So if I wee to start an all womens church would I be able to pastor it then? What about all the prophtesses I spoke about earlier?

Would it be better for a man unsuited for pastoring a church or being a youth leader to take my place as a youth leader without the annointing or gifts that God has blessed me with?

Next time God says Alicia go to the front of the congreagtion and tell the people that a great change in your church is coming am I to say no Lord I am a female I cant do that?

If God gives me a great leadership quality and puts me in a leadership role in a deliverance sessiopn and there are males present and God tells me to order one of the males to leave the room then he doesn't have to listen does he because I am a woman?

God sees no race!!!!! God sees no male nor female does He? I am as much a part of the Bride of Christ as my fellow brothersbut bride is a female object so then all males are actually female in God's eyes. We represent Female and Christ Male.

I am sure that Timothy being a youth and unexperienced in church leadership probably might have had maybe a female who was a false teacher in his church or the women were very seductive and could seduce the congregation into false beliefs and so Paul told him not to allow women to talk but rather just man.

If we are to take the bible just as it is then we should have widow marrying their brother in laws. We should have first born sons recieving everyting and not the woman anythiung. We should not be dating as it is not spoken of in the bible. We should have men takinfg a year off of all responsibilties when they first get married to look after their wives.

Does this whole issue not remind you of how the Pharisies told Jesus that Hids disciples did not wash thier hands before they ate and Jesus replied that it just went threw the body and out again and had no influence on mans cleanliness.

So the same if a women is called by God who are we as man to say no God I am a woman I can't because in a ctual fact we can't no one can ONLY GOD CAN DO IT AND IF HE CHOOSES TO USE A WOMEN THEN I WOULDNT GET IN HIS WAY.

I dont serve a God who told men that they could do all things threw christ who strengthens them. I believe that that verse I can do ALLL THINGS threw Christ who strengthens me applies as much to me as any male on this planet.

I am not questioning the female to submit under her God placed male authorities but I am saying that God has made exceptions before. He has changed His mind before Just think of how He wanted to kill Israel and Moses changed His mind by pleading with Him.

God made both male and female in His image. He loves us both equally. God does not have preferences. I am NOT IN A RELIGION.THESE ARE RELIGIOUS LAWS!!!!!!! I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP AND I AM FREE TO TALK ABOUT HIM WHENEVER I WANT AS HE IS MY FRIST LOVE. HE IS MY GROOM, SAVIOUR AND MASSIAH.

I say all this i love but I really don't agree with the statement that a women may not lead. There is more to this verse and I pray God will open it uo ro us because Hei is not a God of ritual but of intimate relationship.

Be bless

Awaiting your replie

Your sister in Christ

So if I wee to start an all womens church would I be able to pastor it then?

Has God asked you to do this, or is this something you want to do for Him?

I am sure that Timothy being a youth and unexperienced in church leadership probably might have had maybe a female who was a false teacher in his church or the women were very seductive and could seduce the congregation into false beliefs and so Paul told him not to allow women to talk but rather just man.

Pure speculation.

God sees no race!!!!! God sees no male nor female does He? I am as much a part of the Bride of Christ as my fellow brothersbut bride is a female object so then all males are actually female in God's eyes. We represent Female and Christ Male.

This is a contradiction, either God sees it or He doesn't, so which is it?

God made both male and female in His image. He loves us both equally. God does not have preferences. I am NOT IN A RELIGION.THESE ARE RELIGIOUS LAWS!!!!!!! I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP AND I AM FREE TO TALK ABOUT HIM WHENEVER I WANT AS HE IS MY FRIST LOVE. HE IS MY GROOM, SAVIOUR AND MASSIAH.

What scripture do you base your statement on both male and female being made in the image of God?

So the same if a women is called by God who are we as man to say no God I am a woman I can't because in a ctual fact we can't no one can ONLY GOD CAN DO IT AND IF HE CHOOSES TO USE A WOMEN THEN I WOULDNT GET IN HIS WAY.

Sounds like you have already justified yourself and made up your mind.

I would like to pose a question now: Why are men a Children's Pastor, and women are called a Children's Director? What's the difference? So....women are good enough to conceive and bear children, but not to be a minister over them?

Sorry I can't answer your question, but I can say that this is one of the differences between the religious institution and the Church that Jesus is building. It's impossible to get goofed up like that following Jesus, that only happens from following man. If you study church history you can see the evidence of this all through the ages. Man makes messes. I suggest you try not to focus on what man does, permits, initiates and regulates, but rather focus on Christ.

Originally Posted by alicia_charne

Is this verse final does it mean I can't become a pastor. It can't be can it?
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I know in the time when Paul was living women wasn't allowed to speak in public places. But now I understand that when we have the holy spirit it has no gender the holy spirit isn't male or female. And we have the ability to speak thus says the Lord. There were deaconess in Paul days and stuff forth I know i hear some powerful women preachers and God isn't a respector of person and if we think He is we limit the hand and the movement of God.

God uses whom ever He pleases and it is evident in the bible. We have a woman as a judge in the old testament her name was Deborah and we have other heroin of the bible. Like Rahab we have women that teaches us things like Ruth and Naomi.

Be Bless and Just know many are called but a few are chosen.

To me there seems to be different angles on this, but if 1Tim 2:12 says it is not ok for women to preach, then I might have to agree with the Word of God, but like someone already said how do you explain women like Joyce Meyers, who I believe is a great teacher who has struggled against opposition along the way but has stood strong in her conviction and ministers to thousands.
And I have to add that Dreamer, I love your humour, your post had such valid points and was so funny....Andrew Charne ......its true though.

Calluna

We must remember the Spirit of God and the spiritual gifts are given equally to men and women in today’s Church in accordance with Joel’s prophecy found in Joel 2:28-32; the fulfilment of which happened on the day of Pentecost and recorded in Acts 2:14-18 New Living Translation:

14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15 These people are not drunk, as some of you are assuming. Nine o’clock in the morning is much too early for that. 16 No, what you see was predicted long ago by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
even on my servants—men and women alike—
and they will prophesy.

I believe it would be contrary to the Word of God to quench the Spirits Fire where a woman is responding to the Holy Spirit in Church in accordance with Joel's Prophesy. Indeed we are severely warned in 1 Thessalonians 5:19:20 (Amplified Bible), “Do not quench (suppress or subdue) the [Holy] Spirit; do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning]."

Calluna, I love you It would be very difficult Not to love you!

Actually....I was a bit angry...just a little...when I posted that stuff about puppetry and clowning....I guess....I can't understand why it is acceptable for me to preach in creative ways, but not directly. It seems to offend people if I open the bible and preach directly. It offends men especially. And if what the Word says to them as I speak convicts their heart, some have tended to blame their anger on me, as a woman, instead of being angry at God, for supplying us with His Holy Word!

I used to be quite bold back in the day---in my 30's. When I gave my heart to Christ, it was a true conversion, like Saul to Paul....people noticed right off that I was different, and there was no doubt in my mind, either. After Christ, I began walking with my shoulders straight, my eyes up off the floor, looking at people in the eyes, smiling!

I saw a sign on a church post this morning as I was taking my husband to work. It said, "Burdens Are Lifted At Calvary" I took a deep breath inward and thanked my God, because I truly know He does lift my burdens and is doing so even on this very day! But, to tell you the truth, when I was in my 20's....I was a foul-mouthed young lady---I put down everything with great sarcasm, everything that had to do with God, Jesus, and church. I was so hard and bitter. And I felt so unloved.

That church sign that inspired me so much this morning?....Just a mere 20 years ago....I would have outwardly mocked that sign with venemous words.

What changed me and converted me more than anything else was God's love. It is still unbelievable to me that He sent His own Son to die for me! I'll never get over that, and I don't want to become complacent about that!

I do feel and have always felt---since Feb. 17, 1991 that I am called by God to do special work for Him. I'm not supposed to be sitting on my laurels letting people pass by without telling them about Christ. I'm not even supposed to search out a job in which I cannot be free to tell others about Christ. I'm not making this up. God has His hand on me. And just because I happen to be a woman, I am not going to pass by opportunities to tell others about Christ's love. That would be sin! Jesus reigns.:sun:

P.S. I personally would not be comfortable taking any position where I was to lead or be over men
on a daily basis, because of certain scriptures which have already been quoted in this thread.
However, if any church ever offered me a position as a "Childrens Director" or "Womens'
Ministry Director", I would pray about it fervently, and if it was God's will, you betcha!
I'd love to be in the ministry full time. In fact, God promised me I would be in the ministry
full-time. So I know that time will come some day. Is God a liar? No! He cannot lie!

We have seen scripture being quoted for 'women to keep silent' and not to 'lord it over the man' etc. We love the scriptures. This is what separates the church from all other 'faiths'

However if I were to take the position that a women cannot be Pastor.....etc. I would be a hypocrite.

5 miles either side of my home I have women Pastors, and they are precious sisters too. On my left I see a lady taking on a church pioneer work in a downtown, difficult mining area, in a wooden hut, 25 years ago. Today I see a new purpose built edifice, seating 200, and a congregation of 40 folks, supporting the lady Pastor today, and also a young bible school graduate as Assistant Pastor. This lady has never married and without doubt is subject to the local region of Assemblies of God.

The other is a married lady. Subject to her husband at home I am sure, but Pastor of the Christian fellowship. Another pioneer work, now 10 years old and a congregation of 40 people.

No man would have taken on these situations. Well, none came forward.

The word 'Pastor' as I am sure you are aware, means shepherd. I have witnessed churches emptied, fellowships broken, people scattered, by men who could preach, they knew the book, indeed......but had no idea, or desire, how to Pastor. There interest lay elsewhere......££$$

When Paul said "the husband of one wife" etc. regarding Bishops. The converse may well have applied "the wife of one husband" because the issue was one of morality.

Paul was speaking to a specific culture. The Jewish culture. Keep your hat on lady, you are in subjection. MmMm

Deborah, in the old testament was a Judge of Israel......read about her exploits Judges 4 v 4 onwards. The song of Deborah ch 5. A mighty lady, and greatest person in the land. A women......indeed.

Romans ch 16 Paul gives tribute to helpers......MmMm Junia a lady Apostle....and other ladies also. My ministerial life is enriched

The West sends lady missionaries to the continents of India, Africa, S. America etc........There they pastor, minister to those in need. Build churches, gather congregations......and so on. When they come home...they are ..................

In Acts ch 18 Paul met a couple, Aquila and Priscila. Notice here that the man takes precedence....... Interesting to observe that in Romans ch 16 Paul gives Priscilla the lead......talking of Priscilla and Aquilla, the roles are reversed. Why? ..........the lady takes the lead?

As I said in a previous post, we are talking about "gifting" This is church. It is about gifting. About the Holy Spirit empowering His church.

"Leadership is Male" says D.Pawson Perish the thought.

Let us open our hearts to what Jesus wants to do in the world today.

Lord Jesus help us..........O God you alone can help your church

Frankly a person can make a lot of arguments about a lot of things, but in this case scripture is clear. Any excuse is just that, an excuse, no matter how lovely the results or etc. seem. You can point out what this women, or that women may have done, and that's all well and good, but it is outside of God's design. Clearly outside.

I'm not posting on this forum to argue with anybody, but at this point: I am not sure why this thread was posted. It is clear that your mind is made up. It's not like you are arguing with those posting in counter view, you are arguing with God. If the scripture was unclear I could understand a debate, but in an area so clear why obscure the issue? Just because it is "culturally" ok doesn't change anything in God's eyes.

God didn't declare this because women are somehow inferior mentally, but they are different by design. God designed men for some roles, and women for others. The talk about a "spirit being genderless" doesn't mean the person inhabited by the spirit becomes genderless. A marriage is a symbol of Christ to the church. That symbolism is used again and again. The believers are his bride; are we then to teach him?



On a final note, I can't say that it wouldn't be hard for me if I were a women who wanted to pastor. Honestly it would seem like a waste for God not to use a person in such a way, but I know that his way is better, he knows more, in fact he knows everything. So though it may seem incorrect to us for so many reasons, God is always right, he is just plain wiser, just knows more, just understands better. Women do things that men can't, and men things that women can't. Out of speculation I think that possibly God would forbid a "stay at home dad" as much as he would a woman pastor. Even if the Father was gifted at raising children and etc. A woman was God's choice for cultivating a Godly offspring and family. Different by divine design. God's design is always beautiful when we follow it no matter how dark the tunnel may seem. God Bless you all.

Originally Posted by stephen

"Leadership is Male" says D.Pawson Perish the thought.

Let us open our hearts to what Jesus wants to do in the world today.

Lord Jesus help us..........O God you alone can help your church

I actually agree with what you are expounding Stephen. Perhaps you can help me here; does Scripture tell us that a Pastor is "Leadership" or a "Servant"?

It appears to me that you may not have read Pawsons "Leadership is Male". David accepts woman as Pastors where a man is proven to be Spiritually ineffective or unwilling.

David is on record as having had a conversation with a Vicar who had heard him preach on this subject. The Vicar asked David why his congregation consisted mostly of old women. David suggested that was because there was, effectively, one in the pulpit.

Think, prayerfully, about that.