faith.

I disagree with this statement. First of all, you don't need to be a Calvinist to deny the things you put in your paragraph. You simply need to be a regular Christian that believes in one of the "5 Solas" - Sola Scriptura.

Sola scriptura teaches that Scripture ALONE is the revelation of God, and the highest authority. Any outside source of so-called revelation is not to be trusted. Experiences are not to be trusted. Dreams are not to be trusted. Feelings and emotions are not to be trusted. Other books that claim to be Divine, such as the Mormon books, are not to be trusted.

The Bible tells us that the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. (Jer 17:9) ALL things! That means you deceive yourself more than anyone or anything else in the universe. We deceive ourselves more than satan does. Personal feelings and desires, however sincere, are to take a back seat to scripture.

God is True, and His word is not only Truth, but the only truth in this universe. Jesus Himself declares this (John 17:17) Therefore, to rely on extra-Biblical sources as a source of "truth" is to actually rely on shaky ground at best, a lie at worst.

The Bible alone is the source of God's revelation and will. The apostle Peter declared that the written scriptures were more sure than hearing Jesus' audible voice from Heaven!!! (2nd Pet 1:19) That's pretty serious business.

Paul warns us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even if an angel from heaven were to appear to us and preach to us, it takes a back seat to what the Apostles have taught and preached, (and consequently, recorded in Scripture)

1 John 4:1 says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

How do we try the spirits? We go to the standard by which to try them - the Bible of course! Therefore, the Bible is where all authority and truth begins and ends.

Furthermore, to think that God is giving extra-revelation today (in the form of dreams, feelings, experiences, or any other form) is to contradict or deny the warnings in scripture which do not allow for such a thing.

Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Revelations 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Don't add to it, don't take from it. It stands as it is: the perfect and complete will of God in written form.

PS. For those that inquire, the 5 Solas are as follows:

1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

i would only like to address the second part of this specifically. I will "quote" parts and comment.

"Sola scriptura teaches that Scripture ALONE is the revelation of God, and the highest authority. Any outside source of so-called revelation is not to be trusted. Experiences are not to be trusted. Dreams are not to be trusted. Feelings and emotions are not to be trusted. Other books that claim to be Divine, such as the Mormon books, are not to be trusted."

well sola scriptura is not wholey correct in this way. First of all to say that scritpure ALONE is the revelation of God is not scriptural and never has been. There are many revelations that the bible has told us of, and has said would happen that are not contained in scriptures. For example:Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

here we have a time that vs 31 tells us is just before the DAY OF THE LORD( which is the time of the resurection and wrath in the end) where there will be dreams and prophesy and visions and none of these are described in the bible and yet they are revelations of God and are judged so by the bible. here is another exampleJob 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not. Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

The bible declares that in dreams and visions of the night GOD shows men these things for these reasons. these are personal revelations for Gods purposes. Nowhere in scripture does it ever say this has stopped and even if it had , every dream that God did this with before that is not written in scriptures is still a revelation of God to men.Now it is TRUE that scripture is our highest authoirty and it is by scripture that we test the Spirits and we judge all other things by scripture.No prophesy dream vision etc should be accepted if it is against the word of God.Just because things can be false does not mean nothing is true. So we measure all things by the word of God and if we want further proof of such a thing we ask for a confirmation.

"The Bible tells us that the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. (Jer 17:9) ALL things! That means you deceive yourself more than anyone or anything else in the universe. We deceive ourselves more than satan does. Personal feelings and desires, however sincere, are to take a back seat to scripture."

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be savedEph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; .

In Christ our hearts were circumsied and God makes manifest the truth of our hearts. It is possible in Christ to walk in singleness of heart to have your heart purified and to believe with our hearts. It is true that our hearts can still desire things wrongly and this is why we must always judge all things by the word of God and not just blindly accept things but to say that because the hearts of unbeleivers are continually wicked, God does not show things to born again, renewed men. It should also be mentioned that we do not toss out dreams or visions or prophesy just because of the wickedness of mens hearts, If this were so we would throw away most of the bible that God gave to men by inspiration regardless of their hearts. We do not say " o mens hearts are wicked so we cannot believe anything in the bible that is a dream or vision because we know that God has the power to give these things to men and to have them put into this bible perfectly and He can to do the same things in our lives.So it is true that personal feelings and ideas take a back seat to scripture, not only do they take a back seat but they are to be cast down and replaced with truth in our hearts and minds if they do not align with the word of God, but this does not mean that feelings and emotions and spiritual gifts and dreams and visions cannot be Godly.To take the verse about mens hearts being wicked and apply it broadly to believers and say that is true is to deny the work of Christ in our hearts that circumsied us and wrote the truth on our hearts and made us new creations able to walk in and recieve the things of the Spirit of God!

"God is True, and His word is not only Truth, but the only truth in this universe. Jesus Himself declares this (John 17:17) Therefore, to rely on extra-Biblical sources as a source of "truth" is to actually rely on shaky ground at best, a lie at worst."

God is true and His word is Truth however it is not the only truth in the universe IF you mean that nothing is true if it isnt written in the bible.Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. This does not say that it is the only truth. Now nothing can be true that disagrees with the word that IS true. Never can we say that any dream or vision or whatever is true if it does not agree with the word of God fully but God can and does and always has and declares that He will in the future, speak to men in dreams and visions and prophesy etc etc... This also does not mean that we " rely on extra- biblical sources" we rely on Jesus Christ and the entire word of God, That is our Rock and foundation of truth by which all things are measured and judged but to throw away things that God gives men now because it is not written in the bible is also a problem because God gives these things for a reason.


"The Bible alone is the source of God's revelation and will. The apostle Peter declared that the written scriptures were more sure than hearing Jesus' audible voice from Heaven!!! (2nd Pet 1:19) That's pretty serious business."

To say the bible alone is the source of Gods revelation and will is not true and not scriptural. That is why we are told of the gifts of the Spirit that were given to the body of Christ. If someone were to recieve prophesy or dreams or visions or tongues or word of wisdom or knowledge these are all ways that God revealed things to people including His will and these things are not written down in the bible. So even IF you want to believe that these things are done away with ( which the bible also never says) you still have to admit that every one of these things that God gave to the body before the bible was written were from Him and are not written down in the bible and so this was not the only source. To say that TODAY God cannot speak to people and give any dreams or visions or anything because mens hearts are wicked but in the day of the aposltes and the whole 4000 years before that God did and could is a large problem in your reasoning and a denial of the power of God in our lives to lead us and deal with us indiviudally and keep us from being led astray and to purpose the the leading astray of any that are not His is another problem in your theology if you believe He is soverign.

"Paul warns us in Galatians 1:8-9 that even if an angel from heaven were to appear to us and preach to us, it takes a back seat to what the Apostles have taught and preached, (and consequently, recorded in Scripture)

1 John 4:1 says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

How do we try the spirits? We go to the standard by which to try them - the Bible of course! Therefore, the Bible is where all authority and truth begins and ends."

This is exactly WHY we try the Spirit and judge all things by the word of God and this is why God speaking to people today in whatever way is happening!

"Furthermore, to think that God is giving extra-revelation today (in the form of dreams, feelings, experiences, or any other form) is to contradict or deny the warnings in scripture which do not allow for such a thing."

The bible never says it does not allow for such a thing- the mere fact that this scripture was first given in deut. and the entire rest of the bible was written after that fact, including every dream and vision and prophesy and word of knoweldge and wisdom etc.. etc.. and none of that was wrong. Maybe you could say " but those were meant for the bible" ok well you still have every word Jesus spoke that wasnt written down and is true, and every prophesy and tongue and word of knowledge and wisdom and prophesy that was given to the body of Christ in the day of the aposltes none of which are written down in the bible. These things show that the idea that God cannot speak these days except by His word is false, not to mention prophesy in the bible says He will.

" I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1."

a quote that I would like to adress in two ways.

1) You cannot pick and choose out of the bible, nor can you pick and choose things out of a belief system otherwise things begin to condtradict each other. Just as the Mormon books and belief systems do. You see they claim many things and say other things. And we would be doing the same if we pick and choose the verses we use to prove things in belief systems. We have to take into consideration the Biblical versus in context. Which brings me to my second point.

2) I'll use John 3:16 as my example because of how popular it is and how often it is said .. but misused.

This is not a salvation tool .. this is one of God's fulfilled promises but so often it is pulled out of context..I am going to write it in the new american standard verse and then take it back to the original Greek scripture and then explain each Greek word that could possibly be misinterpreted.

"For God so Loved the World that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whoever Believes in Him should not Perish but have Eternal Life."

"For Theo so Agapao the Kosmos He gave His Monogenes Huios that whoever Pisteuo in Him should not Apollumi but have Aionios Zoe"

Theo: diety or Supreme Divinity.
Agapao: to love
Kosmos: The ADORNING world.
Monogenes: only born
Huios: a son
Pisteuo: to entrust well-being to Christ
Apollumi: to destroy fully, destory, die, lose, mar, perish.
Aionios: perpetual, eternal, forever.
Zoe: life

So lets take it to the BIG mistake everyone makes with this verse. Kosmos (ADORNING WORLD) meaning the chosen or ELECT people only. Therefore Christ died for the elect people's sin alone.


Also Just for the record Calvanism should not be refered to as a religion because it is not a religion it is the truth. It comes straight from the bible in text and Calvan is one of the original leaders in the "church" or in christianity itself therefor he should be looked back onto as a person of great belief in the Bible and in Christ not a starter of another denomination of the Christain faith.

Originally Posted by Meagen

"


Also Just for the record Calvanism should not be refered to as a religion because it is not a religion it is the truth. It comes straight from the bible in text and Calvan is one of the original leaders in the "church" or in christianity itself therefor he should be looked back onto as a person of great belief in the Bible and in Christ not a starter of another denomination of the Christain faith.

Surely you jest, if John Calvin was one of the original leaders in the Church then the Church is not even 500 yrs old.

I refer to the reformed church .. the church that took christianity to its roots...again I stress the Bible. Not so much church.

Actually in my TRUEST OF TRUE hearts when it comes to church: I believe that church should only be used for fellowship and learning..we should not get off into all these denominations and changing of the text to mean something new.. which in turn creates more denomination and quite possibly contridictions in the Bible. When people take it out of context then they change the Bible and therefore change who God is.