VIII. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons

A. Matt. 28:19

1. "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26
2. The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
3. Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16
4. "Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."
2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16
b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16
c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48
d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God

C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons

1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

D. Jesus is not God the Father

1. Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).
2. John 10:30

a. Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
b. The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons.
c. The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).

3. John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority).
4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father."
5. John 14:6-11

a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.
b. Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father."
c. The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father.
7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation

1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
2. The Son created all things: Col 1, John 1:2
3. Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34
5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58
7. The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20
8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge

a. We are all "in God's mind" before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.
2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.
6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?

a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

IX. Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity

A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture.

1. One God
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally).

B. The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29.
C. Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity.

X. What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make?

A. Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26.
B. Mystery: The triune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18.
C. Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
E. Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: John 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.
G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.
H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.
I. Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: John 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17.
J. Truth: All those who wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 17; 15:26; 16:13.

Ecclesiastes 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Revelation 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church. It was and is the original Church. It is the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter, the Rock:

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic Church clearly follows scripture in teaching that we are saved through a combination of faith and works:

(James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

(Matthew 5:20 DRB) For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 7:21 DRB) Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 10:22 DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

(Matthew 10:32 DRB) Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.

(Matthew 10:38 DRB) And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

(Matthew 10:42 DRB) And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you he shall not lose his reward.

(Matthew 12:37 DRB) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

(Matthew 16:27 DRB) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

(Matthew 18:3 DRB) And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 19:20 DRB) The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
(Matthew 19:21 DRB) Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

(Matthew 21:43 DRB) Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

(Matthew 24:13 DRB) But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

(Mark 9:36 DRB) And taking a child, he set him in the midst of them. Whom when he had embraced, he saith to them:
(Mark 9:37 DRB) Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name receiveth me. And whosoever shall receive me receiveth not me but him that sent me.

(Mark 10:15 DRB) Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it.

(Mark 10:17 DRB) And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man, running up and kneeling before him, asked him: Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting?
(Mark 10:18 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.
(Mark 10:19 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, bear not false witness, do no fraud, honour thy father and mother.
(Mark 10:20 DRB) But he answering, said to him: Master, all these things I have observed from my youth.
(Mark 10:21 DRB) And Jesus, looking on him, loved him and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee. Go, sell whatsoever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

(Mark 10:29 DRB) Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
(Mark 10:30 DRB) Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

(Luke 6:22 DRB) Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you and shall reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
(Luke 6:23 DRB) Be glad in that day and rejoice: for behold, your reward is great in heaven, For according to these things did their fathers to the prophets.

(Luke 6:46 DRB) And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

(Luke 18:18 DRB) And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life?
(Luke 18:19 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.
(Luke 18:20 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.
(Luke 18:21 DRB) Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth.
(Luke 18:22 DRB) Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

(John 8:51 DRB) Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

(Romans 11:22 DRB) See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(2 Timothy 2:11 DRB) A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
(2 Timothy 2:12 DRB) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
(2 Timothy 2:13 DRB) If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

(Philippians 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Sola Scriptura is false as is proven by the following verse in scripture:

(2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Also Protestants, how do you explain the following 10 passages from scripture?

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Matthew 16:19 DRB) And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

(1 Timothy 3:15 DRB) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

(2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

(1 Peter 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

(John 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(John 6:53 DRB) (6:54) Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

(John 6:54 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
(John 6:55 DRB) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
(John 6:56 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
(John 6:57 DRB) As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
(John 6:58 DRB) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
(John 6:66 DRB) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
(John 6:67 DRB) Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

(1 Corinthians 11:27 DRB) Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

(James 5:14 DRB) Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
(James 5:15 DRB) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

(Colossians 1:24 DRB) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

(James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

God Bless,
Holly

Originally Posted by spirit1st

Mary is gone forever! When she died , that is her flesh! It went back to the earth it came from! !Any prayers to her are useless!

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Nothing is left of the old us ! Once our bodies die! We are indeed NEW CREATURES 100!


Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

few understand salvation! one reason is we love these bodies?

they are part of the earth , made from the dust of this planet!
The planet is dying because of being defiled by sin!
our bodies are dying because of being defiled by sin!
We [the spirit born of GOD] NEVER DIE because of no sin!
GOD makes us a brand NEW BEING at Salvation! A heavenly being! But still dwelling in a earthly body!

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly

You see !WE are living here on earth NOW though our inner man! That is the Only part that has SALVATION!
Because the NEW CREATURE HE makes us is PERFECT , without Sin1
The flesh part is a sinner !WE are NOT!


Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This post was an AWESOME POST !!!!!

thank you.

Originally Posted by Dreamer

This is clear and simple information; thank you for providing this, Chad. I learned a lot.

the new testament tends to say something like faith/love/charity without works is worthless and works without faith/love is worthless or vanity.

i can't pinpoint the verses, but let the reader understand.

i believe in the bible, and i don't label myself anything other than a believer of the truth, the way, and the life. i think in acts the greeks called them christians, but the apostles never called themselves christians, i dont think. so there isn't really a true label other than a believer of the way imo.

i believe that merely believing on Jesus Christ, son of God, raised from the dead, might get me into heaven, but it does in fact require some good works through faith

Originally Posted by Chad

The most crucial problem with the Roman Catholic Church is its belief that faith alone in Christ is not sufficient for salvation.

The Bible clearly and consistently states that receiving Jesus Christ as Savior, by grace through faith, grants salvation (John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10,13; Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Roman Catholic Church rejects this. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that a person must believe in Jesus Christ AND be baptized AND receive the Eucharist along with the other sacraments AND obey the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church AND perform meritorious works AND not die with any mortal sins AND etc., etc., etc.

Catholic divergence from the Bible on this most crucial of issues, salvation, means that yes, Catholicism is a false religion. If a person believes what the Catholic Church officially teaches, he/she will not be saved. Any claim that works or rituals must be added to faith in order for salvation to be achieved is a claim that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to fully purchase our salvation.

While salvation by faith is the most crucial issue, in comparing Roman Catholicism with the Word of God, there are many other differences and contradictions as well. The Roman Catholic Church teaches many doctrines that are in disagreement with what the Bible declares. These include apostolic succession, worship of saints or Mary, prayer to saints or Mary, the pope / papacy, infant baptism, transubstantiation, plenary indulgences, the sacramental system, and purgatory. While Catholics claim Scriptural support for these concepts, none of these teachings have any solid foundation in the clear teaching of Scripture. These concepts are based on Catholic tradition, not the Word of God. In fact, they all clearly contradict Biblical principles.

In regards to the question “Are Catholics saved?”, this is a more difficult question to answer. It is impossible to give a universal statement on the salvation of all members of any denomination of Christianity. Not ALL Baptists are saved. Not ALL Presbyterians are saved. Not ALL Lutherans are saved. Salvation is determined by personal faith in Jesus alone for salvation, not by titles or denominational identification. Despite the unbiblical beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church, there are genuine believers who attend Roman Catholic churches. There are many Roman Catholics who have genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

However, these Catholic Christians are believers despite what the Catholic Church teaches, not because of what it teaches. To varying degrees, the Catholic Church teaches from the Bible and points people to Jesus Christ as the Savior. As a result, people are sometimes saved in Catholic churches. The Bible has an impact whenever it is proclaimed (Isaiah 55:11). Catholic Christians remain in the Catholic Church out of ignorance of what the Catholic Church truly stands for, out of family tradition and peer pressure, or out of a desire to reach other Catholics for Christ.

At the same time, the Catholic Church also leads many people away from a genuine faith relationship with Christ. The unbiblical beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church have often given the enemies of Christ opportunity to blaspheme. The Roman Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus Christ established. It is not a church that is based on the teachings of the Apostles (as described in the Book of Acts and the New Testament epistles). While Jesus’ words in Mark 7:9 were directed towards the Pharisees, they accurately describe the Roman Catholic Church, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”

...more reading and understanding

The Catechism pronounces that, as the one true church, those who are baptized into the Catholic church are assured of heaven:

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..." Pg. 320, #1257

In the United States, that means 25 percent of the population, or over 60 million people, are headed for heaven.

In many other countries, ninety percent or more of the population is Catholic, meaning nine out of every ten people will pass through the pearly gates. Worldwide, Catholicism claims nearly one billion members.
You may not believe that nearly a billion people could be wrong, but look what Jesus said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14

According to Jesus, the masses willingly accept false religious systems that lead to destruction, while few find true salvation that leads to heaven. Could 60 million Americans be considered "few?" Would anyone say that one billion people world-wide is a "few?"

When Jesus walked the earth, a small minority followed Him. Most rejected his teachings and remained in the well established, socially accepted religions. In other words, they rejected the truth so they could keep their religious traditions. Jesus spoke the following words to those who did this:

"...Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mark 7:9

While Jesus was preaching, one listener who began to comprehend this truth asked Jesus:

"Lord, are there few that be saved? And he (Jesus) said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:23-24

When Jesus taught his disciples to go out and preach the gospel, he said:

"The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;" Matthew 9:37

In other words, most people are lost and need a Savior, but few have the truth to go and tell them.


Conclusion

Throughout this book, every Catholic doctrine has violated God's Word. Yet millions of Catholics ignore God's instructions and continue following the traditions of men, claiming to be right because they are in a religious majority. Jesus warns:

"...whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man... And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man..." Matthew 7:24, 26

Does God consider you a wise or foolish person? If you believe you can ignore God's commands because you are in a religious majority, you need to read Matthew 7:24-26 again.

Jesus gives another warning to the majority who have disregarded God's Word and are counting on earning their salvation through good works:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:22-23

How is it that so many Catholics can call Jesus their Lord, yet totally disregard His instructions? Jesus asked that very same question in His Word:

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46

You can ignore this question now, but what will you say when Jesus asks you the same question in person when you die and stand before Him for judgment?

It seems that you are bashing the Catholic faith....and the vibe I am feeling is that catholics are not welcome here. I am catholic and what you quoted/posted is not entirely true and it is offensive. It sounds very much like you are judging both catholics and their faith.

I have attended many non-denominational bible studies and we are all there for three reasons...to spend time with Jesus, to read, learn, pray and share about scripture and to fellowship with other christians. I have many friends who belong to protestant faiths and we do not attack one anothers beliefs.

and if I may.....catholics "dont" worship Mary or saints. That statement is untrue. They are intercessories. Jesus provided us with helpers because he couldnt be everywhere. It is clear that you dont understand that concept. Transubstantiation....what is the misunderstanding with that? We are told by Jesus during the last supper to eat of His body and drink his blood...and if we do that, then He will remain in us and we shall remain in Him. The bread and wine is transformed at every mass during communion for that exact purpose.

Originally Posted by Holly3278

The Catholic Church is the one, true Church. It was and is the original Church. It is the Church that was founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter, the Rock:

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic Church clearly follows scripture in teaching that we are saved through a combination of faith and works:

(James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

(Matthew 5:20 DRB) For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 7:21 DRB) Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 10:22 DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

(Matthew 10:32 DRB) Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.

(Matthew 10:38 DRB) And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

(Matthew 10:42 DRB) And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you he shall not lose his reward.

(Matthew 12:37 DRB) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

(Matthew 16:27 DRB) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

(Matthew 18:3 DRB) And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 19:20 DRB) The young man saith to him: All these have I kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?
(Matthew 19:21 DRB) Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

(Matthew 21:43 DRB) Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

(Matthew 24:13 DRB) But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

(Mark 9:36 DRB) And taking a child, he set him in the midst of them. Whom when he had embraced, he saith to them:
(Mark 9:37 DRB) Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name receiveth me. And whosoever shall receive me receiveth not me but him that sent me.

(Mark 10:15 DRB) Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it.

(Mark 10:17 DRB) And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man, running up and kneeling before him, asked him: Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting?
(Mark 10:18 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.
(Mark 10:19 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, bear not false witness, do no fraud, honour thy father and mother.
(Mark 10:20 DRB) But he answering, said to him: Master, all these things I have observed from my youth.
(Mark 10:21 DRB) And Jesus, looking on him, loved him and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee. Go, sell whatsoever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

(Mark 10:29 DRB) Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
(Mark 10:30 DRB) Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

(Luke 6:22 DRB) Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you and shall reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
(Luke 6:23 DRB) Be glad in that day and rejoice: for behold, your reward is great in heaven, For according to these things did their fathers to the prophets.

(Luke 6:46 DRB) And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

(Luke 18:18 DRB) And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life?
(Luke 18:19 DRB) And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.
(Luke 18:20 DRB) Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.
(Luke 18:21 DRB) Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth.
(Luke 18:22 DRB) Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.

(John 8:51 DRB) Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.

(Romans 11:22 DRB) See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(2 Timothy 2:11 DRB) A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
(2 Timothy 2:12 DRB) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
(2 Timothy 2:13 DRB) If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

(Philippians 2:12 DRB) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Sola Scriptura is false as is proven by the following verse in scripture:

(2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Also Protestants, how do you explain the following 10 passages from scripture?

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Matthew 16:19 DRB) And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

(1 Timothy 3:15 DRB) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

(2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

(1 Peter 3:21 DRB) Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

(John 20:23 DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(John 6:53 DRB) (6:54) Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

(John 6:54 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
(John 6:55 DRB) For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
(John 6:56 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.
(John 6:57 DRB) As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
(John 6:58 DRB) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
(John 6:66 DRB) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
(John 6:67 DRB) Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

(1 Corinthians 11:27 DRB) Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

(James 5:14 DRB) Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
(James 5:15 DRB) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

(Colossians 1:24 DRB) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

(James 2:24 DRB) Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

God Bless,
Holly

great verses...nicely stated....I just posted in regards to this forum but I am awaiting approval...let's see if it gets put up.

transubstantiation....
(John 6:56 DRB) He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. This is right from the bible people

Welcome Holly, I lovingly disagree. I am a trained Historian from Madonna Univeristy. But, for the sake of discussion please explain exactly phrase by phrase what you see these verses teaching in the flow of the Books of Ephesians 2:8-10, and in Hebrews 12:2

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By "flow of the books" think of a book and chapter outline.

God Bless
Daniel

putting my two cents worth in

Holly, i must disagree with you based on your usage of the term 'Catholic'. rather your mis-usage of the name. the fact is that the term catholic was used by the early church fathers but never implied the sect of christianity that is the Catholic church. there was a time when the church was catholic that is to say universal but the Catholic church has very specific origins. there was a time when there were no popes, no priesthood (as practiced by the Catholic church), and no Apostolic See. there was only the one body called to be a kingdom of priests to the Lord their God. the church is catholic and the Catholic church is a part of it

be blessed

Originally Posted by summerbreeze

Jesus provided us with helpers because he couldnt be everywhere. It is clear that you dont understand that concept.

Wow, I beg to differ who understands or does not understand the "concept"

What is obviously clear by your statement is that you don't understand who Jesus is at all.



Psalm 139


For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O Lord, you have searched me

and you know me.

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;

you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;

you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue

you know it completely, O Lord.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;

you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?

Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;

if I make my bed in the depths,a you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,

if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,

your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me

and the light become night around me,”

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;

the night will shine like the day,

for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

your works are wonderful,

I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you

when I was made in the secret place.

When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book

before one of them came to be.

17 How precious tob me are your thoughts, O God!

How vast is the sum of them!

18 Were I to count them,

they would outnumber the grains of sand.

When I awake,

I am still with you.

19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!

Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

20 They speak of you with evil intent;

your adversaries misuse your name.

21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord,

and abhor those who rise up against you?

22 I have nothing but hatred for them;

I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;

test me and know my anxious thoughts.

24 See if there is any offensive way in me,

and lead me in the way everlasting.

Below portion taken from parentcompany.com

***

God is Omnipresent

Definition:

The attribute of God by which He fills the universe in all its parts and is present everywhere at once. Not a part, but the whole of God is present in every place. This is true of all three members of the Trinity. They are so closely related that where one is the others can be said to be, also.

Meaning:

Therefore, when man is sinning God is there. If a child is doing something a parent has told him not to do, God is there. There is no place man can go to hide from God.

Scripture Support:

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.


Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.


Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.


I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?


Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.


Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


I Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.


Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


Romans 10:6,7
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep?


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Conclusion:

There is no place to go where God is not already there.