Originally Posted by Laudite

an Apology from a pro-choice Christian

First, let me say that we agree on one very important fundamental- abortion is a terrible tragedy, a great source of sadness for both God and men, and a thing which ought happen as little as possible.

Now let me add two truths-

First- there is not an absolute prescription against murder, and not useful to judge murderers. There are different levels of moral culpability and tragedy. A rapist who gets caught and shoots an entire family is probably more evil than a SWAT sniper who kills a man about to set off a bomb. I am not making a parallel in moral terms between these things- but am instead making the point that there is a difference between God- who equally is hurt by the death of all His children, and legal, even canonical, responsibility. It is for this reason that there are Christian soldiers, prison wardens, and politicians. The fact is that our legal system in some situations countenances murder. The legal argument, then, while far from sound, must be confronted on legal terms in my opinion.

Second- the policy argument is even stronger. The only acceptable goal of public policy in this area is to minimize the number of abortions actually performed. There is strong evidence that banning abortion not only does not significantly reduce the number of abortions performed- but may increase the total number of abortions. It is a certainty that more people die and suffer horribly because of back ally unsafe abortions when it is unlawful. Statistically, education, dealing with poverty, and decreasing crime all have profound effects on abortion rates- far more than banning it. The best we can do, then, is to have a legal system that is pro-choice- where any woman can choose to have an abortion- but none (or as few as possible) do so. That is how I'm a pro choice christian.

IMO, this makes no sense. How can you be for something that makes God very sad? I understand that if it were illegal girls would be getting abortions illegally...but I still can't support the legalization of murder.

Originally Posted by Laudite

an Apology from a pro-choice Christian

First, let me say that we agree on one very important fundamental- abortion is a terrible tragedy, a great source of sadness for both God and men, and a thing which ought happen as little as possible.

Now let me add two truths-

First- there is not an absolute prescription against murder, and not useful to judge murderers. There are different levels of moral culpability and tragedy. A rapist who gets caught and shoots an entire family is probably more evil than a SWAT sniper who kills a man about to set off a bomb. I am not making a parallel in moral terms between these things- but am instead making the point that there is a difference between God- who equally is hurt by the death of all His children, and legal, even canonical, responsibility. It is for this reason that there are Christian soldiers, prison wardens, and politicians. The fact is that our legal system in some situations countenances murder. The legal argument, then, while far from sound, must be confronted on legal terms in my opinion.

Second- the policy argument is even stronger. The only acceptable goal of public policy in this area is to minimize the number of abortions actually performed. There is strong evidence that banning abortion not only does not significantly reduce the number of abortions performed- but may increase the total number of abortions. It is a certainty that more people die and suffer horribly because of back ally unsafe abortions when it is unlawful. Statistically, education, dealing with poverty, and decreasing crime all have profound effects on abortion rates- far more than banning it. The best we can do, then, is to have a legal system that is pro-choice- where any woman can choose to have an abortion- but none (or as few as possible) do so. That is how I'm a pro choice christian.

Yes that's why your pro- choice...

My reason for being pro- life is because when I look in the mirror I thank God, for my mom caring more about me and not herself or her circumstance.

I thank God for his love and grace, because he is the giver of life.

God is life....

The wages of sin is death...last time I checked being conceived is not a sin

People can make mistakes..I can not judge them or condemn them..because my heavenly father forgives and shows mercy. I choose to walk in his light and his ways, therefore I extend a shoulder or an ear for those who had abortions.. But I'm not interested in man's philosophy on morals


I am a member of a couple of Christian and non christian Prolife groups..

A woman has a right..why can a child have a right also..just because by man's definition a fetus is nothing..God see's more than a spot of blood.

I am the voice for those who have no voice.

Abortion is a form of genocide....

Since January 22, 1973 over 50,000,000 babies have had their voices silenced through surgical abortion in this nation alone.

Over 4,000 children have their lives taken each day in the name of choice.

Over 4,000 women are emotionally damaged every day.
Pro-Life Day of Silent Solidarity

Originally Posted by emily445455

IMO, this makes no sense. How can you be for something that makes God very sad? I understand that if it were illegal girls would be getting abortions illegally...but I still can't support the legalization of murder.

There's a distinction between being for abortion and being pro-choice. The thing that I think few people get is that there's broad consensus that abortions are bad. It might be far more productive to give up the fight for a ban and form a coalition for things that have strong, statistically proven records for decreasing the number of abortions such as sex education and alleviating poverty. In any case- there is strong evidence to suggest that the legal status of abortions doesn't significantly alter the number of annual abortions. This is true both of extrapolation of legalization numbers in the US and data from when poland banned abortions.

I'll put it to you this way- I think God does not care a whit if you change the law and ban all abortion. The only account is how many women and fetuses you've helped. The sad thing is that a reframing of the debate and change of objectives could change 'abortion' from a legal issue that cripples and deadlocks the country into a fight to end abortion that all Americans could enthusiastically support.

Just something to think about- I agree with all of your points, rizen (well, maybe not genocide- genocide requires intent to annihilate a group of people- no one advocates annihilating all fetuses, to my knowledge) I just don't see how being pro life has any realistic chance of stopping abortions. If abortion truly is so terrible, doesn't stopping it justify whatever politics are most effective?

Originally Posted by Laudite

There's a distinction between being for abortion and being pro-choice. The thing that I think few people get is that there's broad consensus that abortions are bad. It might be far more productive to give up the fight for a ban and form a coalition for things that have strong, statistically proven records for decreasing the number of abortions such as sex education and alleviating poverty. In any case- there is strong evidence to suggest that the legal status of abortions doesn't significantly alter the number of annual abortions. This is true both of extrapolation of legalization numbers in the US and data from when poland banned abortions.

I'll put it to you this way- I think God does not care a whit if you change the law and ban all abortion. The only account is how many women and fetuses you've helped. The sad thing is that a reframing of the debate and change of objectives could change 'abortion' from a legal issue that cripples and deadlocks the country into a fight to end abortion that all Americans could enthusiastically support.

Just something to think about- I agree with all of your points, rizen (well, maybe not genocide- genocide requires intent to annihilate a group of people- no one advocates annihilating all fetuses, to my knowledge) I just don't see how being pro life has any realistic chance of stopping abortions. If abortion truly is so terrible, doesn't stopping it justify whatever politics are most effective?

I just want to stop seeing babies getting murdered. I don't really care about all the politics behind it, I just want the murder to stop :(

Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Look at the numbers...50,000,000 babies , you don't have to be a voice for these victims but some of us choose to...

But what I find very silly, when a man kill his wife and unborn baby..he is charged with 2 counts of murder...such hypocrisy.. I guess its ok to kill the baby once its the mother holding the knife.

Abortion...sorry I mean Family Planning is a form of genocide...a camouflage form I must say.

The only reason abortion is seen as ok..was when it was first introduced they had to change the meaning of fetus..it was no longer seen as human. Now man has put themselve above God to say where life begins....

I am prochoice...
I believe women have the choice to keep their legs closed.
I believe women have the choice to not have sex before marriage.
I believe women have the choice to be more responsible when sexually active.

I believe a fetus...should have the choice to breathe
I believe a fetus...should have the choice to speak out.
I believe a fetus..should have a choice to live.

This might be hard to believe but there are alot of Pro life groups...not all christians, and we will have the victory...even if abortion is legal, if we can prevent one girl from entering that butcher Mill aka abortion mill...our job was done.

It takes one voice...

How many undocumented deaths are there on mothers who didn't make it through, the procedure...How many women suffer mental health issues after having an abortion.
How many women are hurt medically due to an abortion.

The numbers are not going to be made public, because its politics over life. Morals out the door.

If anyone knows the History, please share who or what type of people was abortion meant for, also does the fact that most abortion mills are in poor neighborhoods say anything...When I was in NY, in queens and brooklyn I saw many mills, travelled into Long island there was none seen..( I'm sure they have though )

Choice is the face of evil through our History books.....
the Holocaust...religious choice

lynchings of Afro-Americans and Native Americans exterminated ..Racial choice

Killing of unborn babies...Reproductive choice

Originally Posted by rizen1

[COLOR="Black"]Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Eh... and in putting aside those terms you give up the key ground in the battle and doom yourself to failure. Yes, it's murder- now what are you going to do about it?

Rizen1:

I think that the statement "Un-Christlike Christians hate conflict more than they hate evil" needs to be re-worded so that it begins with "Un-Christlike people..." I don't disagree with the point you are making; it's just that, in truth, there is no such thing as an un-Christlike Christian.

"Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to your garage makes you a car." (Billy Sunday)

SLE

Originally Posted by SpiritLedEd

Rizen1:

I think that the statement "Un-Christlike Christians hate conflict more than they hate evil" needs to be re-worded so that it begins with "Un-Christlike people..." I don't disagree with the point you are making; it's just that, in truth, there is no such thing as an un-Christlike Christian.

"Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than going to your garage makes you a car." (Billy Sunday)

SLE

Well for one I can't edit someone else's work but I believe, it was meant to be an oxymoron. But I do understand.

Laudite Quote:
Originally Posted by rizen1
Please lets put aside all the philosophy, physcology and political correctness terms and phrases...and see abortion for what it is...Murder.

Eh... and in putting aside those terms you give up the key ground in the battle and doom yourself to failure. Yes, it's murder- now what are you going to do about it?

Being a voice for those who don't have any, talking to people like you ( pro- choice ) prayer and fast, meeting with people and giving up my voice( duct taping "LIFE " to my mouth )
To name a few.

Laudite, I'm a bit suprise you didn't respond to anything I wrote, but asked a question. Did you read any of my posts ?

Because you would have read this and not asked that question.

rizen
I am a member of a couple of Christian and non christian Prolife groups

From your own words

Yes, it's murder

I'm happy we are at common grounds that abortion is murder..thank you

God bless.

My question isn't a personal press, rather it's meant to propose a focus on action. Being in groups and protesting and such is action, certainly. What I'm questioning is the effectiveness of that action. Does your personal experience show that those techniques are very effective? The statistical data shows that overall they're pretty ineffective. The majority of your posts have been about how outrageous abortions are. Yelling the outrageousness of abortion will change some minds- but not enough. You have to put as much thought into the right action as to your consideration of the evil. The outrage of people such as yourself is not useful for two reasons. First, biblically Romans 2 tells us that outrage is sinful and cuts us off from the Lord. A more biblical approach is to love the sinner and help them to avoid sin. It seems like protesting at clinics is a bit like screaming at a man in debt not to sell his car for money. It would probably be much more effective to help the man avoid debt in the first place, if you want him not to sell his car. Second, this sort of outrage is encouraged and appropriated by politicians. It is very good at polarizing and bringing out the far right to vote- not so great with any other portion of the electorate. If politicians really cared about abortions they could pass laws on sex education and poverty reduction that could prevent thousands of abortions and be passed with no objection. Instead they focus on ineffective and controversial restrictions that have minimal effect on the overall happening of abortion. The court isn't going to overturn roe v wade- the wink and nudge nominations obscure a basic fact. Cheif Justice Roberts oblique assurances are less instructive than his writings about the need for stare decisis and judicial legitimacy. Overturning roe would destroy the legitimacy and authority of the court for a generation- perhaps Scalia will do it, but there's no chance of a majority.

So- the question boils down to this: I'll stipulate to abortion being murder. I find that I have an obligation to act to prevent as much murder as possible. If murder being legal results in less murder, isn't that not just justifiable but the most moral course of action? To put it in different terms, there was a man beset by bandits on the road to the city...

*sobsob* really meaningful. It really bring tears to me where nowadays people can just simply go to any clinics, give a sum of money, and there goes their fetus. The act is definately wrong, and many consequences can occur from there, such as to the mother's health and a lot more. By abortion, ppl now can simply act, without thinking about the concequences of the act. Thus, there's where random sexual activities are widely spread!