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View Poll Results: Covenant before God vs Secular State Marriage

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  • A covenant before God in his name is more important

    3 50.00%
  • A state license is the only thing to validate a marriage

    0 0%
  • Both is needed for a valid marriage

    3 50.00%
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  1. #1
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    Covenant before God vs Secular State Marriage ?

    Grace and Peace

    My question is , in the eyes of God ( not the church , today churches serve 2 masters God and state ) is a covenant enough or is a state license needed and seen as acceptable.

    I also came across these 2 articles...please give your honest opinion.


    5 Reasons Why Christians Should Not Obtain a State Marriage License

    by Pastor Matt Trewhella

    Every year thousands of Christians amble down to their local county courthouse and obtain a marriage license from the State in order to marry their future spouse. They do this unquestioningly. They do it because their pastor has told them to go get one, and besides, "everybody else gets one." This pamphlet attempts to answer the question - why should we not get one?

    1. The definition of a "license" demands that we not obtain one to marry. Black’s Law Dictionary defines "license" as, "The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal." We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry without the State’s permission? More importantly, why should we need the State’s permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen. 2:18-24)? We should not need the State’s permission to marry nor should we grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State says "no"? You must understand that the authority to license implies the power to prohibit. A license by definition "confers a right" to do something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given right.



    2. When you marry with a marriage license, you grant the State jurisdiction over your marriage. When you marry with a marriage license, your marriage is a creature of the State. It is a corporation of the State! Therefore, they have jurisdiction over your marriage including the fruit of your marriage. What is the fruit of your marriage? Your children and every piece of property you own. There is plenty of case law in American jurisprudence which declares this to be true.

    In 1993, parents were upset here in Wisconsin because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, "your marriage license and their birth certificates." Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, your state marriage license has far-reaching implications.

    3. When you marry with a marriage license, you place yourself under a body of law which is immoral. By obtaining a marriage license, you place yourself under the jurisdiction of Family Court which is governed by unbiblical and immoral laws. Under these laws, you can divorce for any reason. Often, the courts side with the spouse who is in rebellion to God, and castigates the spouse who remains faithful by ordering him or her not to speak about the Bible or other matters of faith when present with the children.

    As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given it’s unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of treason for me to do so.

    4. The marriage license invades and removes God-given parental authority. When you read the Bible, you see that God intended for children to have their father’s blessing regarding whom they married. Daughters were to be given in marriage by their fathers (Dt. 22:16; Ex. 22:17; I Cor. 7:38). We have a vestige of this in our culture today in that the father takes his daughter to the front of the altar and the minister asks, "Who gives this woman to be married to this man?"

    Historically, there was no requirement to obtain a marriage license in colonial America. When you read the laws of the colonies and then the states, you see only two requirements for marriage. First, you had to obtain your parents permission to marry, and second, you had to post public notice of the marriage 5-15 days before the ceremony.

    Notice you had to obtain your parents permission. Back then you saw godly government displayed in that the State recognized the parents authority by demanding that the parents permission be obtained. Today, the all-encompassing ungodly State demands that their permission be obtained to marry.

    By issuing marriage licenses, the State is saying, "You don’t need your parents permission, you need our permission." If parents are opposed to their child’s marrying a certain person and refuse to give their permission, the child can do an end run around the parents authority by obtaining the State’s permission, and marry anyway. This is an invasion and removal of God-given parental authority by the State.

    5. When you marry with a marriage license, you are like a polygamist. From the State’s point of view, when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, but you are also marrying the State.

    The most blatant declaration of this fact that I have ever found is a brochure entitled "With This Ring I Thee Wed." It is found in county courthouses across Ohio where people go to obtain their marriage licenses. It is published by the Ohio State Bar Association. The opening paragraph under the subtitle "Marriage Vows" states, "Actually, when you repeat your marriage vows you enter into a legal contract. There are three parties to that contract. 1.You; 2. Your husband or wife, as the case may be; and 3. the State of Ohio."

    See, the State and the lawyers know that when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, you are marrying the State! You are like a polygamist! You are not just making a vow to your spouse, but you are making a vow to the State and your spouse. You are also giving undue jurisdiction to the State.

    When Does the State Have Jurisdiction Over a Marriage?

    God intended the State to have jurisdiction over a marriage for two reasons - 1). in the case of divorce, and 2). when crimes are committed i.e., adultery, bigamy. etc. Unfortunately, the State now allows divorce for any reason, and it does not prosecute for adultery.

    In either case, divorce or crime, a marriage license is not necessary for the courts to determine whether a marriage existed or not. What is needed are witnesses. This is why you have a best man and a maid of honor. They should sign the marriage certificate in your family Bible, and the wedding day guest book should be kept.

    Marriage was instituted by God, therefore it is a God-given right. According to Scripture, it is to be governed by the family, and the State only has jurisdiction in the cases of divorce or crime.

    History of Marriage Licenses in America



    George Washington was married without a marriage license. So, how did we come to this place in America where marriage licenses are issued?

    Historically, all the states in America had laws outlawing the marriage of blacks and whites. In the mid-1800’s, certain states began allowing interracial marriages or miscegenation as long as those marrying received a license from the state. In other words they had to receive permission to do an act which without such permission would have been illegal.

    Blacks Law Dictionary points to this historical fact when it defines "marriage license" as, "A license or permission granted by public authority to persons who intend to intermarry." "Intermarry" is defined in Black’s Law Dictionary as, "Miscegenation; mixed or interracial marriages."

    Give the State an inch and they will take a 100 miles (or as one elderly woman once said to me "10,000 miles.") Not long after these licenses were issued, some states began requiring all people who marry to obtain a marriage license. In 1923, the Federal Government established the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act (they later established the Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act). By 1929, every state in the Union had adopted marriage license laws.

    What Should We Do?

    Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses. Some have said to me, "If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren’t really married." Given the fact that states may soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, "If a man and a man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a State marriage license - who’s really married? Is it the two men with a marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In reality, this contention that people are not really married unless they obtain a marriage license simply reveals how Statist we are in our thinking. We need to think biblically. (As for homosexuals marrying, outlaw sodomy as God's law demands, and there will be no threat of sodomites marrying.)

    You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently pushing to be made law.

    When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the marriage in the Family Bible. What’s recorded in a Family Bible will stand up as legal evidence in any court of law in America. Early Americans were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriages in their Family Bibles. So should we.

    (Pastor Trewhella has been marrying couples without marriage licenses for ten years. Many other pastors also refuse to marry couples with State marriage licenses.)

    This pamphlet is not comprehensive in scope. Rather, the purpose of this pamphlet is to make you think and give you a starting point to do further study of your own.


    Mercy Seat Christian Church)

    and also please take a look at this.

    This is the example of a marriage covenant authored by John Joseph and posted by request:

    Covenant to Cleave One to Another

    John James, a Good and Lawful Christian Man, solely by the grace of God, by, in and through Christ Jesus, our Sovereign Lord and Savior:

    And,

    Mary Hannah, a Good and Lawful Christian Woman, solely by the grace of God, by, in and through Christ Jesus, our Sovereign Lord and Savior,

    In the Name and by the Authority of our Sovereign Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, being one Mind in Him, we send Greetings and Salutations from Him and ourselves to all Whom these Presents come:

    On this sixth day, of the sixth month, in the two thousandth Year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ, before God our Father, His Son Christ Jesus, His Spirit bearing Witness with our spirit, and all Good and Lawful Christians,

    that:

    I, John James, before the almighty Host in heaven, and all whom these Presents come, declare:

    that, God our father, by, in and through our Sovereign Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, in His Love and Mercy for me, has adjudged me worthy of the blessings of and from His Bounty, and has blessed me by choosing an help, whom He calls Mary Hannah, meet for me, in all ways, for our sojourn here, solely here with Him in this world: to Love herein the same way and to the same degree He loved His church; to Honor her, as the weaker vessel, by covering and protecting her from all assaults, of whatever kind or description, to her; to be co-heir with me in all the Blessings of our Lord Christ Jesus and His Bounty; to be co-executor with me in executing the Righteous Law and Testament of God our Father and Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior in bringing up the Seed with which He blesses us; to help me execute His Law and Testament in all our external temporal affairs in this world for His Glory, Majesty and Dignity; And , forsake all other women and cleave to her alone, so we are in all maters One flesh and One mind in Christ Jesus;

    And,

    I, Mary Hannah, before the almighty Host in heaven, and all whom these presents come, declare:

    that, God our father, by, in and through our Sovereign Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, in His Love and Mercy, has chosen and brought me to help the man whom He calls John James, and has adjudged me meet for Him, in all ways, for our sojourn here, solely with Him in this world; to be Loved, covered and protected by him through submitting faithfully to him in Love as unto our Lord Christ Jesus; to be co-heir with him in all the Blessings of our lord Christ Jesus and his Bounty; to be co-executor with him in executing the Righteous Law and Testament of God our Father and Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior in bringing up the Seed with which He blesses us; to help me execute His Law and Testament in all our external temporal affairs in this world for His Glory, Majesty and Dignity; And , forsake all other men and cleave to him alone, so we are in all maters One flesh and One mind in Christ Jesus;

    And,

    By the grace of god bestowed in His Love for and upon us, we submit ourselves to his Righteous Rule and Government, and pray earnestly that our Lord Christ Jesus will govern our House in His Love exercised in Judgement and Mercy for our reproof and correction, for He chastises those whom He Loves; that in His Love He builds our House with blessings from His Bounty for His Glory and Majesty; that our Love for each other will grow stronger in Him who has brought and bound us together with and In Him to reconcile us to God our Father.

    By God's Grace in and through Christ Jesus, we are:



    John James Zebedee ___________________________ L.S. helped by, loving, covering, and protecting:



    Mary Hannah Zebedee __________________________L.S. loving, helping, covered and protected, Amen.



    On this sixth day, of the sixth month in the two thousandth Year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, before God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, His Spirit bearing Witness with our spirit, and all good and Lawful Christians, we, being Good and Lawful Christians, witnessed the making of this union between john James and Mary Hannah and by our signatures attest to our approbation of their union, and Bless them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.



    _____________________ L.S.

    sign manual

    _____________________ L.S.

    sign manual

    Amen




    Last edited by rizen1; 06-30-10 at 01:20 PM.
    Truth is stranger than Fiction-unknown
    Test all things -1Thess5:21

  2. #2
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    God tells us to obey the law of the land and unless they directly contradict His Word (a higher authority) then that should be fine. I believe a legal marriage valid in His eyes however if one feels they need to do more then they should follow their conscience before God.
    Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for responding.

    Can two people perform their own ceremony privately or with intimate family members without a pastor/priest/rabbi. This might seem like a silly question but I've been contemplating what is a marriage ceremony and when does God recognize a man and woman as a married coupled.

    I believe sex, seals the deal. I heard one girl say " when a woman have sex with multiple men they all become her husband.

    What's your take on that ?
    Also what's your view on the Covenant form ?

    I really like it and plan to do that first and only get the license after for legal record of property sharing. I also did research and there are pastors who would not wed anyone with a license. I didn't know this. Everyone including the church say you must get the license before you can have the ceremony.

    But it made sense why the church would recommend the license, they have to answer to the IRS, for their 501 corporate status ( tax exemption ). They can risk losing their Government benefits by not abiding to their laws.
    Thanks God bless


    Truth is stranger than Fiction-unknown
    Test all things -1Thess5:21

  4. #4
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    My thoughts are simple, if the Bible encourages us to follow the laws of the land then we should do so. This can also greatly simplify legal matters later including inheritance issues for any children. If it is worth doing it is worth doing right.
    Marriage is indeed a covenant no matter who is performing the ceremony but is there any harm in doing it in a legal fashion?
    Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

  5. #5
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    I understand the legal man made law part, it's needed in time of divorce, death , taxes and buying property.

    But the spiritual aspect I'm concern about, the license benefits the body obtaining earthly things or material things. I'm trying to find out what people think about the covenant form.

    Also what valid dates a marriage the license or sex ?

    thanks in advance for your response.
    Truth is stranger than Fiction-unknown
    Test all things -1Thess5:21

  6. #6
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    From Webster's Dictionary of the English Language:

    Marriage
    MAR'RIAGE, n. [L.mas, maris.] The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity,and for securing the maintenance and education of children.

    Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled. Heb 13

    1. A feast made on the occasion of a marriage.

    The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage for his son. Mat 22.

    2. In a scriptural sense, the union between Christ and his church by the covenant of grace. Rev 19.


    Again these are just my opinions:
    Any two folks can have sex, that does not equal marriage.
    When two hearts are committed to walking with God and each other then there should be a public ceremony as public confession of Covenant is certainly Biblical.
    Marriage is a union, a communion and a public commitment before man and God.
    Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

  7. #7
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    I'm still shocked that the dictionary actually had man and woman...usually states when two people or partners.

    Thanks for your response.

    In biblical traditional times did a feast take place among everyone inlcuding those who were poor?
    Where did the celebration orgins come from?

    Are there biblical guidelines to marriage ceremonies?

    Is a priest or pastor required ?

    Also at what point can a Christian say " this law of the land I will not follow " and be ok with that decision.

    Last edited by rizen1; 07-08-10 at 05:58 PM.
    Truth is stranger than Fiction-unknown
    Test all things -1Thess5:21

  8. #8
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    Wedding ceremonies are not specifically addressed in the New Testament yet we can certainly see that they are mentioned multiple times.
    Marriage I believe (in God's eyes) is a covenant between a man and a woman and ones culture plays into the exact details of that ceremony.
    There is nothing about a traditional church wedding that is anti-biblical and I truly believe the Lord does not want us hung up on ceremony and ritual to the point of legalism. This point is especially valid in view of the limited data we are given on Biblical marriage ceremonies.
    One thing for sure, marriage is a covenant between husband and wife before God:
    Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
    As far as disobeying the law of the land; since we are specifically told to obey those laws we had best be sure they are in direct conflict with the letter and heart of scripture.
    Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by rizen1 View Post
    In biblical traditional times did a feast take place among everyone inlcuding those who were poor?
    Luke 14: 1-24 tells of Jesus' attendance at a dinner at a Phasrisee's home on a Sabbath day.

    In that day in Israel it was believed that if you were rich (like the Pharisees) you were favored by God and if you were poor, it was because God had rejected you. So the guest list was limited to the elite. Jesus blew that caste system out of the water so to speak when He told them (vv 13-14) to invite the poor, the lame, and the blind to their feasts.

    I'd like to have been there and listened to them huffing and puffing and gagging at that idea: "Give these losers dignity by inviting them into my house?!!, he's got to be out of his mind."

    SLE
    I want to be a coin in God's pocket that He can spend any way He wishes.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by SpiritLedEd View Post
    I'd like to have been there and listened to them huffing and puffing and gagging at that idea: "Give these losers dignity by inviting them into my house?!!, he's got to be out of his mind."

    SLE
    I can see it unfolding before my eyes..lol:angel::shock:
    Truth is stranger than Fiction-unknown
    Test all things -1Thess5:21

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