this is topic where one gets to shape their view of what it means to be christian quite a bit. for most of us (nearly all of us) we are safe from percuatos that seek after christians life. However we can read from bible about martys (martyr means someone who died for their faith) especially if you look in book of revelation it says the Beast caused people who did not worship him to be beheaded (to be killed).
now if you want to believe pre-trib you have to remove every verse from bible that talks about people dying over testimony of Jesus. That's just silly how all these martyrs to die for Jesus don't count as christians for pre-trib believers because that would not work at all now would it.. christians must be safe from all evil.. its only those left behind jews and other folks whos going to get it.
its not that Jesus didnt say that not a hair from head will be lost but who was he talking to? again to the left-behind audience. all that is None of our concern whatsover according to (pre-tribs).

still it talks lot about tribulations in bible. and if we think everyone who dies for their faith in christ is just lesser breathen or no real believer at all , as we know it, then isn't that denying everything what bible says aboutb denying your self and following Jesus?
Did Jesus die martyr death? Yes. Did the brother in acts who was full of holy spirit and good man die martyr death? Yes. Did Apostole Paul? Yes. Did Peter? yes.
Who of the apostoles didnt? I dont know but but many of them did.
so why think we absolutely must be out from here before anything actually happens? The anti-christ, Beast. Tribulations. And all the wrath of God just meant for those non christians to see? And yet No one repents to give glory to God. what is the point? I don't know if I understand but the nature of tribulations doesnt not add up with pre-trib doctrine. if only christians would read their bible it could raise a question or two whats all the tribulation about. I mean whats the point? have you ever read book of revelations?

i think the world must be pretty corrupted to accept Beast and worship it in book of revelations. ready to be judged by God when all those who still have faith in Jesus gets killed and God finds none righteuss left on earth. This is where the earth is ripe to be harvested. When humanity as we know it ceases to exist in the truly fallen world who follows beast and anti-christ. Only then there's actually a reason for Jesus to come get us, who are still left, out from here to heaven.


Rev 9:20-21 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.



Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


That's people blasheming God when tribulation is going on and they are suffering. And Jesus hasnt returned yet as it says in following verse:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We are clearly told when Jesus will return!

The information is contained in three lines.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him (rapture),

² that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit
or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

³ Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The day of the Lord, that is the day Jesus returns to collect us.

Two events must take place before Jesus returns.

The apostasy (falling away) must occur, and the
antichrist is revealed.

Line three specifically specifies this sequence.

Do no be deceived regarding this.

UPDATE: I no longer believe in rapture doctrine. Verses in Thessalonians and Corinthians are referring to resurrection.

Originally Posted by David777

We are clearly told when Jesus will return!

The information is contained in three lines.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him (rapture),

² that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit
or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

³ Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,
and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The day of the Lord, that is the day Jesus returns to collect us.

Two events must take place before Jesus returns.

The apostasy (falling away) must occur, and the
antichrist is revealed.

Line three specifically specifies this sequence.

Do no be deceived regarding this.

That's the way i see it to David.

I have a fundamentals neighbour who shakes his fist at the Lord and demands him to come down and this fellow thinks nothing of doing anything he could to bring it on, so he thinks he can cause trouble, even wars if he could but for the belief he is going to be out of hear before he has to deal with it all.
He wants all the Arabs dead. and out of the State of Israel. he is so angry he can't see anything other.
Has anyone other come across this type stuff.

Originally Posted by WaitingForJesus

UPDATE: I no longer believe in rapture doctrine. Verses in Thessalonians and Corinthians are referring to resurrection.

Yes of course it does :)

I had to fall away to the lawless son of destruction revealed in me. The Coming of Christ revealed that to me. That is exactly what Thessalonians is talking about. That is what it all means. That is why I had to die in baptism. My old sinful self is destroyed in the brightness of His Coming. It's been going on for thirty plus years now. I got off the throne, the son of perdition that I was, and now Jesus is Enthroned in my Temple Body of the Living God.

It is the simple same gospel that is always being spoken of throught scriptures. Being raised up in Newness of Life as Paul describes again in detail in Romans 8 That is all that is what is important. It is NOW of course. Not some future timeline that eveyone in scriptures forgot to mention lol. Now I've been gathered together in His body in fellowship with all the saints.

To put it all off into some future pie in the sky idea is mindless gooblety gook. While everyone else is being a clairvoyant into the future, the present reality of the Kingdom of God is passing them by, until the day they find themselves standing there naked because they "knew not the time of their visitation".

(Luk 19:44)
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


RECIEVE JESUS NOW FOLKS! :) Nothing to put off into the future. Preach the Gospel of Christ Come. Not a Gospel that He HASN'T COME yet. There is no life in that path.

Peace in Christ

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

I also believe that it is a "now is" event and not some time in the future.


Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The words in the revelation are to bless the hearer.
How does the description of some event thousands of years in the future bless the readers of 100 years ago or 1000 years ago.
Eternity means always was and always will be with no beginning and no end so you can't get on or off in time because there is none.
The event revelation is describing is the conquering of our carnal mindset which is at war with God.

Remember Jesus told Martha"I am the resurrection" right before he restored Lazarus to life.You see Martha was also waiting for a future event called the resurrection and she could not discern that the resurrection was standing right in front of her.

By the way what is a partial rapture?
Does it make you holy(get it?).?

Forgive me for that.

Know that there is only one rapture (resurrection of the dead and after those who are alive at that time) and it is immediately after the dead (those who are asleep) rise first at the second coming of Christ which is AFTER the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

I also believe that it is a "now is" event and not some time in the future.


Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The words in the revelation are to bless the hearer.
How does the description of some event thousands of years in the future bless the readers of 100 years ago or 1000 years ago.
Eternity means always was and always will be with no beginning and no end so you can't get on or off in time because there is none.
The event revelation is describing is the conquering of our carnal mindset which is at war with God.

Remember Jesus told Martha"I am the resurrection" right before he restored Lazarus to life.You see Martha was also waiting for a future event called the resurrection and she could not discern that the resurrection was standing right in front of her.

I don't often see this perfect an understanding of the Coming of the Lord! It is like a big breath of fresh air :)

Originally Posted by DutchChristian

Know that there is only one rapture (resurrection of the dead and after those who are alive at that time) and it is immediately after the dead (those who are asleep) rise first at the second coming of Christ which is AFTER the tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Have you not been raised up in Christ yet?

Have you not been in tribulation groaning and travailing to bring forth the Son of God in your life?

I have :) Praise Jesus!

What are you waiting for aside from the redemption of your body? And how will that happen if your soul isn't raised up and redeemed To Day?

Honestly! What are you waiting for? Have you not died in baptism and been raised up from the dead yet?

(2Co 6:2)
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)


(Rom 6:4)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This is the only thing remaining yet to happen, for me anyway...


(1Jn 3:2)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Thank you Jesus for raising me up in your image in the New Resurrection Life I live by Your resurrected Spirit dwelling in me, I praise you Forever!