Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?

Greetings, Brother Chad, in the precious name of Jesus.

I have read your opening post with very much interest. I am sure you realise some other Christians would not go along with how you understand 144,000 and the tribulation.

First, we must be careful when we speak catagorically of the Tribulation as something in the future. Scripture does not use the words 'The Tribulation' (Please, no-one come back with the old chestnut that the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible; there are different criterium applying.)

Secondly, I believe that The Book of Revelation, must be seen for what it is; not what it is not. It is not recording events sequentially within our human sequential time frame mindset.

Once we try to understand that Almighty God sees everything in a kind of eternally panoramic view i.e., 'all peoples, all things, all ages, all events - past present and future -all at the same time and eternally' then we will grasp a better understanding of what God is saying to us in the Book of Revelation, especially concerning what the 'last days' are and what 'tribulation' is.

Your brother in Jesus.
David

Greetings in the name of Jesus.

This particular topic and the opening post has given me much cause to meditate before the Lord and to seek guidance from Him. The reason being is, my dear brother Chad, I am troubled by your opening post. I have usually got a desire to uplift and encourage others. I have always understood the Book of Revelation as prophesy in kind of spritual picture form - spiritual visions.

The number 144,000 to me represents, a human number to be spiritually discerned - not calcuated, but as 'fully complete and final number' in the same spiritual sense that the number 666 is a human number to be spiritually discerned (by Gods Wisdom) and I would have thought the same spiritual context of the numbers should be consistant, e.g. Revelation 13:18 (RSV) "This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty six." I think too many have tried to apply the same criteria here by trying to 'humanly count' even using other numbers in the Bible to 'fit'.

My belief is, to have a better understanding of Revelation we must view the whole Book thus:

We find John, three times "In the Spirit" God was showing John three different spiritual 'viewing angles' of the the same thing all happening at the same time (forgive my repetition please).

Since the Resurection of Jesus these three things are in operation consequitivly in this present Age

1. Jesus is in His Church - Now.
2. Jesus is in Heaven - Now
3. Jesus is in the final conflict - Now

Compare .....

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number one.
Revelation 1:10 to 3:33. [b]We see Jesus in the Church.[/

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number two.
Revelation 4 to 16:21. We see Jesus in Heaven.

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number three.
Revelation 17:1 to 20-15. Jesus in the final conflict.

All concurrent - not consequitive or sequentially.

Finally and not concurrently, we see in Revelation 21:1 to the end Jesus in the Age to Come. The New Heaven and Earth!

In the Love and Grace of Our Lord
David.

The 144,000 are the remnants of Israel, GOD's chosen one.

What is troubling about this to you? If it was something else your referring to please point it out so we can discuss.

The Bible tells us the 144,000 are the remnants of Israel [faithful children of Israel] during the tribulation.

They are the 12,000 from every tribe of Israel [12 tribles of Israel]

Greetings Brother Chad, in the Name of Jesus.

My reply here is made within the context of my beliefs earlier expressed in this thread.

Firstly, the list of the tribes you listed from Revelation excludes the Tribe of Dan; compare with Ezekiel 48:1 - "Now these are the names of the tribes: From the north end, beside the way of Hethlon to the entrance of Hamath, Hazar Enan at the border of Damascus, northward beside Hamath, (and they shall have their sides east and west), Dan, one portion."

Secondly, your list from Revelation, includes the Tribe of Joseph; compare with Ezekiel 48:1-29 (verse 1 "These are the names of the tribes...") there is no mention of Joseph being a tribe.

I know Joseph recieved a 'double portion' e.g. two sons; Manasseh and Ephraim (Genesis 48:1) both of whom are named as tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 48:4-6).

If we accept Ezekiel's list of tribes, which includes Manassah and Ephraim and your (Revelation) list which includes Joseph we find ourselves with thirteen tribes - not the twelve tribes making up the 12x12000 = 144000. So, as we know the Bible does not contradict itself and is not the source of controversy and confusion - we look, as John did - "in the Spirit" to spiritually discern what the spirit is saying - rather than numbers and mathematics.

Thirdly, you say "The Bible tells us the 144,000 are the remnants of Israel [faithful children of Israel] during the tribulation." The Book of Revelation makes no mention of a 'remnant' or of 'The Tribulation'

Thus your opening post troubles me.

In all this my precious brother Chad, let us, above all, keep our eyes firmly fixed on Jesus and what He commanded us - to Love God - Love each other - and go and spread the Gospel and make disciples.

Yours in Jesus our Lord and Saviour
David

The list that I gave was directly quoted from the Bible itself.

Revelation 7:4-8 shows exactly what I quoted. I do not know what Bible your reading that your comparing Revelation and Ezekiel then explaining that the list I gave is wrong.

How is what I quoted exactly from Scripture being an incorrect list? This makese no sense whatsoever.

Possibly not exactly "remnant" in Revelation but we all know that the 144,000 are a remnant of Israel chosen by GOD [sealed]. The entire Bible goes together, all the books together and not one without the other. Therefore, if you do a search for example (Bible Gateway) for "remnant of Israel" you will see all the verses containing this and coincides with the 12 tribes, again remnant of Israel.

Here is another interesting article that nicely explains the different lists between Ezekiel, Revelation and other parts of the Bible (which clearly I did not contradict at all if you read carefully)

12 Tribes of Israel
The Bible lists the twelve tribes of Israel in several locations: (Genesis 35:23-26; Exodus 1:2-5; Numbers 1:20-43; 1 Chronicles 2:2; Revelation 7:5-8). It is interesting that there are slight differences in some places. The 12 sons of Israel (Jacob) were: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher and Joseph. These were the ancestors of the original twelve tribes. However, Reuben lost his rights as firstborn by defiling Jacob’s bed (Genesis 35:22; 49:3-4). In Reuben and Joseph's place, Joseph’s two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, became tribes of Israel (Genesis 48:5-6). As a result, the twelve tribes became Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh. In some other lists of the twelve tribes of Israel, Levi is not mentioned, presumably because the Levites were assigned to serve at the temple and therefore were not apportioned land of their own in Israel (Joshua 14:3).

Naming the twelve tribes is a confusing task. Revelation 7:5-8 lists the 12 tribes as: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. This is interesting…for the first time Joseph is listed as a tribe along with his son Manasseh. Why isn’t Ephraim listed? Why is Reuben listed, but not Dan? There are no perfect answers to these questions. Technically, there were more than twelve tribes if you count both of Joseph’s sons as tribes in addition to Joseph. Revelation 7 presents a list of 144,000 witnesses from twelve different tribes. It does not say why Ephraim and Dan are not listed. The best answer is that God decided not to choose any witnesses from those two tribes. Some Bible teachers understand Dan being left off the list in Revelation 7 because of what is said in Genesis 49:17, “Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heels so that its rider tumbles backward.”

With all of that said, what are the twelve tribes of Israel? Every list in the Bible contains Simeon, Judah, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin. In addition to those nine tribes, there are Ephraim, Reuben, Joseph, Dan, and Levi. Most Bible teachers would view Ephraim, Dan, and Levi as the additional three to result in twelve tribes. Whatever the case, God is free to re-adjust and re-account the twelve tribes of Israel as He sees fit.

This is very interesting David, can you be more specific on how you have come to this understanding and list the scriptures that have inspired you?

Quote:
The Book of Revelation makes no mention of a 'remnant' or of 'The Tribulation'


Possibly not exactly "remnant" in Revelation but we all know that the 144,000 are a remnant of Israel chosen by GOD [sealed]. The entire Bible goes together, all the books together and not one without the other. Therefore, if you do a search for example (Bible Gateway) for "remnant of Israel" you will see all the verses containing this and coincides with the 12 tribes, again remnant of Israel. Unquote



My brother Chad. Thank you for your considered response.

I am very very familiar with the belief you hold re 144,000. It was once my own, but I have moved on somewhat.

Nowhere else does the Bible refer to the remnant being 144,000 or of them being 12,000 from each tribe, neither are the tribes named from whence the remnant is drawn. It stands in complete solitary isolation in Revelation 7:4-8.

John himself is clear in Revelation 7:4 they are "...sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel..." This is confirmed by Paul and Isaiah in Romans 9:27



"And Isaiah calls out (solemnly cries aloud) over Israel: Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant (a small part of them) will be saved [ from perdition, condemnation, judgment]! (Amplified Bible) see also Isaiah 10:22-23. No mention of 12,000 or 144,000 or names of 'selected' tribes. So the 144,000 remains isolated in Revelation.

Also note they are saved from perdition, condemnation and judgement - no mention of becoming evangelists

Therefore, like anything else than cannot be supported elsewhere in the Bible we must be careful how we treat it.

Before anyone starts number crunching is it essential to understand the symbolism of numbers, words and pictures in Revelation. And not only in Revelation but the whole bible. Please be patient with my lengthiness - it is essential for a proper and full understanding of these things.

Words in Pictures.
We have established that this book is about understanding pictures rather
than understanding words.
We have also said that the book is not confined to any specific period of
history but actually works through six dimensions, past, present, future,
concurrent, re-occurring, and the eternal.
It is important to note now that although there is this incredible flexibility in
this book we cannot make it mean anything we like. There are rules to
understanding this type of literature. It would help enormously if we lived in
the woof and warp of the 1st century, but as we don't, it will be largely an
intellectual exercise to begin with.
Remember the symbol or word picture is there to enlighten not to confuse.
The symbol transgresses normal rules of speech.
You have probably been taught in times gone by in regard to Biblical interpretation,' take it literal unless it absurd.' That actually is highly misleading because there are large amounts of scripture which were never intended to be taken literally, that is directly from word to meaning. The poetry of the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the symbols of Daniel and Revelation, as well as the parables of Jesus are not a matter of' word to meaning' documents, but' word to picture to meaning documents.'
For example. ' Look He is coming with the clouds.' ( 1:7)
This cannot mean the same as, ' Look he is coming with the pizza's,' which
would be its 'word to meaning' understanding. He is not bringing the clouds
as some form of luggage He is carrying.
Its a picture, ' As the clouds come he will come.' It's above, it's spectacular,
and it's visible to all. Look first of all at the picture of approaching clouds,
then interpret the meaning.
There are three elements to a symbol.
1. The actual subject. (the coming of the Lord)
2. The picture that stands in the place of the subject. ( clouds)
3. The points of comparison between the subject and the picture. (above,
spectacular, and visible)
Sometimes no help is required. ' The Lamb as it had been slain.'
Sometimes John helps us with the point of comparison. 1:20. The stars
are.....and the lampstands are.....The picture is ' Lights in the Darkness.'
Sometimes, once a symbol has been identified as above it will retain its
meaning elsewhere unless it is specifically stated. Hence 11:2 must be
understood in the same way. Also there is a picture of striking similarity in
Zechariah4:1-14.
However the white horse and its rider in 6:1 is very different from the white
horse and its rider in 19:11.
Numbers as Pictures.
Another phenomena of Revelation is its use of numbers. Quite clearly they also have a significance and meaning. (13:18) The readers were expected to understand this cryptic clue.

The use of numbers does not however arise from secret meanings of 3, 7, 12 and so on (if you say amen three times it is more powerful than if you say it once is nonsense of course) but from the fact that both Hebrew and Greek had no separate numbering system. The letters were numbers and the numbers were letters. So every word could be turned into a number and many numbers into words. We find this difficult to understand because we have never used such a system.
Look at a simple one to start with. The seven churches. Obviously these were seven literal churches in seven actual cities. Archaeology, history, and literature establish that beyond doubt. Burt there were more than seven churches in the province of Asia. There were at least ten. So why only mention seven. It must be that to mention ten would detract from the symbolism but mentioning seven would clarify the symbolism. What then does the number 'seven' and its multiples convey?
The Essential Nature of Something.
From the seven days of creation, the 4 x seven days of the rise and wane of
the moon, the 36 x seven weeks of human gestation, the seven notes of
music and so on, tell us simply the way things are essentially.
It also bears the idea of completion or fullness. On the seventh day creation
was complete. After twenty eight days the moon is full. After 36 weeks the
mothers time is full. After the seventh note the scale is complete.
So we can say that the phrase, 'seven churches' is a numeric picture that tells us, this is the entire church as it really is in its essential nature. We will see that this works well in all the series of sevens in the book of revelation.
In fact the numbers 4, 7, and 12 all represent different aspects of fullness or completeness.
The number four speaks of the fullness of the earth or the sum total of all thatis terrestrial.
Hence we have ' the four corners of the earth ' meaning the entire planet.
The four 'living creatures' representing all life.
The four 'winds' representing all weather patterns.
5:13 speaks of the worship of every creature to which the four living creatures raise their amen.
Twelve and all its multiples ( 24, 144,000) represent the entirety of the people of God. This symbolism is not difficult to work out from the twelve sons of Jacob, the twelve tribes of Israel, and the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ. The large number implies the ultimate vastness of the redeemed.
Six. This number probably refers to incompleteness as in the phrase, 'six days you may work.....' it is incomplete and therefore falls short of the mark. The 6th seal, trumpet, and bowl all depict divine judgement on mans sin. The Roman numerals in use at the time, i (one), v (5), x (10), I (50), c (100), d(500), all add up to 666. It therefore signified, the entire world ( as it was to John ) has fallen short of Gods standard and will be judged.
Cautionary note.
It is argued that the name Nero amongst others, translated into Hebrew, results in a numeric value of 666. It does, only if you include the title Caesar and then leave one letter out! And why should we translate it into Hebrew? Were Johns' readers in Asia familiar with Hebrew? Anyway Nero was not even his proper name. The number 666 cannot refer to any individual person from ancient or modern .............

Continued in next post.........

..........Continued from last post

times because the possibilities are endless. Different results are obtained depending on whether you use Hebrew or Greek. The result is determined by the spelling, which in a vowel-less language like Hebrew, varies considerably.
The result can be contrived when a person has more than one name. The name you choose to use will determine the result. Be warned, all such attempts are contrived whatever the popular writers say!
Fractions
We cannot impose modern mathematics on the first century. Fractions, such as, the 'fourth' 6:8; and the 'third' 8:7-12; can mean nothing more than limited effect rather than total effect.
From Symbolism to Structure.
Revelation is not a rambling series of visions, it has structure. The structure is obscured by our division of chapters. They do not reveal the structure neither were they part of the early text.
The subject of Revelation is Jesus Christ. It is He who is being revealed. The way we are going to deal with the book turns on an expression John uses four times in order to denote a separate spiritual experience. The phrase is ' In the Spirit.' and it occurs 1:10; 4:1; 17:3; and 21:10. The four section may therefore be seen as follows
1. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ in His Church dealing with his people. (1:10-3;22. )
2. I was in the spirit and saw Christ on His Throne unfolding the course of history. (4:1 -17:2)
3. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ Triumphant in the final conflict. (17:3-21:9)
4. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ Inaugurate the new heavens and the new earth. ( 21:10-22;21 )
In each case the symbolism of location changes.
On Patmos, signifying the church on earth.
In heaven, signifying Christ in heaven
In a desert, signifying the end of human government.
On a great high mountain, signifying the arrival of Kingdom of God in al its
fullness.


With this understanding I am better able to understand what the spirit is saying about the 144,000..........

The Servants are sealed.

This is God's method of ensuring the survival of the People of Witness, ' this is the keeping from the hour of trial.' ( 3:10 ) It is the limitation of Satanic activity, and the ultimate success of His plan of Redemption. It is a seal of Ownership. It is a seal of Authenticity. It is a seal of Covenant.
We need to re-emphasise the ' word picture meaning ' sequence of understanding as we come to the figures of the next verses. If you go from word to meaning you will be looking for 144,000 Jewish believers somewhere which is preposterous.
The numbers speak of fullness or completion. 12 speaks of the entirety of the Covenant people, a s we have noted. The multiplication of 12 to 144, 000 is a picture to give us the idea of enormity and entirety of the triumph of redemption.
The idea of a remnant of every tribe of Israel is immediately expanded to a remnant of every tribe, nation, language and people from the entire world. ( 5:9; 7:9;) The division between the sealed and the unsealed is understood in the same way as the division between the ' earth dwellers and the people of the testimony.' It also indicates that the roots of our faith and testimony are in God's Covenants with the Jewish people. Its not that the Jewish people have been immersed in the church and lost their national identity, but the church has found her roots in Gods Covenants with Israel.
John hears the voices of angels calling out this sealing process but when his vision clears he does not see 144,000 people at all. Instead he sees a multitude that no one could number. I think this makes it clear that the 144,000 is a picture of the vast multitude of the redeemed that will triumph in the face of Satanic opposition
The Great Multitude appears around the throne.
It is the plan of redemption to bring from every nation, tribe, language and people men and women to their eternal destiny. This is the purpose of the contents of the scroll.
The Multitude are identified.
We are then taken once again to the sacred precincts of the Throne. We are
aware of the Throne, the Lamb, the Living Beings, and the elders. But in
addition we now see this vast company of the redeemed are now also placed
around the Throne.
Who are they, where did they come from?'
Its a rhetorical question, the answer is known. It is asked to show the
incredible nature of the event, and that against all the odds the redeemed
have come through the trial and proceeded to the throne of God.
'These are they...' These are the ones for whom the scroll was written and
whose redemption it foretold.

Your brother in Jesus
David

This is very interesting David, can you be more specific on how you have come to this understanding and list the scriptures that have inspired you? - Jiggyfly

Greeting in Jesus' Name.

I don't know if my most recent post(s) clarify things or not. I will be very happy to give you any further info.

David.