Very close. As stated in the first post and mine, and supported by such verses we believe both faith AND works are necessary. And yes that is opposed to the teaching that faith alone saves us.

It is not works that saves us. It is by faith.

Eph.2.8
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"


Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.

If the 'catholic' system is not at fault for its false teaching, then why does it have its own version of scripture? Why does it have its own name "catholic" and not its bible called "catholic bible"? Why does it have its popes with the strange looking golden cone headwear and the long traditional masses? Is the original, infallible Word of GOD as we know it to be the Holy Bible not good enough for you?

Why are such catholics so hardcore about being catholic that one cannot accept the Holy Bible as it is but comes here for example, to defend catholics and accuse for example, my first post of being illegitimate?

Read this for more information: http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-chat/...-catholic.html

Is this last set of questions posed in order that the answers build common understanding, peace and a better witness for Christ?

If not, then DrBubbaLove would be a fool to attempt to answer them.

Chad,
Peace brother. First, did not call your post illegitimate and if you took my response that way it was not intended. What I said basically was the writer of that book you quoted was presenting a strawman of some Catholic beliefs and then beating up the strawman rather than what Catholic believe.

As for accusations, it looked to me like it was all coming my way rather than in other directions, but that seems to be the norm towards Catholics on many forums so am rather use to that.

My understanding of the original post was; here is what Catholics believe and this is why they are wrong. Just trying to point out that what was presented as Catholic beliefs was in error, so the author's conclusions as to why we are wrong is erroneous.

If you want to ask question on particulars we should probably start more threads as there is too much being asked to throw under this single thread banner. And it is usually helpful to everyone else all to stick to a single general topic inside each thread.

Thanks for the input Lady,
Did not mean to turn this thread into a defense of either faith or faith plus works, which is why I acknowledged that faith and works is a part of our belief and one that opposes those that believe in faith alone. While we could discuss it here, would think a detailed discussion would be better in a different thread.
Am curious though how you see Christian denominations arising from a non-Christian cult.

Ok DrBubba...thank you for your response and humility to say the least. Usually people have issues in maintaining humility.

Talk Jesus is solely about Jesus Christ and His Word, GOD's Word which is the one and only Holy Bible. Its not about other doctrines, denominations. It is about teaching the Truth as the Word does while in this process it exposes false doctrines.

Now, my rules and motives here is not about putting people down, but to teach them Truth as GOD provided in the Word. As I said, it exposes deceitful doctrines and false preaching / preachers in the process as a result anyway. If for example my threads about Catholics being a bad system, a false doctrine is hateful towards Catholic believers, that must also mean I hate my family who are entirely without a single doubt hardcore Christians. Would this make sense? No, and I always make it clear my family background and catholic upbringing so people know where I come from and the motive is clear: love and teaching.

All in all, in the end we are reaching out to those deceived and/or exposed to false teaching.

I would appreciate if you do answer my last questions.

I agree 100% with his article, as everyone in this thread does too. You are the only one who comes out admitting you are catholic and showing disagreement on the article. This is why I am waiting your response to my questions. If they are left unanswered, then the silence would speak for itself.

ahh good post ladylovesJesus!

I never knew that about James and Paul. Awesome writers those two were though, I love Paul's stuff.



Peace and God Bless!
-Eric

Thank you dear brother. Yes they were good writers. Glad to know you also have learnt something new from a posting on here.

God bless you. :rainbow: :rose:

I think that there is a strong emphasis on the teaching of the roman catholic church. I will not call it the "Church", anymore. I have left the false doctrine and I am aware of the false doctrines of the roman catholic church. Chad, Euphoric Forest and I have been through the school system the mass and traditions that are purely man made.

I too come from a family of catholics and I love them deeply. But they are not being accountable for their actions before God and continue to err in the sight of God. When speaking to my Father about false doctrine, he said "it is not the church, it's the people". Well the people are being held accountable now and will be held accountable before our Lord Jesus Christ.

The roman catholic church has done exactly what Jesus warned us not to do and that is make up man made doctrine.

I have to put all of the text from Matthew 23, because it all relates to the anger Jesus had over false teaching. Jesus is so simple and kind, so loving and real, so caring and willing for us to be His. I love being a non denominational Christian and just allowing the Word of God to work in me. God is beautiful and He can't stand having ceremony being conducted before His eyes or even to have saints and angels "immortilized". My biggest fear is that maybe all the saints and angels and apostles did become "catholic". Poor Jesus, if that happened to Him.

Anyway, here is Matthew 23: Jesus is wonderful. He fills us with His glory. He is the only Begotten Son of God and our Salvation, our Saviour.

Matthew 23
Seven Woes

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"

Not only was Jesus our Lord and Saviour, He was a prophet too and I truly believe His prophecy is about the roman catholic church. Not too far off from the ceremonial traditions of the Jews.

Let the Word speak to you. Open your heart. He is here.
Amen:Pixie :sun: :rainbow: