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Is this true?

Active
The scripture I cited was Jesus claiming to be I AM, which according to Exodus was the name God told Moses to say he was. So perhaps you could give me your understanding of what Jesus meant by his statement to the Pharisees "before Abraham was born, I AM"?

Jesus' saying "before Abraham was I am". Is not saying that he was (God). This is easily demonstrated by the preceding verses to that one. Context.

John 8:54-58 "Jesus answered, If I honor myself then my honor is nothing: it is my FATHER that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God." 55-Yet ye have
not known him; but I know him and if I should say I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56-Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY: and he saw it and was glad.
57-Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet 50 years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58-Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

He tells them that his Father is the one they call their God, not him in 54.
He actually never answered their question in 57 did he? He never said yes or no, he just said I was before Abraham and he was before all the spirits of men as God his
Father had decided before the world was formed that all of his creation should be reconciled back to him through Jesus Christ his only begotten Son.

If you will notice he does not seek his own honor but his Fathers.
It was his Father that showed Abraham the days of the earthly life of Jesus and therefore Abraham was glad to see it.
God also showed this end result to David as David had said "the LORD said to my Lord .........." notice the all caps signifying the Father and the upper case L for Jesus.
This signifies a difference. Just as how could he(Jesus) deliver up the kingdom to his Father if he was the Father after all things have been reconciled?

Micah5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall HE come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (i.e. the days of eternity.)(Foreordained). Shall HE come forth unto ME? obviously Jesus coming on the scene
to do the will of the Father. As was forseen by Abraham and David as God had shown them before he was made manifest in his earthly body. (Prophetic visions)

1 Peter 1:19-21 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish or without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the
world,
but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who BY HIM (Jesus) DO BELIEVE IN GOD, THAT RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD, AND GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in God."

As we see here it was God who raised Jesus from the dead AND gave him glory.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him (Jesus) from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I'm sorry it is averting you but God cannot die, but Jesus as a man could and did, and it was God who raised Jesus from the dead as he should not be held by death for he
never sinned.

In your view God committed suicide for the sin of mankind if you consider what your saying. But like I said God cannot die and never did.
 
Active
He must also want to listen to God and pray for forgiveness. I feel I've taken him for granted but since the Coronavirus fears it has made me realise this and put things into perspective.

Lisa x

Take a peek at 2 Chronicles 7:13-14 it's fitting.
 
Active
Man might have a free will to do evil, because that is what he wants to do! But a will to choose God , he cannot, because he has not the ability neither the desire to do so. So he has to be drawn [dragged] chosen, elected, by a irresistible grace. “No man CAN come to the Son unless The Father draw him”
King James Version
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Man cannot will his way to Jesus or God. He is in love with darkness! It is his human nature. He is a Sinner. He is not a sinner because he sins. He sins because he is a sinner! And that is all a sinner can do is sin against GOD.

"He is not a sinner because he sins. He sins because he is a sinner! "

This is illogical. Can one be a running before he runs? Can he be a welder before he welds?
 
Active
Isaiah 48:8 God speaks of all humans as transgressors from the womb. So it is possible in Gods eyes to be something before you start being as he made us to be vessels
either to honor or dishonor, but all were initially to dishonor from the womb.
 
Active
Isaiah 48:8 God speaks of all humans as transgressors from the womb. So it is possible in Gods eyes to be something before you start being as he made us to be vessels
either to honor or dishonor, but all were initially to dishonor from the womb.
I believe that passage was written to Israel.
 
Active
I believe that passage was written to Israel.

Were you ever able to call yourself totally sinless? No man or woman ,save Jesus, was ever able to do so. Therefore we all fit the description regardless of when or who
it was written to.
 
Loyal
Samson2020; To be a “Millwright” you have to work at it. To be a sinner, you don’t have to do anything, “Butch5”
“Original Sin”. A Sinner mates with a Sinner , produces After it’s own kind.
 
Loyal
Were you ever able to call yourself totally sinless? No man or woman ,save Jesus, was ever able to do so. Therefore we all fit the description regardless of when or who
it was written to.


Romans -- "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
 
Active
Jesus' saying "before Abraham was I am". Is not saying that he was (God). This is easily demonstrated by the preceding verses to that one. Context.

John 8:54-58 "Jesus answered, If I honor myself then my honor is nothing: it is my FATHER that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God." 55-Yet ye have
not known him; but I know him and if I should say I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56-Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY DAY: and he saw it and was glad.
57-Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet 50 years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58-Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

He tells them that his Father is the one they call their God, not him in 54.
He actually never answered their question in 57 did he? He never said yes or no, he just said I was before Abraham and he was before all the spirits of men as God his
Father had decided before the world was formed that all of his creation should be reconciled back to him through Jesus Christ his only begotten Son.

If you will notice he does not seek his own honor but his Fathers.
It was his Father that showed Abraham the days of the earthly life of Jesus and therefore Abraham was glad to see it.
God also showed this end result to David as David had said "the LORD said to my Lord .........." notice the all caps signifying the Father and the upper case L for Jesus.
This signifies a difference. Just as how could he(Jesus) deliver up the kingdom to his Father if he was the Father after all things have been reconciled?

Micah5:2 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall HE come forth unto ME that is to be ruler in Israel
whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (i.e. the days of eternity.)(Foreordained). Shall HE come forth unto ME? obviously Jesus coming on the scene
to do the will of the Father. As was forseen by Abraham and David as God had shown them before he was made manifest in his earthly body. (Prophetic visions)

1 Peter 1:19-21 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish or without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the
world,
but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who BY HIM (Jesus) DO BELIEVE IN GOD, THAT RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD, AND GAVE HIM GLORY; that your faith and hope might be in God."

As we see here it was God who raised Jesus from the dead AND gave him glory.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him (Jesus) from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I'm sorry it is averting you but God cannot die, but Jesus as a man could and did, and it was God who raised Jesus from the dead as he should not be held by death for he
never sinned.

In your view God committed suicide for the sin of mankind if you consider what your saying. But like I said God cannot die and never did.
Hi Samson, I don't believe any of us can totally grasp the complexities of scripture, all we can do is delve in to what is written and try to grasp its meaning, more often than not we fail. Jesus spoke of his obedience to the Father, that, as you say, proves that he was not the Father, I understand that. but then we have to explain away the first few verses of the gospel of John, that claim that he was with God and was God, John 1: 1. This chapter intimates that Jesus was there in the beginning and in fact was the Word that created all things. So in the beginning we find three entities involved in the creation. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The way it appears to me, and I may well be wrong, is that God the Father conceived the creation, God the Son (the Word) spoke it out and God the Holy Spirit brought it into being. This I presume is what the Catholics mean by the trinity, three in one. When Jesus was born, as well as being fully divine, he was also fully man and, as such, took on many of the limitations of man and so relied totally on his father and the helper, the Holy Spirit to guide him. I am not, when I post here, trying to be cantankerous, or trying to decry someone else's understandings, I am just throwing my own findings into the mix to try to expand the debate. I don't try to bully with capital letters or insult, like your last line did when you intimated that my view was that Jesus disobeyed the law by committing suicide. If you disagree with me, there's nothing wrong with that, that is debate, but let's try to do it with a bit more civility. Bless you and I sincerely mean that Samson. Trevor
 
Member
in the begining of genesis the reason why the earth was cover in water is because god had to make the earth again? I heard it from my grandma pastors. I never seen that in scriptures. Why do pastors make up lies? OR IS it true
Very relevant question and I read through a few very informative responses.
 
Active
I believe that passage was written to Israel.
Hi Butch 5, In Rom 11 : 17-21 Here we are told that we are grafted into the vine and as such are spiritual Israel, so the passage must also relate to the elect.
 
Active
but then we have to explain away the first few verses of the gospel of John, that claim that he was with God and was God, John 1: 1
Probably the most misunderstood verse in the Bible. Logos was the Greek word interpreted as the word WORD in this verse, but logos has been translated into
25 different English words in the KJV. So I give a few verses to show how a misunderstanding of that single word makes such a big difference.

In the beginning was the word(logos,plan), and the word(logos,plan) was with God, and the word(logos,plan) was God.
And the word(logos,plan) was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
And he preached the word (plan) unto them.
The sower soweth the word (plan).
Making the word(plan) of God of none effect through your tradition.

Vines expository dictionary defines LOGOS (Word) as - "the expression of thought, as embodying a conception or idea." Thus a blueprint or plan if written out.

If I give you my word that I will feed your animals every day while your on vacation. Then my plan is to go to your house and feed and water them daily.
My word is a way of saying I will do all that I have said I will do.
Same with God.

In the beginning God had a plan, the plan was with him, and the plan was him. (Rather to recreate himself through children). Jesus was the plan of God in flesh form and he
taught the plan and walked the plan so that we would know the way in which he achieved unto the culmination of the plan. As after his resurrection from among
the dead, which God did Romans 10:9, He was glorified and declared to be a God by his Father. "O God thy throne is forever." Fulfillment of the word(plan).
Showing us the PLAN works.

"And being perfected he BECAME the author of eternal salvation to those that obey him."
All power in heaven and in earth was GIVEN to him after resurrection.

"And this is life eternal that they may know THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." To show you the plan, the way.

If we look at what his reward was in that he sat down with his Father in his Fathers throne and he promises the same to all who overcome as he did we see that he
obtained something he did not have prior to being a human, just as you did not until after being born of the spirit. The rewards are the same. Thus being a joint-heir
with Christ and an heir of God.

Jesus was simply the first to complete the process we would call the word (plan) and come to his glorification. We are waiting for the same thing.

Gods word is Gods plan. If you continue in my word/plan then you shall know the truth.......
If the word was God then which came first? God or Gods word? Chicken or the egg. However in light of logos=plan the plan was God. And we see Jesus who is now
a God as he BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. Will that suffice as a definition of a God? We know that from his own words that the Father is the only TRUE GOD, but is capable of making life giving spirits and God called the first one a God. Go figure.

I get amazed at how this one verse gets so misused that it creates a new gospel. But with understanding of the Greek word Logos=plan, it sheds new light.

I would also say that every time God in the Old testament used the words Hear ye the word of the Lord it was always a proclamation that espoused an outcome.

Ps I only use caps to underscore important words not yell, thats left up to punctuation.
 
Active
Probably the most misunderstood verse in the Bible. Logos was the Greek word interpreted as the word WORD in this verse, but logos has been translated into
25 different English words in the KJV. So I give a few verses to show how a misunderstanding of that single word makes such a big difference.

In the beginning was the word(logos,plan), and the word(logos,plan) was with God, and the word(logos,plan) was God.
And the word(logos,plan) was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
And he preached the word (plan) unto them.
The sower soweth the word (plan).
Making the word(plan) of God of none effect through your tradition.

Vines expository dictionary defines LOGOS (Word) as - "the expression of thought, as embodying a conception or idea." Thus a blueprint or plan if written out.

If I give you my word that I will feed your animals every day while your on vacation. Then my plan is to go to your house and feed and water them daily.
My word is a way of saying I will do all that I have said I will do.
Same with God.

In the beginning God had a plan, the plan was with him, and the plan was him. (Rather to recreate himself through children). Jesus was the plan of God in flesh form and he
taught the plan and walked the plan so that we would know the way in which he achieved unto the culmination of the plan. As after his resurrection from among
the dead, which God did Romans 10:9, He was glorified and declared to be a God by his Father. "O God thy throne is forever." Fulfillment of the word(plan).
Showing us the PLAN works.

"And being perfected he BECAME the author of eternal salvation to those that obey him."
All power in heaven and in earth was GIVEN to him after resurrection.

"And this is life eternal that they may know THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." To show you the plan, the way.

If we look at what his reward was in that he sat down with his Father in his Fathers throne and he promises the same to all who overcome as he did we see that he
obtained something he did not have prior to being a human, just as you did not until after being born of the spirit. The rewards are the same. Thus being a joint-heir
with Christ and an heir of God.

Jesus was simply the first to complete the process we would call the word (plan) and come to his glorification. We are waiting for the same thing.

Gods word is Gods plan. If you continue in my word/plan then you shall know the truth.......
If the word was God then which came first? God or Gods word? Chicken or the egg. However in light of logos=plan the plan was God. And we see Jesus who is now
a God as he BECAME A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. Will that suffice as a definition of a God? We know that from his own words that the Father is the only TRUE GOD, but is capable of making life giving spirits and God called the first one a God. Go figure.

I get amazed at how this one verse gets so misused that it creates a new gospel. But with understanding of the Greek word Logos=plan, it sheds new light.

I would also say that every time God in the Old testament used the words Hear ye the word of the Lord it was always a proclamation that espoused an outcome.

Ps I only use caps to underscore important words not yell, thats left up to punctuation.
I'm sorry Samson but I have to believe that the written word was translated by prayerful men and their translations where given for believers to trust you say the word actually means the plan and not the person of Jesus, so your saying that the plan became flesh. who's flesh? I think I'll bow out of this debate with you. bless you.
 
Active
Hi Butch 5, In Rom 11 : 17-21 Here we are told that we are grafted into the vine and as such are spiritual Israel, so the passage must also relate to the elect.
It doesn't work like that. God was speaking to a certain group of people who were Israelites, they are the elect. He didn't say anything about people in the future. We can't take passages out of context like that or we'll come to incorrect conclusions. If we look at it the way you're suggesting we would have to apply Jesus words to the Pharisees to believers today. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and vipers.
 
Active
It doesn't work like that. God was speaking to a certain group of people who were Israelites, they are the elect. He didn't say anything about people in the future. We can't take passages out of context like that or we'll come to incorrect conclusions. If we look at it the way you're suggesting we would have to apply Jesus words to the Pharisees to believers today. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and vipers.
Butch5 hello, The apostle Paul was the apostle to the gentiles not to the Jews. hence, his letter to the Romans. Romans were not Jews. The book of Romans is for us, so if in chapter 11: 11 Paul says in his letter to the Romans who were Gentiles, that the Romans were grafted into the vine. The book of Romans are in our bible and are as relevant to us as they were to the Romans, it means that we were grafted into the vine (the Jews) and so like them become Gods people. Blessings
 
Loyal
Butch5 hello, The apostle Paul was the apostle to the gentiles not to the Jews. hence, his letter to the Romans. Romans were not Jews. The book of Romans is for us, so if in chapter 11: 11 Paul says in his letter to the Romans who were Gentiles, that the Romans were grafted into the vine. The book of Romans are in our bible and are as relevant to us as they were to the Romans, it means that we were grafted into the vine (the Jews) and so like them become Gods people. Blessings


Amen brother Amen

We are grafted into the original vine even to the lump, the root.

Romans 11:11-24 (NKJV)
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


I am sure you will agree brother, this is so often misunderstood by Christian, even some minister.

If it wasn't for the Jews we would be lost in sin forever, and the wages of sin is eternal death.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Romans 2:9
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Romans 2:10
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

John 15 Jesus, a Jew himself said, I am the Vine, you are the branches...

Bless you
 
Active
Butch5 hello, The apostle Paul was the apostle to the gentiles not to the Jews. hence, his letter to the Romans. Romans were not Jews. The book of Romans is for us, so if in chapter 11: 11 Paul says in his letter to the Romans who were Gentiles, that the Romans were grafted into the vine. The book of Romans are in our bible and are as relevant to us as they were to the Romans, it means that we were grafted into the vine (the Jews) and so like them become Gods people. Blessings
What does that have to do with the passage in Isaiah?
Were you ever able to call yourself totally sinless? No man or woman ,save Jesus, was ever able to do so. Therefore we all fit the description regardless of when or who
it was written to.

Whether that is true or not has no bearing on Isaiah 48. Let me ask you a question, since you're a Christian and Paul wrote this to Christians, does it apply to you?

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?1
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Cor. 3:1-4 KJV)
 
Active
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Bingo
I feel this way every day I post something because it is made into an argument because of lack of understanding. There is a lot to say but seeing folks can't handle it you
can't get past the milky part. But I suppose if God wanted them to grow by what I said then they would see and we could go on to higher things. That is rarely the case.
The mere fact that were still discussing who is a transgressor from the womb proves that it is ridiculous. But maybe there is someone on the sidelines getting full from
our words? There will always be babes that need the sincere milk.

PS there is so much in Isaiah written to todays elect that it's not even funny, it's loaded, mainly last several chapters of the book, it intertwines the totality of the last 2000
yrs and many thousands of yrs past where we are now.
 
Active
Bingo
I feel this way every day I post something because it is made into an argument because of lack of understanding. There is a lot to say but seeing folks can't handle it you
can't get past the milky part. But I suppose if God wanted them to grow by what I said then they would see and we could go on to higher things. That is rarely the case.
The mere fact that were still discussing who is a transgressor from the womb proves that it is ridiculous. But maybe there is someone on the sidelines getting full from
our words? There will always be babes that need the sincere milk.

PS there is so much in Isaiah written to todays elect that it's not even funny, it's loaded, mainly last several chapters of the book, it intertwines the totality of the last 2000
yrs and many thousands of yrs past where we are now.

You didn't answer the question. Does that passage pertain to you?
It's funny how those who can't make a defense always seems to go to the "spiritual". The passage was written to Israel many centuries ago. God was not talking about Christian's today. By the way? Israel is God's elect.
 
Active
Amen brother Amen

We are grafted into the original vine even to the lump, the root.

Romans 11:11-24 (NKJV)
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


I am sure you will agree brother, this is so often misunderstood by Christian, even some minister.

If it wasn't for the Jews we would be lost in sin forever, and the wages of sin is eternal death.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Romans 2:9
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Romans 2:10
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

John 15 Jesus, a Jew himself said, I am the Vine, you are the branches...

Bless you
Hi Paul, I love knowing that I am Spiritually joined to God's chosen, It brings me more intimately closer to Jesus. bless you brother. Trevor
 
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