Why or why not? How does free-choice vs. predestination fit into this? God's sovereignty?



(by the way, and for the record: I'm not asking because I'm contemplating this. It came to mind from the other poll here, asking the question about euthanasia)

Your question seems incomplete.

You will need to supply more information.

I understand predestination in regards to Jesus Christ and the election of Jew and Gentile. On this the scripture is clear.

Certainly not predestination regarding every human choice now that would be a strange option to take. I am not aware of any scripture that supports this. I have witnessed many incredibly bad choices made by humans of which God is certainly not the author.

Whether suicide is wrong, I have no scripture to quote, I have not found any. But many Christians regard suicide as the ''taking of life" even your own life as wrong.

I wonder what others think about this?

The question is twofold: 1) is suicide a sin? and 2) do you go to hell for it?


My other words were just to try to unerstand the "why" of people's answers to the twofold question. It was just to offer some thoughts on how to spur the discussion. If those don't help folks with explaining the "why", please, just pass over them. I don't mean to confuse the issue...but I am interested in the "backup" for the "Yes's or No's".

For some folks, perhaps they would view something like this as clearly as you seem to, David777...and assume, like you, that the act of suicide is authored - pretty much exclusively by human action. Of course, I'm not so sure Calvinists can be doctrinally honest, and agree with you on that. Hence, my "secondary" question, to spur on some of the "why's or why not's" of this. Maybe not for you, but for some, that would be a germane topic.



Bottom line: I'm not trying to lead the witness here...I just want to know how people view this. If you feel I'm leading you, please ignore me, and just focus on the questions asked in the poll. :-)

thanks

ps: David777 -- you didn't vote. :-)

I will have to second David. The options are too limited. Depends if they are a Christian or not.

Originally Posted by ForumAddict

I will have to second David. The options are too limited. Depends if they are a Christian or not.

It's about as simple a question as I've asked on these forums.

What other options would you have put in the poll?

It's either a sin, or it's not. You either go to hell for it, or you don't.


Am I missing something?

Here, how 'bout I clear this up: let's assume, for the sake of this poll, that the person doing this is a Christian, or would call themselves a Christian.

Depends if they are a Christian or not.

The options provided do not take this into consideration.

If it were a Christian (or not) then yes it is a sin, and a Christian would not go to Hell, and a non Christian would.

Originally Posted by ForumAddict

The options provided do not take this into consideration.

If it were a Christian (or not) then yes it is a sin, and a Christian would not go to Hell, and a non Christian would.

well...thanks for allowing me to clarify that I am assuming we're talking about Christians here. I assumed since this was "Talk Jesus" that we might all have assumed that...but, that's a leap on my part. My apologies.


So, you're a "Yes. No." If you don't mind voting...I'm curious to look at the common responses once a group of people weigh-in on this.


Lastly - do you have any scriptures or other backup for the view that you're taking, that they're going to hell?

1. "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish." John 10:28.

• This is an unconditional guarantee.
• Eternal life means saved for eternity.
• What does "never perish" mean?

2. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6.

• Christ will perform His work in us to the Second Coming.

3. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD... Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand ... The LORD .. forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever." Psalms 37:23-28.

• Four times God tells us that He keeps us saved.

4. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38,39.

• For a born again believer to be lost, he must somehow be separated from the love of God, and become an object of God's wrath. Paul says that this is impossible.

5. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25. "to the uttermost" means "forever."

6. "By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:12.

• Redemption means to buy back by paying a price. Since we have an eternal redemption, we are redeemed for all eternity.

7. "... receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15.

• Our inheritance is for eternity.
• Our eternal inheritance is promised by God.

8. "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." 1 Corinthians 15:49.

• "Shall" means that it is a certainty that we will bear the heavenly image.

9. "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:4,5.

• Six times God tells us that we are secure forever.
• "Fadeth not away" means perpetual.

10. "I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12.

• Paul had committed the keeping of his soul to Christ. He was sure that Christ would keep him saved to his heavenly kingdom.

11. "The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom..." 2 Timothy 4:18.

• The Lord will deliver us and preserve us.

12. "Who shall also confirm you unto the END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful ..." 1 Corinthians 1:8,9.

13. "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:4.

• Ye shall appear with Christ in glory, no if's or but's.

14. "This is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." 1 John 2:25.

"In hope of eternal life which God, that cannot lie, promised.." Titus 1:2.

• God has promised eternal life to us, and He cannot lie.

15. "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

• If we come to Jesus Christ for salvation, He will not cast us out of salvation.

16. "If our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Cor. 5:1.

• We know that if our body dies, we go to heaven for eternity.

Just want to clear up this point S.I.E.

"and assume, like you, that the act of suicide is authored - pretty much exclusively by human action. Of course, I'm not so sure Calvinists can be doctrinally honest, and agree with you on that"

Black stocking Calvinists think that every human choice is the very will of God. Adam fell because it was God's will that he fell. That is the doctrine of the black stocking Calvinists. Of course suicide is the will of God S.I.E. You will have to do some research on this.

Five point Calvinists do not agree with this extension of God's will
they restrict it to election. They allow for some human choices.

I think there may be other variations on this theme in Calvinism, I am no expert on this. I restrict myself purely to the point of election and the scriptural proof.

Yes, if you die unsaved.
No, if you die saved.