Originally Posted by Brighthouse

And you are correct RJ!! except for one point. Can one ever repent after ones death? Suicide is an act of being God yourself. Is not suicide Blasphemy? Taking a creation from God and killing it without his approval? Since we both know that the act itself separates us from the Lord forever, Hebrews 6:4-6 takes effect for that person,does it not? One can never renew one who is dead.

There may be something to consider here. What we classify as dead (as in the heart stopping) and what God classifies as dead (as in the "silver cord" being severed) may be two different things.

Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Personally, I believe there is a time between life and death, even the death of suicide, that can be used to remember God and come to Him. Just because we, as humans, may not see the person that has come to God during that time does not mean they haven't.

Somehow I think it will be a surprise for many who they will be rubbing elbows with while siting at that wedding feast table.

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. ( KJV )

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. ( For those who prefer the more accurate NASB )

condone:
1. to disregard or overlook ( something illegal, objectionable, or the like )
2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.
3. to pardon or forgive ( an offense ); excuse.
4. to cause the condonation of.
5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of ( a violation of the marriage vow. )

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

And by the way, as has been alluded to by some in this post, my answers (and questions) here have nothing to do with OSAS. And I concur with what some have already said, that no one, including me, is encouraging people to take their own lives as long as they're saved (or for any reason), nor are we condoning suicide, or saying that people who commit suicide go to heaven. That some of you would imply that that is what some of us believe is staggering beyond belief!

No, I don't think ANYONE has actually said that if a person commits suicide they will go to Heaven. What HAS been said is that if a "saved" person commits suicide they WILL go to Heaven. I don't feel like quoting all the previous posts, if you need proof go back into the thread yourself and read what HAS been said. There is no question about what has been said in this thread. There's no possible way to have misinterpreted what has been said.

Now, as for encouraging and condoning and "advising" the act of suicide: IF someone who is depressed AND "saved" comes in here and sees where people have said, "No, you will not go to Hell if you kill yourself as long as you are "saved"" would this type of comment DISCOURAGE an already depressed "saved" person from making the decision to take their own life? If killing yourself, as long as you're "saved", won't send you to Hell, there is only one other option, right? Heaven? Heaven IS the greatest thing that any of us could possibly image, right? Thus the word 'Heaven'. Pain-free? Sorrow-free? Right? HOW is what some of you have said NOT encouraging the act?

I can think of a few other things that are staggering beyond belief ....

Salvation is not nor cannot be dependant on repentance AT ANY TIME

I'm pretty sure that the Bible is CLEAR that one has to repent to get saved to begin with. Therefore, sorta dependent on it, right?

Besids for providing me some serious comic relief, I could now tell you how screwed up, judgemental, pious, and self righteous you sound....but instead I should just ask you: what do you think of your statements, now that I've reiterated them back to you?

I read and re-read my posts before I ever even post them; correcting punctuation and misspellings, making sure that I've said what I have wanted to say, worded things the best way that I can, and your "reiteration" has not changed my feelings about what I've said in the slightest.

Thats like saying that if i told a potential thief that God would forgive them for the act that i have encouraged them to rob someone

Telling a "potential" thief that he would be forgiven if he did steal something WOULD very much encourage them to commit the crime, being as there is no consequences for his actions! Really? You don't see things this way?

You're thinking is very distorted and it seems like you enjoy slander so i will be more than happy to ignore your posts in future

And you go ahead and ignore my posts in the future because I would prefer to talk with people that make at least a little bit of sense anyway. People that CAN be reasoned with. If you believe that telling a "potential" thief that he would definitely get away with stealing something is not in some way encouraging him to do the crime, yes, PLEASE ignore my future posts, by all means.

Isaac001: No question, just a statement of shock, what you said was wrong. No where do we see Dimitri advising people to commit suicide. With all due respect, you should really be more honest and less emotional in your post, This is a Christian Website, you should not bare a false witness against your brother in Christ just because you disagree with him.

It's your opinion that I have born false witness, Isaac001. I disagree.
"Advising" isn't really the word I used, is it? If you are going to call me out on something, you should at least be fair about it. I've used the words "condone" and "encourage", why didn't you use one of those words to form your sentence?

Further, you "know" how to discern things the way God does...and you know what to call "sin".

I assume this to be a question to me? Doesn't the Bible pretty much tell us what sin is? Shouldn't ALL Christians know what sin is? I don't think that we have to be equal with God, or think that we are equal with God, to claim to know what sin is. Sorry, maybe I don't understand what is being said here.

Christians can't be depressed. If they are, they certainly don't/can't have the fruits of the Spirit. Christians don't get depressed. Your brain can't understand how "depressed" may coexist with the "fruits"...therefore, they two certainly can't coexist. If it doesn't pass through your logic filter...then it's not true.

Do you then believe that the fruits of the Spirit are something that Christians only experience on occasion? The fruits of the Spirit come and go? If not, how can depression and joy coexist in the same person? And you're right, if something doesn't make sense according to my logic filter, I deem it not true. Until it does make sense. Don't we all judge things by our own sense of reasoning? Even if you decide that you want to completely-blindly put your faith in something that you don't fully understand, you only do it because somewhere in your mind it makes sense to do so.

It's only reasonable to cast doubt on your brother's salvation. Especially if, in your "acid test", they fail to pass the test of what an actual saved Christian should look like.

And here again, we all judge whether or not we believe if someone is truly saved when we speak to them about the Lord, and listen to what they have to say. If you didn't judge them then what they say doesn't really matter and you really have no reason at all to agree or disagree with what they say. And yet, here we all are, discussing what the Bible says and don't say, what is truth and what is not. When you disagree with someone about their views on the Bible, you are by default saying that they are wrong in what they believe, no matter how you choose to do it. And many times it directly involves salvation. If you believe that salvation is by faith alone, then you generally also believe that people ( like me ) who believe that we play a part in our salvation are not saved because we are not trusting in the finished work of the cross and are trying to save ourselves, etc ... which is what a person HAS to believe in order to be saved according to the "faith alone" group. Just because you don't come out and say it all the time, doesn't mean that you are not judging another person's salvation. We have to judge whether or not we believe that a person might be saved in order to make the decision to listen to things that they say. If we believe that they couldn't be saved, we disregard what they say because they can't help us. Who would go to a church every time the doors open to listen to a preacher whom they didn't believe was saved? You have to judge their salvation to decide whether or not to agree with the things they say. If a person doesn't believe that belief in the Trinity is important for salvation, there is no real point in disagreeing with someone about the Trinity.

I've had people tell me that I was their brother in Christ and that it didn't matter that we disagree on OSAS, or some other topic, then turn right around and post in another thread that what I believe in is the Devil's doctrine. It's the nice "Christian" way to behave on a Christian Website, right? I figure, at least, I'm honest about disagreeing with someone. The same people like to point out at times that we're not supposed to judge another person's salvation? If what I believe in is the Devil's doctrine, shouldn't one also easily be able to draw the conclusion that there is also no way that I could be saved? I feel like I'm being honest, but am always being told that it isn't the proper way to behave on a Christian Website. It's puzzling.

Maybe I completely misunderstood what you meant by your statement?

You believe there are some here who condone the act of suicide.

Are condoning, yes.

You believe you have a SUPERIOR doctrine. It is probably wrapped nicely and neatly, in your brain/heart. All other doctrine is not only inferior....but you are hard pressed to see why you should be wasting ANY of your prescious time with ANYONE who believes certain doctrine. You're either "above that" or they are "below you"...or something of that nature. God calls you to those who have need....not those who believe incorrectly. You are happy to leave them in their miserable state of believing incorrectly.

You have things that you believe in too, and I'm sure that you think that what you believe is better. Otherwise, why believe it over something else? And as for leaving people in their miserable state of unbelief: Absolutely. Some people will not be deterred. Ever notice that Jesus didn't go around begging the Pharisees and Sadducees to listen to him? That he didn't go door to door, to their homes? I am starting to really realize why he didn't now. They had what they wanted.

First of all, you believe there are human-beings who go around throughout their lives making "no decision"...and you are an Apostle, of sorts, to help them make one. Secondly, you're a GodSend (so to speak) by the fact that you've willingly chosen your time on these lost folks.

Perhaps I should have said unbelievers, you know, people who haven't already bought into a belief.

It's also reasonable to not only judge and cast doubt on the salvation of a fellow brother....but it's also "knowable" whether an entire Church ACTUALLY operates with REAL faith, or not. All we have to do is look to see if prayers are answered (and presumably, within a certain timeframe!!!) for us to know whether a Church (or, Elders) have REAL faith, or are just pretenders/heretics.

Don't just judge the individual...judge particular Church's or Elders too! And do it based on RESULTS that you/we can see!!

So, I take it that you DO NOT put as much faith into some verses as you do others? Perhaps you should consider that?

Originally Posted by Stickz

And you're right, if something doesn't make sense according to my logic filter, I deem it not true. Until it does make sense. Don't we all judge things by our own sense of reasoning?

Well then, if that is your method for finding truth, and it is right and appropriate in your mind...then what shall we say? Your logic filter is EVERYTHING. Your brain filters all. AND...you trust that. (it's only reasonable! you cry out)


Then please, do not judge to hell and damnation the person who commits suicide! They are using their logic filter, and their brain too. They just came to a vastly different conclusion than you! So be it. It's their opinion, or I should say conclusion....just as you have yours....and both are equally as valid. (using your "acid test" for finding truth)



By the way, who is your "logic filter", and why in the world might I be well suited to want to listen to it? Does it have a name? What guides it? Who or what speaks into IT. How does IT gain the underpinnings on which it knows or doesn't know how to judge something? Moreover: What AUTHORITY does it have, not only to you, but as a tool that sharpens your voice to speak to others about this "truth" that it seemingly can find? (according to you)

Stickz: I know I'm not being subtle with you...because I believe you are operating in very dangerous territory that will, by definition, create you into a very pious, self-righteious, judgemental person. I might say I know from experience, as it "takes one to know one". (but, hopefully, I'm working on it!) I don't imagine you want to be this way, in the end.

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Would anyone like to give your interpretation of this verse? IF it isn't referring to suicides what IS it referring to?

I think it better for me to judge truth by MY logic filter than by YOURS, since you seem to have an issue with someone judging something's truth by whether or not it makes sense to them. Either I'm not understanding you at all, or what you are saying makes very little sense. How do YOU draw the conclusion of whether or not something is true? Do you ask someone whom you trust? Your mom? Your neighbor? Perhaps Charles Stanley or Matthew Henry? I mean, I really don't understand your posts here. You're now just attacking, trying to take personal shots, in my opinion. You've completely lost sight of the original discussion. Why did you start this Poll anyway? What I believe was always one of the available answers, wasn't it? But, what? No one was ever supposed to come in here and say it, right? I think you are mad because I didn't come in to this thread and agree with what you believe to be true about suicide. Don't ask the question when you know that one of the possible answers is something that you can't bear hearing.

s.i.e.: Then please, do not judge to hell and damnation the person who commits suicide!

I guess it depends on how you look at it: I see it being you and the others, that believe like you, that are setting people up to be condemned to Hell. You seem to be focusing more on those that have already committed the act, where I am a little more concerned with those that are thinking about following their example. I would rather attempt to prevent it from happening again than comfort those that have already lost loved ones to the act. What's done is done, and I'm not going to tell them that their loved ones went to Heaven as long as they were saved; it might encourage a bunch of people to say the "Sinner's Prayer" before putting a gun in their mouths, just to have a little hope that they'll make it to Heaven when it's all over.

Someone that comes to this site, that has been contemplating suicide, will hopefully see the things that I have posted here and think twice about doing it. If they put their trust in what some of the others have said here and take their lives believing that they will go to Heaven because they believed that they were saved, you people better pray that you were right about what your "logic filters" have allowed to pass through as truth. I mean, really, do you not think that a post about suicides going to Heaven or Hell will attract people thinking about suicide? And when those that are contemplating suicide do come into this thread, how do you think they will respond to "No, people who commit suicide that are saved will not go to Hell?" Do you reckon they will say, "Well, I've decided NOT to do it, but am really glad to know that I would not go to Hell if I were to go through with it, because I got saved last year at Bible Camp?" The words of other "Christians" COULD be all the encouragement that they need to go ahead and go through with it.

s.i.e.: Stickz: I know I'm not being subtle with you...because I believe you are operating in very dangerous territory

I've noted the concerns that all of you have, and let me assure you that I have my own concerns about all of you as well.

Like with most everything in the Bible, it's almost too bad that we can't just conduct an experiment to find out who's right and settle things right here and now, isn't it?

For the record, Stickz -- I appreciate you sharing your opinion, and voicing your logic behind it. Yes, your answer was one of the choices in the poll. I put it there not necessarily because I believe it to be the right one...but because it is a prevelant response in the minds of Christians, so I wanted to hear some of the logic behind it. You've shared one line of logic that leads to such a conclusion. As you know, I disagree with it. Truth is, I wasn't simply interested in a simple poll...but rather, a conversation about the answers that would ensue. So, again, thanks for playing. :-) I think this part of the discussion has been good.

Originally Posted by Stickz

I guess it depends on how you look at it

Yes, it certainly does. So...if your goal is to curb suicide (is that your goal?), or the temptation that one might feel to carry forth the act...how do we do it? Your answer, in part, seems to be to assure people that if they do this act, they will surely end up in hell where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and eternal consuming fire that never quite consumes the flesh.

I, however, don't believe that installing massive doses of that kind of fear, ultimately, is actually a deterrant at all.

God -- and no one else, not you, not me -- knows the heart. And the heart is EVERYTHING. The heart is what lives after our fless passes away. That is to say, our spirit. How would God judge the heart of one who committed such an act? I answer: I DON'T KNOW, and to a certain extent, it's simply not mine to care how God ends up dealing with people in this category. Going back to your "it depends how you look at it", you, for some reason or another, want to assume that you DO know, and as such, you're prepared to share your message of judgement and damnation on those whose hearts you can't possibly know.

In the end, your ultimate conclusion (they go to hell) may be right, or may be wrong....I don't, and CAN'T know this....only God knows this. But more to the point: why you (or other Christians of this persuasion) feel that it is a MOTIVATING message to share the perils of hell if they are so depressed that they take their own lives, or whatever, I'm not sure I can ever understand.

And THIS....my friend....sums up the difference in how we look at things: that you think you CAN know the hearts of those who might take their own lives....and that I think I CAN'T possibly know such things. The rest carries forth from there. Being that you CAN know...you can also judge, etc

Originally Posted by Stickz

it's almost too bad that we can't just conduct an experiment to find out who's right and settle things right here and now, isn't it?

Going back to "it depends how you look at it"....I will again, disagree with you here.

I believe that when all falls away -- when we all bow down -- when we are so wrapped up in His love, able to look at His face, able to walk in the garden next to Him -- we won't give a hoot about "right" or "wrong" and who had the correct or incorrect view on things. We won't care one bit about "settling things". Nothing of that will matter.

All will fall away, and anything we might have had as a construct in our mind will be so insignificant and trivial, that we won't even bother talking about it.

Now: IF I really believe that, then the next question I need to ask myself is why any of us might bother with being "right" or being "wrong".....or "settling it once and for all".....in THIS life.


If you or I want to speak into someone's life who is hurting, or contemplating the act....we need to speak a different language, and it's universal actually: the language of love. And I don't believe installing the "fear of hell" is much involved in that conversation....whether or not, in the end, you're proved right or wrong.


It's missing the point. It's missing the heart. It's missing everything. It's one strong reason why people are carrying forth the act.

As Christians, we've got to quit being so "right". We've got to quit "settling it" once and for all. We've got to quit handing out judgement to the world around us. We've got to recognize that we are in NO such place to weild much of ANYTHING, much less death and damnation!!!

Originally Posted by Stickz

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. ( KJV )

I Corinthians 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. ( For those who prefer the more accurate NASB )

condone:
1. to disregard or overlook ( something illegal, objectionable, or the like )
2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.
3. to pardon or forgive ( an offense ); excuse.
4. to cause the condonation of.
5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of ( a violation of the marriage vow. )

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.



No, I don't think ANYONE has actually said that if a person commits suicide they will go to Heaven. What HAS been said is that if a "saved" person commits suicide they WILL go to Heaven. I don't feel like quoting all the previous posts, if you need proof go back into the thread yourself and read what HAS been said. There is no question about what has been said in this thread. There's no possible way to have misinterpreted what has been said.

Now, as for encouraging and condoning and "advising" the act of suicide: IF someone who is depressed AND "saved" comes in here and sees where people have said, "No, you will not go to Hell if you kill yourself as long as you are "saved"" would this type of comment DISCOURAGE an already depressed "saved" person from making the decision to take their own life? If killing yourself, as long as you're "saved", won't send you to Hell, there is only one other option, right? Heaven? Heaven IS the greatest thing that any of us could possibly image, right? Thus the word 'Heaven'. Pain-free? Sorrow-free? Right? HOW is what some of you have said NOT encouraging the act?

I can think of a few other things that are staggering beyond belief ....



I'm pretty sure that the Bible is CLEAR that one has to repent to get saved to begin with. Therefore, sorta dependent on it, right?



I read and re-read my posts before I ever even post them; correcting punctuation and misspellings, making sure that I've said what I have wanted to say, worded things the best way that I can, and your "reiteration" has not changed my feelings about what I've said in the slightest.



Telling a "potential" thief that he would be forgiven if he did steal something WOULD very much encourage them to commit the crime, being as there is no consequences for his actions! Really? You don't see things this way?



And you go ahead and ignore my posts in the future because I would prefer to talk with people that make at least a little bit of sense anyway. People that CAN be reasoned with. If you believe that telling a "potential" thief that he would definitely get away with stealing something is not in some way encouraging him to do the crime, yes, PLEASE ignore my future posts, by all means.



It's your opinion that I have born false witness, Isaac001. I disagree.
"Advising" isn't really the word I used, is it? If you are going to call me out on something, you should at least be fair about it. I've used the words "condone" and "encourage", why didn't you use one of those words to form your sentence?



I assume this to be a question to me? Doesn't the Bible pretty much tell us what sin is? Shouldn't ALL Christians know what sin is? I don't think that we have to be equal with God, or think that we are equal with God, to claim to know what sin is. Sorry, maybe I don't understand what is being said here.



Do you then believe that the fruits of the Spirit are something that Christians only experience on occasion? The fruits of the Spirit come and go? If not, how can depression and joy coexist in the same person? And you're right, if something doesn't make sense according to my logic filter, I deem it not true. Until it does make sense. Don't we all judge things by our own sense of reasoning? Even if you decide that you want to completely-blindly put your faith in something that you don't fully understand, you only do it because somewhere in your mind it makes sense to do so.



And here again, we all judge whether or not we believe if someone is truly saved when we speak to them about the Lord, and listen to what they have to say. If you didn't judge them then what they say doesn't really matter and you really have no reason at all to agree or disagree with what they say. And yet, here we all are, discussing what the Bible says and don't say, what is truth and what is not. When you disagree with someone about their views on the Bible, you are by default saying that they are wrong in what they believe, no matter how you choose to do it. And many times it directly involves salvation. If you believe that salvation is by faith alone, then you generally also believe that people ( like me ) who believe that we play a part in our salvation are not saved because we are not trusting in the finished work of the cross and are trying to save ourselves, etc ... which is what a person HAS to believe in order to be saved according to the "faith alone" group. Just because you don't come out and say it all the time, doesn't mean that you are not judging another person's salvation. We have to judge whether or not we believe that a person might be saved in order to make the decision to listen to things that they say. If we believe that they couldn't be saved, we disregard what they say because they can't help us. Who would go to a church every time the doors open to listen to a preacher whom they didn't believe was saved? You have to judge their salvation to decide whether or not to agree with the things they say. If a person doesn't believe that belief in the Trinity is important for salvation, there is no real point in disagreeing with someone about the Trinity.

I've had people tell me that I was their brother in Christ and that it didn't matter that we disagree on OSAS, or some other topic, then turn right around and post in another thread that what I believe in is the Devil's doctrine. It's the nice "Christian" way to behave on a Christian Website, right? I figure, at least, I'm honest about disagreeing with someone. The same people like to point out at times that we're not supposed to judge another person's salvation? If what I believe in is the Devil's doctrine, shouldn't one also easily be able to draw the conclusion that there is also no way that I could be saved? I feel like I'm being honest, but am always being told that it isn't the proper way to behave on a Christian Website. It's puzzling.

Maybe I completely misunderstood what you meant by your statement?



Are condoning, yes.



You have things that you believe in too, and I'm sure that you think that what you believe is better. Otherwise, why believe it over something else? And as for leaving people in their miserable state of unbelief: Absolutely. Some people will not be deterred. Ever notice that Jesus didn't go around begging the Pharisees and Sadducees to listen to him? That he didn't go door to door, to their homes? I am starting to really realize why he didn't now. They had what they wanted.



Perhaps I should have said unbelievers, you know, people who haven't already bought into a belief.



So, I take it that you DO NOT put as much faith into some verses as you do others? Perhaps you should consider that?

STICKZ.. I could sit here and return insult for insult but that always hurts me in the end .. so i won't ..I don't think ignoring you is the right thing to do either nor getting upset about anything you say .
After all you are just another human being just like myself full of faults full of sin and one who deserves compassion ..So you can rant , rave, insult do what ever you please but i am going treat you with all the kindness i can and there is not one thing you can do about that ..May God bless you .

STICKZ ..I want to give you credit where credit is due ..You remind us that when dealing with someone who is considering suicide that we must be very carefull what we say to them .
That being said ..There is a vast difference betwen saying that Suicide will not damn you to hell ..and encouraging one to commit the act .

s.i.e., I've said all that I want to say, on the subject, for the time being. I'm happy with what I've said here, and can't think of any reason why it could bother me to answer to the Lord for my posts in this thread. I always try to base the conclusions that I come to on scripture and never on my heart, and I feel pretty confident that the I Corinthians 3:17 verse that I have posted three times now condemns the act of suicide. Not to mention the various times throughout the NT that Christians are told to ENDURE. I have drawn the conclusion, that this life and everything about it, was intended to be wrapped up inside there somewhere. Just out of curiosity, s.i.e., how would you interpret I Corinthians 3:17?

Originally Posted by Stickz

s.i.e., I've said all that I want to say, on the subject, for the time being. I'm happy with what I've said here, and can't think of any reason why it could bother me to answer to the Lord for my posts in this thread. I always try to base the conclusions that I come to on scripture and never on my heart, and I feel pretty confident that the I Corinthians 3:17 verse that I have posted three times now condemns the act of suicide. Not to mention the various times throughout the NT that Christians are told to ENDURE. I have drawn the conclusion, that this life and everything about it, was intended to be wrapped up inside there somewhere. Just out of curiosity, s.i.e., how would you interpret I Corinthians 3:17?

The condenmnation of the act of suicide does not include the condemnation of the person commiting the act ..

dimitri, would you say that a person could continue committing the act of homosexuality and actually be saved and go to Heaven when they die?