Well then I'm afraid we cannot call God "existing" in or out of time. The human term that we coin as "existing" is be our very definition implied that time is essential for it. I'm sorry... God can be in and out of time, but in the human context of existing, God cannot exist in and out of time, unless God is irrational. And I doubt you'd be willing to adopt that idea, nor would I.

According to the forum policies, you need to give us a scripture reference that supports your statement. If you are going to make non-scripture based statements, I can not accept your argument as being rational or valid.

If you disagree with the validity of the Word of God, I say you are on the wrong argument and should be arguing the Bible's validity as the fully inspired and God-breathed texts.If this is the case, I am more than willing to talk with you about the scriptures being true or not.

In conclusion, if you are saying that God doesn't exist both inside and outside of time, your argument is not with me... it is with my Living God. I give you not my opinion of my philosophical view. I give you my interpretation of what the Lord has said about who He is.

In Him,
David

Originally Posted by Turbopun

According to the forum policies, you need to give us a scripture reference that supports your statement. If you are going to make non-scripture based statements, I can not accept your argument as being rational or valid.....

...In conclusion, if you are saying that God doesn't exist both inside and outside of time, your argument is not with me... it is with my Living God. I give you not my opinion of my philosophical view. I give you my interpretation of what the Lord has said about who He is.

In Him,
David

Turbo,
Not to point out the obvious but you really haven't presented any scriptural support for your argument either. The only one I see is Rev. 1:8 which doesn't really support your view of God being outside of time but rather places Him within the framework of time; He was in the past, is in the present, and will be in the future. Also, wouldn't your "interpretation of what the Lord has said about who He is" be based from an opinion stemming from a philosophical view?

If you have more proof texts of God being outside of time then please list them so we can discuss them. I would even like to read a logical explanation of how/when something can exist outside of time.

Pedro

Originally Posted by Pedronewt

Turbo,
Not to point out the obvious but you really haven't presented any scriptural support for your argument either. The only one I see is Rev. 1:8 which doesn't really support your view of God being outside of time but rather places Him within the framework of time; He was in the past, is in the present, and will be in the future. Also, wouldn't your "interpretation of what the Lord has said about who He is" be based from an opinion stemming from a philosophical view?

If you have more proof texts of God being outside of time then please list them so we can discuss them. I would even like to read a logical explanation of how/when something can exist outside of time.

Pedro

Hey Pedro,

Although I believe that Revelation 1:8 ESV is more than sufficient to hold water in this discussion, I will provide more.

Genesis 1:1 ESV
This verse says that in the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth. Before this there was no heavens and no earth. The question on at this point in my opinion is whether or not God is infinite in His existence.
How can you measure infinity? Therefore, here is the basis of that question.

Wikipedia's definition of time
Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.

So, time requires a beginning and an end. Time started when God created the heavens and the earth which required space. (Genesis 1:1 ESV) says "In the beginning". Before there was a beginning, there was the Father and the Son in perfect harmony. (John 1:1 ESV)

So in order for God to create "the beginning", He would have had to have been there already to create it.

Isaiah 57:15 ESV
God is eternal.

Psalm 139:13 ESV
However we were created at a point in time to become eternal beings (John 3:16 ESV).


However, God also is in the affairs of men. When we receive His salvation, we receive it in a moment in time. He sent His son to this earth and was born at a specific appointed time (Galatians 4:4 ESV). Things have appointed times which by definition is measurable and therefore since God is on control of all things must delve into the affairs of men at given times that He sees fit.

wow... well presented bro. May the Lord continue to bless you as you stay unmovable with your convictions..


I myself am fully convince God existed already outside time. God declared it.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

eternity often simply means existing for a limitless amount of time, many have used it to refer to a timeless existence altogether outside of time. (Wikipedia)

..........

Originally Posted by Turbopun

Hey Pedro,

Although I believe that Revelation 1:8 ESV is more than sufficient to hold water in this discussion, I will provide more.

Genesis 1:1 ESV
This verse says that in the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth. Before this there was no heavens and no earth. The question on at this point in my opinion is whether or not God is infinite in His existence.
How can you measure infinity? Therefore, here is the basis of that question.

Wikipedia's definition of time
Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.

So, time requires a beginning and an end. Time started when God created the heavens and the earth which required space. (Genesis 1:1 ESV) says "In the beginning". Before there was a beginning, there was the Father and the Son in perfect harmony. (John 1:1 ESV)

So in order for God to create "the beginning", He would have had to have been there already to create it.

Isaiah 57:15 ESV
God is eternal.

Psalm 139:13 ESV
However we were created at a point in time to become eternal beings (John 3:16 ESV).


However, God also is in the affairs of men. When we receive His salvation, we receive it in a moment in time. He sent His son to this earth and was born at a specific appointed time (Galatians 4:4 ESV). Things have appointed times which by definition is measurable and therefore since God is on control of all things must delve into the affairs of men at given times that He sees fit.

Did God exist before the universe was created? Yes.

Did time exist before the universe was created? No. There was no need for it.

Conclusion: God has to exist outside of time since he existed before it came into being.

SLE

Turbo,
I will respond to your points but I would first like to recommend you read through my other submissions to this thread. This will help with having to restate previous positions.

Originally Posted by Turbopun

Hey Pedro,

Although I believe that Revelation 1:8 ESV is more than sufficient to hold water in this discussion, I will provide more.

Genesis 1:1 ESV
This verse says that in the beginning that God created the heavens and the earth. Before this there was no heavens and no earth. The question on at this point in my opinion is whether or not God is infinite in His existence.
How can you measure infinity? Therefore, here is the basis of that question.

The highest number we have named is called "googol." Can we count higher; yes. Just because people don't count higher doesn't mean the numbers don't exist. Eternity is to time what infinity is to numbers. We can't count infinity because numbers keep going, just like we can't measure eternity because time keeps going. Infinity and eternity both speak of an indefinite end, they are not a point at which number or time no longer exist.

Wikipedia's definition of time
Time is a component of a measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.

So, time requires a beginning and an end. Time started when God created the heavens and the earth which required space. (Genesis 1:1 ESV) says "In the beginning". Before there was a beginning, there was the Father and the Son in perfect harmony. (John 1:1 ESV)

Your implication that "time requires a beginning and an end" is not stated within the definition. You are forcing the definition of a "segment" onto that of a "line." Man tends to view time as a "ray", starting at the creation of our universe (Gen.1:1) mainly because we have no external means by which to measure what God did before. But, that doesn't mean that events, which take time, weren't happening. For example, we have no real framework for when angels were created or how long they existed before God created man. "In the beginning" is only the starting point from which we begin to measure the existence of man.

I still have not seen explained how something can exist without time or given any scripture that shows something existing without time . I've only seen scriptures that show how God has experienced time for an endless duration (eternity).

If you say something exists outside of time and I ask "at what time then did it exist", would not the correct response be "at no time did it exist."

Hey Pedro,

If God created everything, that means God created time. That means he would have had to have been there beforehand to create it which means he was outside of it.

I have provided more than sufficient scripture to answer your questions. You appear to disagree with my stance for which case I am not hear to debate and also will respect. I believe that my point tied with scripture and definition of time is very clear.

If you have a counter argument, you then need to display scripture that is relevant to your perspective. Like I have said before, this is not about my philosophical point of view. I am just going by what I believe scripture says.

Show me valid scripture and I then will be able to accept your point of view though I may not necessarily agree with it.

As I previously suggested, please read my earlier posts before responding. I would gladly trade scripture ref.s with you all day, but I think they all show God existing at some point in time.

Genesis 1:1 describes how God formed our universe from the beginning. It says nothing about the beginning or creation of all time. That comes from a theological presupposition.
Rev. 1:8 places God within the framework of time; He was in the past, is in the present, and will be in the future.
John 1:1 - places Jesus with God in time at a beginning; beginning of what, all time or the creation account?
Isaiah 57:15 - God is eternal or has existed for an endless duration through time past and will exist for an endless duration into the future.

Time is a unit of measure, or a means to describe, and is not in itself a physical thing. It is used to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.(your def.) So, if God existed, talked between the Godhead, had imaginations, made plans about creation, did anything or just plain "was" before Gen. 1:1, then time can be used to explain those sequence or duration of events.


You disagree with me, that's fine, but for discussion sake, please explain how anything can exist in reality without the existence of some portion of time. I believe this is your stance towards God and would like to see you expound more upon it.
Some other questions would be, When was the beginning of all time? Did God exist before then, if so how long? If God is "in" time, do you think that He would be limited by it, if so why and how?

I hope these questions foster an atmosphere of discussion. I look forward to reading your response.

Originally Posted by Pedronewt

As I previously suggested, please read my earlier posts before responding. I would gladly trade scripture ref.s with you all day, but I think they all show God existing at some point in time.

Genesis 1:1 describes how God formed our universe from the beginning. It says nothing about the beginning or creation of all time. That comes from a theological presupposition.
Rev. 1:8 places God within the framework of time; He was in the past, is in the present, and will be in the future.
John 1:1 - places Jesus with God in time at a beginning; beginning of what, all time or the creation account?
Isaiah 57:15 - God is eternal or has existed for an endless duration through time past and will exist for an endless duration into the future.

Time is a unit of measure, or a means to describe, and is not in itself a physical thing. It is used to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.(your def.) So, if God existed, talked between the Godhead, had imaginations, made plans about creation, did anything or just plain "was" before Gen. 1:1, then time can be used to explain those sequence or duration of events.


You disagree with me, that's fine, but for discussion sake, please explain how anything can exist in reality without the existence of some portion of time. I believe this is your stance towards God and would like to see you expound more upon it.
Some other questions would be, When was the beginning of all time? Did God exist before then, if so how long? If God is "in" time, do you think that He would be limited by it, if so why and how?

I hope these questions foster an atmosphere of discussion. I look forward to reading your response.

Hey Pedro,


Valid argument from your part and I respect it.

You are right, as far as this point in my life I stand firm in the convictions from scripture that I have seen thus far.


This to me answers your question on eternity. Let's come back to the definition of time again.

to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them

If eternity has no beginning and no end, how can it be measured? If I tell you to measure when God began you couldn't. This therefore means he lives outside of time. There is no scripture that states when God began to exist. I have provided scripture (Rev 1:8) already that says "He was..." It doesn't say "He was at this time, is and will always be" It says, "He was, He is, and always will be".

"He was". Period. This more than clearly implies that He has always been. Not always been since XXXX date. It just says He was. He Is. He is to come.

He has no beginning. Therefore "the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 has to refer to creation since God has no beginning.

I hope I have provided a clear answer to you.